Michael Jordan didn't retreat to a new team every time he lost a Finals series
Edited: Because Jordan never lost a Finals series. LeBron has lost 5
Edited: Because Jordan never lost a Finals series. LeBron has lost 5
Will Bron END UP the GOAT?
- Thread starter 829305
- Start date
haha what?
So if Bron theoretically wins the title this year, next year, and every year for the next 5 years... he still won't be as good as MJ?
Counterpoint: So, Bron making it to the Finals and losing is worse than MJ not making it to the Finals?
Edit: I could also go with the classic MJ defense to many things, "It was a different era."
Much better shooter from where? Lebron is a better 3pt shooter than MJ. Bron also has a higher 2PT and overall FG%.
So you'd have to be referring to MJ's midrange game?
Exactly. Reminds me of when certain fanbases would rip on Izzo for his "terrible" Final Four record / %.... Is losing in the E8 better than losing in the F4, since it wouldn't tarnish his F4 record?
LeBron also didn't have the HOF coaching or HOF teammates for an extended period of time.
Eh. LeBron has one Finals appearance when he had zero help, MJ has 0. I think we can agree on that, right? MJ didn't get to the Finals until he had Pippen and LBJ didn't get there until he had Wade and Bosh. He also has had Kyrie his past 3 Finals trips. So I could argue that without help, MJ and LBJ have one Finals trip between them, that going to LeBron. Getting to my actual point now, when both are in the Finals, MJ has just been better. 6 - 0 with 6 MVPs. You could argue LBJ has faced better teams in the Finals, and given the GSW recently, I'll give that to you. Anyways, TL;DR, neither guy made it to the Finals without help sans 2007, but when both had help and good teams, one has/was clearly superior to the other.
But when he did have HOF teammates, his teams/play did not perform on par with Jordan's.
Yep. As I said from the jump, MJ might be the best winner, the best competitor, or the guy you want with the ball late (even though that's refutable with stats). But when it's all said and done for Bron five or so years from now, he'll be the best to ever play the game. All things considered. imo.
Look at the records of the teams Bron left the following year alongside when MJ left. Bulls damn near made to the Finals without him. Bron's teams end up at the bottom of the conference. It's not even close.
Start your own GOAT RB thread, ya son of a bitch.
And I think it is definitely still possible. I'm not one of those "Jordan will always be the best no matter what" guys. He's not even my favorite player. I just personally would take him over LBJ and I don't think LBJ will do enough to change my mind before he hangs it up. I've been wrong before, though!
I read the first post, that's usually more than I read when its the same old regurgitated MJ vs Lebron debate. It inspired a response, you should be happy.
Depends what LBJ wants to do. He could join some young gun and crush at PF when he exits his prime, and try and grab a couple more rings. Or, he could head to somewhere like LA and enjoy life and probably not win as much.
IF Lebron is not #1, he IS #2.
It's Jordan and Lebron. Those are the top 2 to ever play in the NBA. You can make an argument either way for who should be #1. I know some people who absolutely cannot stand Lebron so this conversation is never brought up because of their outrageous bias against him.
It's Jordan and Lebron. Those are the top 2 to ever play in the NBA. You can make an argument either way for who should be #1. I know some people who absolutely cannot stand Lebron so this conversation is never brought up because of their outrageous bias against him.
Every remembers Jordan's betting? It was a different time then. Hell. Pete Rose.
It would have been 9 in a row.
It would have been 9 in a row.
and if I theoretically start shooting fire beams out of my eyes that would be pretty sweet. But it ain't gonna happen.
Lebron ain't winning this year and if he ends up chasing another title by doing a Durant and joining a team that is a ready made title contender that won't do much for his legacy IMO. NOt when compared to MJ.
I grew up in the 80's. I know where I was when MJ switched hands against the Lakers etc. I'm still a fan of Lebron but he doesn't have those "moments".
I hope that makes sense.
Why isn't Bill Russell considered the greatest winner or champion ever? Heck, the Finals MVP is named in his honor. He was on 11 winners, almost twice that of Jordan. In fact, he won two high school titles, 2 college titles, an Olympic Gold medal, and 11 NBA titles. From age 17 to age 35 he lost only 3 elimination games, one in the NBA Finals and one against the Philadelphia 76ers, who were at that time the single season winningest team of all time. Russell was 11-0 in Game 7s, Jordan was 2-1. In playoff matches, Russell was famous for going up against Wilt Chamberlain, whereas Jordan feasted on the likes of Craig Ehlo, Dan Majerle, Bryon Russell, and Jeff Hornacek. Seattle didn't put Gary Payton on Jordan until late in the series, and when they did, Payton had a game where he tied Jordan in knots.
Bill Russell was the same height as Ben Simmons and shorter than Giannis. Lets wrap our minds around that for a minute. Moving on...
Talking strictly "champion," I can kinda dig that. However, no way I can sell MJ as second on both of those lists. Winking
You do know MJ came back for like 20 games and the playoffs in '95 right? I mean, he had fresh legs and a couple months of basketball. So, I might give you 7, but that's it. How you come to 9, though, I have no idea. Of course, trying to figure you out seems a fruitless endeavor.
Start your own thread, you sucker fish. I even promise to contribute.
Edit: Then after that we can argue Mike Trout as GOAT.
