Will Bron END UP the GOAT?
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I think he day drinks. A lot.
You don’t want a stat argument. And I don’t have time for it right now. Maybe tomorrow at work.
How about the 62 playoff games leading his team in scoring, rebounding, AND assists. 2nd place duncan and Bird w 21. How about Bron being a better 3 point shooter than MJ? How about Bron being able to guard anyone on the floor at anytime? And on and on it goes... I’ll check back in tomorrow. Long live the king.
Who?
Scottie Pippen is better overall player than anyone Lebron has ever played with. Dwayne Wade might be comparable, but 2011-12 (Brons first title year) he only played in 49 games. The next repeat title season, he played in 69.
MJ's last 3 of his titles were with the best rebounder in history Dennis Rodman, all time great Scottie Pippen (who led the Bulls to 55 wins after Jordan retired the first time), Tony Kukoc, Steve Kerr - who averaged 48% from 3 from 95-97. Something else to note is that the 3pt line was moved 21" closer from 95-97.
Lebron has had an injury-plagued Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for 2 of his titles (and 37 year old Ray Allen for the 2nd one). He had Kyrie for the Cleveland title, and Kevin Love (who you could argue was not as good as Tony Kukoc in 98). Other than that, his teams have been scrubs. Delladova is a bum, Tristan Thompson is a bum, JR Smith is a bum, Shumpert is a bum.
Lebron for sure played with more talent and it’s not even close. Mj had Pippen. Lebron had Bosh, Wade, Allen, kyrie, Love. Pippen and MJ were the only two all stars on the squad. The heat had 3 all stars in Lebron, wade and Bosh. Cleveland had 3 as well with Lebron, Irving and Love.
None here. Kobe should also be in the discussion, but this is a Bron vs. MJ thread
Other players loved playing with Bron and MJ. Those 2 made the players around them better. After Shaq left no one was running to LA to play with him. Kobe is at least top 10.
You don’t want a stat argument. And I don’t have time for it right now. Maybe tomorrow at work.
How about the 62 playoff games leading his team in scoring, rebounding, AND assists. 2nd place duncan and Bird w 21. How about Bron being a better 3 point shooter than MJ? How about Bron being able to guard anyone on the floor at anytime? And on and on it goes... I’ll check back in tomorrow. Long live the king.
I don't know what to do with the 62 game stat. I mean it's cool but it's a little arbitrary, no? LeBron is a better 3 point shooter. Not by much; teams would be fine with him hanging out behind the arc and shooting 3's against them, but better, nonetheless. Jordan's a better FT shooter. Cool.
LeBron can consistently defend SG-PF. Him defending elite PGs for more than a few possessions would be a problem for him and he'd have mixed results against elite Centers. Jordan could consistently defend PG-SF. PF would have mixed results and Center would be a problem. Seems like a wash.
Look at Pippen's stats. People seem to forget that Chris Bosh was dominant. He wasn't just good, he was dominant. Bosh was equally as good as Pippen, adjusted for position. Dwayne Wade was injury prone but also elite when healthy. So to say LeBron didn't have talent like Pippen is just not true. Kyrie was offensively better than Pippen and Kevin Love is still an offensive monster. Neither plays defense like Scottie did, but I digress.
Rodman could board and outlet. Sweet. Are you suggesting LeBron didn't play with Forwards more valuable than Rodman's rebounding? Come on.
Kukoc was good. Not great, but good. LeBron has played with a bunch of guys at Kukoc's caliber. Kerr was an assassin from deep but, at his peak, shot three 3-pointers per game. Three...
JR Smith is not a bum. Tristan Thompson is not a bum. And Shumpert is a defensive specialist. Delladova is a bum; a bum who's stats aren't far off from the great Steve Kerr lol.
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LeBron tells everyone how great he is.......people told jordan how great he was.
Pippen between 1990 and 1998, averaged 20.0ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.0apg, 2.2spg, 0.9bpg. He was an All-Star for 7 of those 9 seasons.
Kyrie on Cleveland from 2012-2017 averaged 21.6ppg, 3.4rpg, 5.5apg, 1.3spg. 0.3bpg. He was an All-Star in 4 of those 6 seasons (though not in the 2016 title year).
Bosh was much better between 2005-2010, than he was in Miami. 2010-11 to 2014 (last season with Lebron) he averaged 17.3ppg, 7.4rpg, 1.6apg. Between 2005-2010, he averaged 22.8ppg, 9.9rpg. 2.5apg.
Pippen > Kyrie or Bosh
Pippen was better than Kyrie because of his defense, but offensively, as you pointed out, it was a wash. Pippen got more boards by virtue of his position. Take two guys who have never touched a basketball before, play one at SF and one at PG and the guy at SF will get at least double the boards just by the nature of the position. Kyrie was a more efficient shooter.
Bosh had to share with LeBron AND Wade (who still played a lot of games). Pippen had to share with just Jordan. Bosh's stats with the Raptors prove his value, imo.
Don’t forget Ray Allen! They never would’ve won without his clutch threes. Best shooter to ever live imo.
Pippen was a better PG, than Kyrie is as a PG.
More assists, more rebounds, better defender. The only thing Kyrie has on him is barely scoring more per game (on more shots) and a better shooter from distance.
Not a rip on Kyrie either. Pippen was just an incredible all around player. Not many dudes can average 20, 7, and 6+.
Year before lebron returned to Cleveland they won 33 games, then lost in finals first season he got there. After Jordan retired first time, Pippen led then to 55 wins and the second round of the playoffs.
More assists, more rebounds, better defender. The only thing Kyrie has on him is barely scoring more per game (on more shots) and a better shooter from distance.
