Will Bron END UP the GOAT?

[Big_C_KU]

A little surprised as you don't strike me as one of those irrational posters who pays no attention to an opposing viewpoint.

Yes, they were 32-31.. You really think THIS Cavs team could play around .500 without Lebron? How about win 55 as the Bulls did the previous season without him? You claim not to be comparing, but I'm showing you the difference and it's a flawed argument by you.

How many games do you think they play in training camp to get ready? 10? And they usually skip half or more. Are you thinking MJ was not playing basketball at all during his "retirement" to stay in shape?

Jordan, when he played full seasons, also had some huge games and some where he wasn't his best (though some MJ lovers don't think those games exist...not saying you are one).

My point wasn't at all comparison. You keep wanting to compare teams. LeBron has proven he can take a team full of role players to the NBA Finals. He's a stud. That's no doubt. That was far from my comparison. This Cavs team without LeBron would probably win anywhere between 20-25 games mostly because the players would have to actually create for themselves which most of them are unable to do.

Also playing 10 preseason games and then playing regular season basketball is 100% different from playing for 17 games then playing playoff basketball. Effort level is increased 10 fold. Just look at LeBron and his effort level change from regular season to playoff. LeBron mostly coastes through the regular seasons and turns it on in the playoffs 2 or 3 levels. A superstar players usage level increases tremendously in the playoffs.

Staying in shape practicing here and there and playing some pick up games is not the same as true game shape. Any athlete would tell you that. All the pick up games Jordan played while doing the first retirement are far from being in game shape and ready to go.

This Cavs team would be 20-52 at best without Bron, similar to every team he’s left. They wouldn’t crash the ECF like the MJ-less Bulls did. We know that.

Bulls didn't make the ECF in 1994. Lost in 7 to the Knicks in the ECSF. Still they were a great team with Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and Armstrong.

 

[dtgold88]

My point wasn't at all comparison. You keep wanting to compare teams. LeBron has proven he can take a team full of role players to the NBA Finals. He's a stud. That's no doubt. That was far from my comparison. This Cavs team without LeBron would probably win anywhere between 20-25 games mostly because the players would have to actually create for themselves which most of them are unable to do.

Also playing 10 preseason games and then playing regular season basketball is 100% different from playing for 17 games then playing playoff basketball. Effort level is increased 10 fold. Just look at LeBron and his effort level change from regular season to playoff. LeBron mostly coastes through the regular seasons and turns it on in the playoffs 2 or 3 levels. A superstar players usage level increases tremendously in the playoffs.

Staying in shape practicing here and there and playing some pick up games is not the same as true game shape. Any athlete would tell you that. All the pick up games Jordan played while doing the first retirement are far from being in game shape and ready to go.



Bulls didn't make the ECF in 1994. Lost in 7 to the Knicks in the ECSF. Still they were a great team with Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and Armstrong.

I think you kind of made my point. Effort level raised in the real games, and MJ had 18 to get ready. Should be enough as they only need 8-10 playing half the games and going half speed.

 

[Big_C_KU]

I think you kind of made my point. Effort level raised in the real games, and MJ had 18 to get ready. Should be enough as they only need 8-10 playing half the games and going half speed.

No point in debating this anymore. I strongly believe it would take much more than 20 games to get back into game shape and speed while you believe players can do it in less than 20 games after 2 years off.

Sadly there is no real great example of this. Players who came out of retirement after more than 1 season were usually too old or took off longer than almost 2 years. They would definitely need longer to get in game shape and speed. The only other comparable examples are players coming off of injuries but those are injuries not retirement.

 

[dtgold88]

Ironic as you continually ignore the opposing viewpoint and miss what others are trying to state.

His point is Jordan came back to a deeply flawed team on little rest. Bringing up the Cavs is non-sensical. But even so, it would be reasonable that this team could be .500 in the East without Lebron.

​

He needed more time than just a few games to get ready. He had been all-in on baseball. If you understand Jordan, he doesn't half-ass anything and practices as hard as he plays. He was notorious for taking ungodly amounts of batting practice. Getting 400-500 swings a day or until his hands bled. He tried to make up for years of not seeing pitching in a season. Everything he had been doing was for baseball, flipping the switch back to basketball wasn't so easy.

what do I ignore, as I've actually stated I think MJ is still the GOAT. Guess you ignored that. Ironic, huh?