I think he’s the 2nd best player of all time right now. Don’t see him overtaking Jordan though.
Not sure what your point is here, but why would his height preclude him from consideration. If anything, it would make his accomplishments against Wilt all the more impressive. However, as with Kevin Durant, Russell was suspected of being taller than his listed height. If you've ever seen a picture of Russell standing next to Wilt, the height difference isn't really discernible. Jordan was absolutely great, but his general perch atop Mt. Basketballympus seems driven by 40 year old dudes memories and David Falk's fabulous marketing campaign. That Lebron is so bizarrely hated is also a factor.
Agree w ya on most everything. I was just saying, seeing guys the height of Russell playing PG makes him crushing midgets (and Wilt) a little less impressive. However, I don’t have nearly the knowledge of Russell that you do, so I can’t argue w ya much on this. I feel like Bill had a better supporting cast than most, but again, I could be wrong.
Believe it or not, it's painful for me to make this case for Russell because I'm a Lakers fan who had so many dreams dashed by Russell and his Celtics. Yes, there is a longstanding argument that Russell was aided by phenomenal teammates, but so much of that is misleading. Among the HOFers who played with Russell were John Thompson and Don Nelson (elected primarily for having great coaching careers), Wayne Embry (acquired by the Celtics well after he was past his prime), Satch Sanders (never even played in an All Star game), and K.C. Jones (.387 career shooting percentage). Wilt is my favorite all time player, but I have to give the man who bested regularly his props.
Would love to get further into this discussion, but I'm about to head off to Norway. Am already scouring to see if any Oslo sports parts have the NBA on their televisions.
Take care man.
As the biggest Barry Sanders fan in the history of the world, I had that same very argument throughout his entire career. It wasn't till later on that people realized how idiotic it was to put Emmett in the same category as Barry, let alone have him ranked higher.
I still remember listening to John Madden on TV saying how Emmett was the best RB in the league, ahead of Barry.
The difference between Barry and Emmett was that Barry would usually have to either break tackles or make moves just to get out of the backfield whereas Emmett would typically not even get touched until he was 5 yards up field.
I've been too busy throwing counter punches.
Bron will own like every stat in the book when he's done, but do we want to go over all of those? But, one of my favorites is Bron leading his team in scoring, assists, and rebounds 62 times in the playoffs. Second best are Duncan and Bird at 21. The dude does it ALL. I would point to some things I already said, like the spotlight was unreal on the kid. He had nary the tutelage of MJ. No father figure, like ever. He's done a thousand times more for his community and is willing to speak, not just smile for the cameras and sell shoes like MJ. He's been to 7 straight Finals. He is currently carrying a team on his back in his 15th season. I think right now it's tough to say LBJ over MJ, but by the time he hangs em up, we'll know he's the GOAT. And, 20 years after his career, when it has time to marinate and many of his supporters are too old to use the Internets or dead god forbid, it won't even be a debate. I've left a laundry list out, but don't want to carry on too long.
He gets more boards than Jordan because they played different positions. And James has only managed one or two more than the smaller Jordan; so James barely has an advantage in a garbage stat. Assists are a more meaningful stat than boards and James averages more assists but also more turnovers in the process. Assist/turnover ratio is what matters, and both players have a virtually identical ratio. It should also be noted that James has played with more talented players than Jordan, on the whole, and definitely more shooters. It stands to reason that he'd have more assists, he had more to pass to after the original Cavaliers years.
The off the court and community crap shouldn't come into the equation. We're comparing basketball players, not philanthropists. Both guys are kind of douchebags personality-wise. LeBron just tries to hide it better, but the locker room spats with teammates and coaches punctuates my point.
Jordan did it ALL, just like LeBron does.
This is the only place where I've seen Phil Jackson described as a mastermind. The triangle offense is fine. But is there anybody who thinks he wins all those championships without Kobe, Shaq, or Jordan? Jordan was the reason the Bulls were great, not Phil.
And outside of his first contract, LeBron has played with at least equal talent to Jordan's Bulls teams, often times more.
And outside of his first contract, LeBron has played with at least equal talent to Jordan's Bulls teams, often times more.
Did Mj take one or two years off when he went to play baseball and retired. You would think he could’ve had 1 or 2 more titles had he never left. Plus you have to consider he won a natty in college which gives him 7 titles. How many players in the history of the NBA have won two 3peats? That’s downright domination. I also saw a stat where MJ has like 18 more 40 point games in the playoffs then Lebron, and MJ accomplished this in less NBA playoff games which is crazy to think.
Lots of things wrong with this analysis imo...
1. LBJ got to the Finals in 2007 with the Cavs so before Wade and Bosh
2. LBJ has had 2 Finals appearances with zero help (2007 and 2015)
3. LBJ has more career playoff points, rebounds, assists and steals than Jordan
4. Pippen is a better #2 than Kyrie
Statistically, point #4 is dubious, but I'll give it to you because of Pippen's defensive impact. You can't forget Kevin Love, though.
1. I admitted in my post that is the one finals he made with no help
2. He had help until the very end. You can argue that series he didn't have anyone, but he had plenty of help before hand.
3. What about averages? LBJ has played more playoff games, averages are a lot more meaningful in these comparisons
4. Disagree. LeBron needed Kyrie to close. MJ was always the closer for the Bulls. I think that says a lot.
Similar threads