Not a rip on Kyrie either. Pippen was just an incredible all around player. Not many dudes can average 20, 7, and 6+.
Year before lebron returned to Cleveland they won 33 games, then lost in finals first season he got there. After Jordan retired first time, Pippen led then to 55 wins and the second round of the playoffs.
Disagee. Jordan had a bigger ego than Kobe. Ironic they played for the same coach. Kobe is in my Top 6.
"Pippen was a better PG, than Kyrie is as a PG." You don't believe this.
The 'PG stats' are so close, they're effectively the same. If we dive into the advanced stats typically attributable to PGs, it's advantage Kyrie. Kyrie is clearly the better and more efficient scorer across the board. Pippen is clearly the better defender across the board.
The rebounds for both are about what one would expect from guys at those positions. Average. Pippen's assists are a tiny bit high for a SF, possibly by virtue of the Triangle Offense, which effectively eliminates the PG from typical PG duties after the first pass.
No. Just, no.
Ray Allen was far past his prime in Miami. He hit a monster 3, yeah, but let’s not pretend he was ballin out. He was like 60 years old by then. Not much of a different player than Korver this year. Ray was nothing special in ‘13. If they wanna win this year, they’ll need shots just like that from Korver. Ever heard of Paxson or Kerr? They hit some shots.
No doubt they both had egos including their coach but Kobe wasn't known to make his teammates better. Talented as he was why free agents didn't come to LA while he was there? Dwight Howard was there for a minute when he was an all star but he couldn't stand Kobe.
Ray was still money in Miami, don’t get it twisted. He had 20 point games multiple times and could explode any given night. Kerr and Paxton aren’t hall of famers like shuttlesworth is.
Haha. Solid take. And Kyle will never, ever be Jesus, buuuuuut....
2013 AD Ray: 25mpg, 41.9% from 3, 10.9ppg.
2018 Kyle: 24mpg, 43.6%, 9.2ppg
I love MJ but man it is impossible to not appreciate LeBron. Hard not to see what he does and just be amazed. I'm leaning towards putting LeBron as the GOAT.
Yeah he may not have the championships but the dude is seriously putting himself in the Jerry rice argument for GOAT. What I mean is Jerry Rice may not be the most talented WR of all time because he didn't have incredible speed or height but the dude was so good with everything else. His stats eclipse almost everyone else so much that it's hard really not to call Jerry the GOAT WR. It's also the Wayne Gretzky argument and Gretzky's stats. LeBron is doing that with his stats. He's going to put his overall stats in a crazy realm that may be untouchable from an overall standpoint. Decent chance he ends his career at the all-time leading scorer unless he finally hits that wall and his talent dips. Just hard to not appreciate what he is doing and I'm not a LeBron fan. I rooted for the Pacers and rooting for the Raptors right now.
Yeah he may not have the championships but the dude is seriously putting himself in the Jerry rice argument for GOAT. What I mean is Jerry Rice may not be the most talented WR of all time because he didn't have incredible speed or height but the dude was so good with everything else. His stats eclipse almost everyone else so much that it's hard really not to call Jerry the GOAT WR. It's also the Wayne Gretzky argument and Gretzky's stats. LeBron is doing that with his stats. He's going to put his overall stats in a crazy realm that may be untouchable from an overall standpoint. Decent chance he ends his career at the all-time leading scorer unless he finally hits that wall and his talent dips. Just hard to not appreciate what he is doing and I'm not a LeBron fan. I rooted for the Pacers and rooting for the Raptors right now.
Nobody ITT should get it twisted; LeBron is incredible and one of the best to ever play the game. He's just not better than Jordan.
So, Russell>Horry>MJ>Kobe. Got it.
I never got the whole rings don't matter thing. They definitely matter. There is obviously a huge difference between being the best or second best player on a title team and riding the bench on one the whole time. So when comparing LBJ to Kobe or Mike, rings are a HUGE factor.
Jordan truthers be like:
“Jordan’s bulls could beat the 2017/18 Warriors. Jordan’s supporting cast was awesome.”
“Wait wait, Jordan never played with all stars so his supporting cast wasn’t that good!”
“Jordan’s bulls could beat the 2017/18 Warriors. Jordan’s supporting cast was awesome.”
“Wait wait, Jordan never played with all stars so his supporting cast wasn’t that good!”
My good friend thinks Jordan is undeniably the best nba player of all time. He always cites titles.
He doesn’t think Tom Brady is the best QB of all time and dismisses titles.
Anyone that thinks one is the GOAT because of the titles but doesn’t also think the other is GOAT has a bias against one. In my friends case it’s that he A- grew up a Jordan fan, B- is a Packers fan (packer fans are delusional and can’t admit Brady > Aaron Rodgers).
He doesn’t think Tom Brady is the best QB of all time and dismisses titles.
Anyone that thinks one is the GOAT because of the titles but doesn’t also think the other is GOAT has a bias against one. In my friends case it’s that he A- grew up a Jordan fan, B- is a Packers fan (packer fans are delusional and can’t admit Brady > Aaron Rodgers).
It always comes back to this for me:
If I’m building a team, I’m taking Lebron every time because of his versatility and sheer dominance across multiple positions.
If I’m down by 10 and need buckets, or down by 2 with 5 seconds left, im taking Jordan because he is a better scorer than anyone I’ve ever seen play.
If I’m building a team, I’m taking Lebron every time because of his versatility and sheer dominance across multiple positions.
If I’m down by 10 and need buckets, or down by 2 with 5 seconds left, im taking Jordan because he is a better scorer than anyone I’ve ever seen play.
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