Deeply flawed? 55 wins the previous season and .500 that year. I cannot imagine many believe this Cavs team wins 40 games without Lebron. WITH Kyrie they were 0-8 without him last season. Kyrie might have missed some of those games, but they were winless with no Lebron.

If he practices as hard as he plays, why couldn't he get ready? You thinking they didn't practice? Are you also thinking he didn't play while on his hiatus?

You make these statements that are opinion as though you think they are factual. as did those who think he has 8 titles if he didn't "retire".

 

[dtgold88]

https://shutupandjam.net/nba-ncaa-stats/ht-by-pos/

So as I said...about the same or maybe a little bigger/stronger/faster today. Seems only center got smaller, by a small margin. Though this is 2014, not 2018.

 

[dtgold88]

This Cavs team would be 20-52 at best without Bron, similar to every team he’s left. They wouldn’t crash the ECF like the MJ-less Bulls did. We know that.

I think full strength maybe they win 30.

 

[dtgold88]

Believe what you wanna but no one today couldn’t guard Jordan. Like I said before defense in today’s game is less physical back when Jordan played. If you disagree with that then you were to young to see him play in his prime or you’re not as knowledgeable as you think you are.

"No one couldn't guard Jordan"?

In fact, I do not agree. You do?

And I'm 48 so I remember his entire career.

 

[dtgold88]

No point in debating this anymore. I strongly believe it would take much more than 20 games to get back into game shape and speed while you believe players can do it in less than 20 games after 2 years off.

Sadly there is no real great example of this. Players who came out of retirement after more than 1 season were usually too old or took off longer than almost 2 years. They would definitely need longer to get in game shape and speed. The only other comparable examples are players coming off of injuries but those are injuries not retirement.

No real examples, but for some reason you seem sure you are right? And who are the ones who came off injury? Wouldn't that be even tougher than coming off what was pretty much rest for MJ.

 

[Big_C_KU]

No real examples, but for some reason you seem sure you are right? And who are the ones who came off injury? Wouldn't that be even tougher than coming off what was pretty much rest for MJ.

You seem sure you are right the other way with no real examples either. And yes that's why I said the only other examples are injuries but those aren't a good example because they are injuries and those are harder to come back from because of the physical ailments involved as well as getting back into physical shape. That's why I said there is no real examples of what Jordan did one way or the other in sports so it's really of opinion.

edit: I can also see how my post could be confusing about the injuries as examples. Those are examples of players struggling to come back after time away from the sport. Wasn't talking about players who came back from season ending injuries and didn't miss a beat. Those are few and far between.

 

[uncfan in ky]

Obviously a lot of people ITT haven’t played baseball since TBall if they think it’s easy on the body, restful or not mentally challenging.

 

[Big_Blue79]

I grew up a Bulls fan, watching Jordan. I'm not a Lebron fan nor a Lebron hater. With that said I still got to rank Jordan ahead of Lebron but there is no denying that Lebron has at least made it debatable and he isn't even done yet.

Now with that said, if you switch teams and each other played in each other's era. How many championships do you think Jordan has and how many do you think Lebron has?

Same, grew up watching the Bulls over the air on WGN. And Lebron is closing the gap to the point that I think the end will be Jordan higher peak and Lebron more accomplished.

Great question. I think I'd give the edge to Lebron, especially under today's rules (which emphasize versatility, size on the wing, and playmaking). But, really, hard to say. I think the one thing that's not really up for debate is that it's more physically demanding to play in today's NBA; even Simmons came around on this point. Lebron's #1 virtue might just be his alien-like endurance. He's already played more minutes than MJ in the regular season, and far more in the playoffs, without a 100 game rest in the middle. And he just keeps going.

 

[AWilli6995]

"No one couldn't guard Jordan"?

In fact, I do not agree. You do?

And I'm 48 so I remember his entire career.

You remember but it’s obvious you couldn’t recognize greatness and if you stop coming off as a know it all you probably wouldn’t get any blowback from others. I will say this about LBJ. If he leads his team to a title then the discussion gets real. If Golden State wins in 4-5 games then he’s a distant 2nd behind Jordan. IMO it doesn’t matter if you go to the finals 8-9 straight times, if you don’t cash in on half or more that’s where you’ll stand especially when you have someone that went to the finals 6 times and never lost.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Believe what you wanna but no one today couldn’t guard Jordan. Like I said before defense in today’s game is less physical back when Jordan played. If you disagree with that then you were to young to see him play in his prime or you’re not as knowledgeable as you think you are.

Less physical? Great, a few less non-basketball plays at the rim (screw Pat Riley, btw) and less hand-checking. Defenses are also much, much more sophisticated, and players give much more effort on a regular basis. What's happened to the NBA since the change to the illegal defense rules is that defenses are much better able to contain individual players/threats UNLESS you have other threats on the floor at all times. And now that offenses evolved to account for that Thibs-style strong side flooding and help rotations (which are illegal defense calls in the 1990s, remember), defenses moved to switch everything and force isolations. Except those isolations are facing defenses that can collapse and rotate w/out resulting technical FTs.

If you disagree, you probably haven't watched basketball the last 5 years and you're certainly not as knowledgeable as you think you are.

 

[Big_Blue79]

if you don’t cash in on half or more

I believe basketball stat nerds refer to this as "halfsies champsies over replacement player." Context-free and arbitrary is the best way to judge basketball players.

 

[dtgold88]

You remember but it’s obvious you couldn’t recognize greatness and if you stop coming off as a know it all you probably wouldn’t get any blowback from others. I will say this about LBJ. If he leads his team to a title then the discussion gets real. If Golden State wins in 4-5 games then he’s a distant 2nd behind Jordan. IMO it doesn’t matter if you go to the finals 8-9 straight times, if you don’t cash in on half or more that’s where you’ll stand especially when you have someone that went to the finals 6 times and never lost.

Let me see if I have this straight.......I still think MJ is the GOAT, but believe Lebron should be in the discussion while others state as fact MJ's the GOAT and no way Lebron could pass him and I'm the know-it-all?

Clearly, you are one of those posters who bases his comments on the poster and not the actual post.

Your opinion is if Lebron, with a far lesser roster, loses to possibly the best team of all time he becomes a distant 2nd? Should he have lost to Boston and pulled the MJ and not even gotten to the Finals?

Let me ask you this hypothetical. suppose Lebron goes to the next 5 Finals (inclusing this one), and "only" wins 2. This makes him 5-8 in the Finals. You think going to the Finals 13 times and "only" winning 5 is less impressive than getting there 6 times and winning them all? If you say yes, does this mean you think Lebron would be closer to MJ had he never went those other 8 times and just been 5-0 in the Finals, failing to get past even round 1 on occasion?

 

[dtgold88]

Less physical? Great, a few less non-basketball plays at the rim (screw Pat Riley, btw) and less hand-checking. Defenses are also much, much more sophisticated, and players give much more effort on a regular basis. What's happened to the NBA since the change to the illegal defense rules is that defenses are much better able to contain individual players/threats UNLESS you have other threats on the floor at all times. And now that offenses evolved to account for that Thibs-style strong side flooding and help rotations (which are illegal defense calls in the 1990s, remember), defenses moved to switch everything and force isolations. Except those isolations are facing defenses that can collapse and rotate w/out resulting technical FTs.

If you disagree, you probably haven't watched basketball the last 5 years and you're certainly not as knowledgeable as you think you are.

I'd even add this idea there is less handchecking might be a myth. sure, when they changed the rule it worked for a little while, but just like the no flop rule or refs being less tolerant and calling more Ts it got back to where they were.

 

[dtgold88]

I believe basketball stat nerds refer to this as "halfsies champsies over replacement player." Context-free and arbitrary is the best way to judge basketball players.

Had the Cavs lost to the Cs I was thinking Lebron convinced them to take a dive for him as we all know losing in the ECF is better than losing in the Finals.

 

[Matt Laurer]

what do I ignore, as I've actually stated I think MJ is still the GOAT. Guess you ignored that. Ironic, huh?

Deeply flawed? 55 wins the previous season and .500 that year. I cannot imagine many believe this Cavs team wins 40 games without Lebron. WITH Kyrie they were 0-8 without him last season. Kyrie might have missed some of those games, but they were winless with no Lebron.

If he practices as hard as he plays, why couldn't he get ready? You thinking they didn't practice? Are you also thinking he didn't play while on his hiatus?

You make these statements that are opinion as though you think they are factual. as did those who think he has 8 titles if he didn't "retire".

I can’t take you seriously when you think someone should instantly be ready after playing an entirely different sport for 2 years.

 

[dtgold88]

I can’t take you seriously when you think someone should instantly be ready after playing an entirely different sport for 2 years.

Or maybe it's because I can easily refute what you said? THIS Cavs team wins 40+ without Lebron even though even with Kyrie they lost every game he missed last year and won 34 before Lebron arrived?

weird you cannot refute anything I said with facts.....you know, like I can do with your pearls of wisdom.

And here I go again refuting your comments with some logic.....who said "instantly"? 18 games or 4-6 weeks is instantly?

 

[Big_Blue79]

I'd even add this idea there is less handchecking might be a myth. sure, when they changed the rule it worked for a little while, but just like the no flop rule or refs being less tolerant and calling more Ts it got back to where they were.

To be fair, today's offenses are benefiting from allowing moving screens the likes of which would please Joe Gibbs.

 

[dtgold88]

To be fair, today's offenses are benefiting from allowing moving screens the likes of which would please Joe Gibbs.

I will say while I cannot recall what it was like in the 80s and 90s I do notice many screens are technically of the moving variety. Unfortunately, Cavs are about to see maybe the best at setting illegal screens the next couple weeks.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

To be fair, today's offenses are benefiting from allowing moving screens the likes of which would please Joe Gibbs.

Scoring really hasn't been up over LeBron's career. Scoring was much higher in the 80s than over the course of his career and the 90s were pretty comparable with slightly more scoring.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Your post is total BS. No one today could check Jordan and he was also a lock down defender. Defenses back in the day were more physical. If Jordan played today he’d average 40 a game.

Teams averaged more points per game over Jordan's career than over LeBron's career. This idea that scoring has been significantly inflated over LeBron's career is for old people that don't know how to Google. The stats are there for people smart enough to find them.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

2017/2018 is the highest scoring NBA season of LeBron's career at 106.3 points per team per game.

Michael Jordan played in 6 season with over 106.3 points per team per game and 1 season at 106.3. That's 7 seasons with as much or more scoring than LeBron's highest scoring season. So to act like scoring is inflated over LeBron's career is utterly stupid.

 

[Matt Laurer]

Or maybe it's because I can easily refute what you said? THIS Cavs team wins 40+ without Lebron even though even with Kyrie they lost every game he missed last year and won 34 before Lebron arrived?

weird you cannot refute anything I said with facts.....you know, like I can do with your pearls of wisdom.

And here I go again refuting your comments with some logic.....who said "instantly"? 18 games or 4-6 weeks is instantly?

The wins argument can’t be proven or disproven. We can only guess.

However, anyone that had played sports seriously would know that a 2 year hiatus to play an entirely different sport would require some time to come back from. Certainly more than 4-6 weeks. The way you work out for baseball is radically different than the way you do for basketball. For you to argue otherwise exposes your ignorance.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Scoring really hasn't been up over LeBron's career. Scoring was much higher in the 80s than over the course of his career and the 90s were pretty comparable with slightly more scoring.

Oh, agreed, which is why it's better to use tempo and even season adjusted stats (like PER normalizes each year so 15 is average). I was just trying to preempt anyone from claiming it's somehow easier to score now, and also call attention to the ridiculous moving screens from last night. Not called a foul.

 

[I am stupid]

I wonder if so many would think Lebron is the GOAT if the hadn't been saying it since before he ever played a NBA game.

After Lebron they will have another GOAT to pump out on their headlines. That person who will not be as good as MJ or Lebron will have a diehard following saying he is clearly the best ever.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I wonder if so many would think Lebron is the GOAT if the hadn't been saying it since before he ever played a NBA game.

After Lebron they will have another GOAT to pump out on their headlines. That person who will not be as good as MJ or Lebron will have a diehard following saying he is clearly the best ever.

I wonder if people will continue to think that no one can ever be better than who they consider the best. This already-set-it-stone mentality is why so LeBron will never get a fair shake in this discussion.

 

[JimboBBN]

I wonder if so many would think Lebron is the GOAT if the hadn't been saying it since before he ever played a NBA game.

After Lebron they will have another GOAT to pump out on their headlines. That person who will not be as good as MJ or Lebron will have a diehard following saying he is clearly the best ever.

If you’ve watched both and followed both of their careers, you can’t talk about how great one and dismiss the other one. You could have a few years ago before LBJ beat the Warriors, but I think that team is the best team either have beaten in finals.

If LBJ wins the title against these Warriors, it would be hard to argue against him. If he loses, well, it’s another blemish Jordan never had.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

If you’ve watched both and followed both of their careers, you can’t talk about how great one and dismiss the other one. You could have a few years ago before LBJ beat the Warriors, but I think that team is the best team either have beaten in finals.

If LBJ wins the title against these Warriors, it would be hard to argue against him. If he loses, well, it’s another blemish Jordan never had.

Would it have been better for LeBron to lose to Boston last series than lose to GSW this series?

 

[Matt Laurer]

I wonder if people will continue to think that no one can ever be better than who they consider the best. This already-set-it-stone mentality is why so LeBron will never get a fair shake in this discussion.

If Jimmy G takes the Niners to the Super Bowl 9 times over the next 15 years but has a SB record of 3-6 while posting comparable numbers as Brady, would you place him above Brady?

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

If Jimmy G takes the Niners to the Super Bowl 9 times over the next 15 years but has a SB record of 3-6 while posting comparable numbers as Brady, would you place him above Brady?

No because putting up passing numbers in today's NFL is easier than the NFL that Brady the first portion his career in. Passing numbers are very inflated.

 

[Matt Laurer]

No because putting up passing numbers in today's NFL is easier than the NFL that Brady play half his career in. Passing numbers are very inflated.

That’s pretty much the argument people make for Jordan and LBJ. It’s universally accepted that Jordan would have better numbers today

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

That’s pretty much the argument people make for Jordan and LBJ. It’s universally accepted that Jordan would have better numbers today

No it's not. Jordan played in an era with more scoring than LeBron's career.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

@Matt Laurer

2017/2018 is the highest scoring NBA season of LeBron's career at 106.3 points per team per game.

Michael Jordan played in 6 season with over 106.3 points per team per game and 1 season at 106.3. That's 7 seasons with as much or more scoring than LeBron's highest scoring season.

 

[Matt Laurer]

No it's not. Jordan played in an era with more scoring than LeBron's career.

Scoring does not necessarily equal offensive efficiency. The ten most efficient teams have a smattering of teams from the 80s through this current year.

Regardless, Brady played most of his career in a pass friendly league. The year he won his first SB, they beat the greatest show on turf. If you want to bring in scoring, the league average was 21.7 ppg last year. In 1998, it was 21.3.

So again, by your standards, Garrapolo would surpass Tom. He would take a shittier organization without the unquestioned GOAT coach to more SBs but come up short because of talent around him.

 

[JimboBBN]

Would it have been better for LeBron to lose to Boston last series than lose to GSW this series?

Not saying it’s right or wrong one way or the other but yea, most people will see a loss in the finals before they look and see where he lost before that.

 

[Matt Laurer]

@Matt Laurer

2017/2018 is the highest scoring NBA season of LeBron's career at 106.3 points per team per game.

Michael Jordan played in 6 season with over 106.3 points per team per game and 1 season at 106.3. That's 7 seasons with as much or more scoring than LeBron's highest scoring season.

The NBA is having its best offensive season ever and the stats prove it

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Scoring does not necessarily equal offensive efficiency. The ten most efficient teams have a smattering of teams from the 80s through this current year.

Regardless, Brady played most of his career in a pass friendly league. The year he won his first SB, they beat the greatest show on turf. If you want to bring in scoring, the league average was 21.7 ppg last year. In 1998, it was 21.3.

So again, by your standards, Garrapolo would surpass Tom. He would take a shittier organization without the unquestioned GOAT coach to more SBs but come up short because of talent around him.

You said that it's universally accepted that Jordan would have better numbers in this era. He might be more efficient (debatable because he sucked at 3pt shooting) but I don't buy that his per game counting stats would be higher. There were more counting stats available back then.


Passing numbers really became inflated with the rule changes in 2007. Not debatable.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

The NBA is having its best offensive season ever and the stats prove it

Efficiency wise, yes. Counting stats, no.

And it's more efficient because of how much teams are shooting the three and how often threes are getting shot. I don't know how that would help Jordan's case given that he is a bad 3pt shooter.