UCF got screwed!

[IUfanBorden]

Hmm, that seems silly them. So we want people to just not play defense as a secondary defender. Why is there a differentiation on jumping or not jumping? So if you stay straight up and leap a couple of inches versus not it impacts whether it is a foul or a play on? How long are you guarding someone before you are the primary defender? Interesting though.

It seems like it would be easier to see on the floor than on TV, especially to a trained pro. Maybe not though.

Regardless, I in no way think UCF got screwed. I think they blew it. I just enjoy talking about Duke getting calls when they get them.

Primary defender is the player who initially is guarding you...You get past him, defender comes over, he is now considered a secondary defender---Unless the play stops. The difference between jumping(straight up of course) and not is simple: You have to allow a secondary defender a legal chance to guard. As long as he jumps straight up, there is no foul. If he just chooses to stand there, its a foul. Why? Because he'sin the restricted area, as an illegal defender.

As for being easier to see on the floor, opposed to TV? No way. The view from TV is elevated. We can see the entire floor. As an official, that is not always the case. You have 25 other things to consider as well. Its just not as easy as it looks.

 

[HRTheCard]

No because Zion nor Tacko were involved in Kentucky’s game yesterday. Nor any other UCF player.

Ok seriously though, what are you referencing?

Their best player went 0/12..........I know of 3 that were wide open.

Foul at the end was offensive on Travis.

Both of those have a luck value, just like tonight's game.

 

[coryfly]

Primary defender is the player who initially is guarding you...You get past him, defender comes over, he is now considered a secondary defender---Unless the play stops. The difference between jumping(straight up of course) and not is simple: You have to allow a secondary defender a legal chance to guard. As long as he jumps straight up, there is no foul. If he just chooses to stand there, its a foul. Why? Because he'sin the restricted area, as an illegal defender.

As for being easier to see on the floor, opposed to TV? No way. The view from TV is elevated. We can see the entire floor. As an official, that is not always the case. You have 25 other things to consider as well. Its just not as easy as it looks.

I mean, at some point a secondary defender would have to be able to become a primary. Defenses switch, guys get beat and then another player picks them up and there is time that takes place, etc... I am NOT saying it happened there but was just curious.

I just don't get the logic behind the jump rule. I completely understand what you are saying, just not the reasoning. If you jump or don't jump you are still defending if you are standing with your hands straight up. I thought the circle was just to say you can't take a charge, not that you can't be an obstacle or defend. Thanks though. Didn't realize it was automatic. Good to know.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Hmm, that seems silly them. So if you stay straight up and leap a couple of inches versus not it impacts whether it is a foul or a play on? How long are you guarding someone before you are the primary defender? Interesting though.

.

If you are a secondary defender, inside the arc, and there is contact---its on you as a defender. Its not silly. You chose to move into a restricted area, designed to protect the offense. Difference with jumping is, you are allowed to defend. Standing there, impeding movement, isn't considered defending. But jumping within your plain is. I think its a great rule.

How long do you guard before being considered a primary defender? I will try and explain this best I can. Offense gets by his primary defender....You rotate over as a secondary defender, and STOP the play, i.e. Offense doesn't try to advance. Once that happens, you have now became the primary defender.

Hope this helps?

 

[coryfly]

If you are a secondary defender, inside the arc, and there is contact---its on you as a defender. Its not silly. You chose to move into a restricted area, designed to protect the offense. Difference with jumping is, you are allowed to defend. Standing there, impeding movement, isn't considered defending. But jumping within your plain is. I think its a great rule.

How long do you guard before being considered a primary defender? I will try and explain this best I can. Offense gets by his primary defender....You rotate over as a secondary defender, and STOP the play, i.e. Offense doesn't try to advance. Once that happens, you have now became the primary defender.

Hope this helps?

Yes, that is what I was wondering. Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

Travis didnt charge....... anything....... Wofford got away with an obvious double dribble...... if somehow it was a charge on travis or a non foul... the refs just did a make up call for the absurd double dribble right in plain sight.

 

[IUfanBorden]

I mean, at some point a secondary defender would have to be able to become a primary. Defenses switch, guys get beat and then another player picks them up and there is time that takes place, etc... I am NOT saying it happened there but was just curious.

I just don't get the logic behind the jump rule. I completely understand what you are saying, just not the reasoning. If you jump or don't jump you are still defending if you are standing with your hands straight up. I thought the circle was just to say you can't take a charge, not that you can't be an obstacle or defend. Thanks though. Didn't realize it was automatic. Good to know.

A secondary defender can become the primary IF the play stops. Say I net you off the dribble, guy rotates over, stops my path to the goal, and I retreat. He is now a primary defender. BUT....If I beat you off the dribble, go to the hoop, and a defender rotates over, inside the arc, and there is contact----that is on him.

Logic behind the jump rule is simple. You have to allow the defender to defend. The arc rule was designed to protect the offense. if you allow ANY defender to simply slide in there, and just stand, it takes the safety issue out of play. So the NCAA says---A secondary defender can defend, as long as he is defending. That is seen as jumping. Not just standing there.

That is the best I can explain it.

 

[jace4655555]

Actually, as a secondary defender, if you do not jump(Not sure if Tacko did), it's an automatic foul IF you are in the arc, and there is contact. Primary defender? No. But secondary----yes. Its automatic.

As for the push in back? Its easier to miss than what you think. You have what, 5-6 dudes in a confined area? I mean it is very easy an official to get straight-lined by a player, in essence totally blocking your view. Officials have an area to watch. The official bench side is responsible for guys opposite his side of the lane. Its not uncommon to get straight-lined, and have your view obstructed.

Yeah, I actually was okay with the miss on the push in the back.

Sure it is...And IF the defender is in a LGP(legal guarding position), and there is contact, and the offense pushes off, creating separation, it is a foul. Its a bang,bang call. Both got there at the same time. There was contact. NOW---three things the official has to decide in a split second:

1. Was the defender in a LGP?

2. Was the extension an attempt to create separation?

3. Or, was the extension a natural reaction to contact, and thus simply incidental basketball contact?

Pretty easy, huh?

[/QUOTE]
I guess this is where you're losing me...I think its pretty obvious that you can put a checkmark next to the first 2 options.

I hope I'm not coming off as just trying to argue with you...because I'm really not. I honestly don't see how anyone can look at that particular play and not see a push off. I'm not a jaded fan who just wants to see Duke lose. I'd love to see more games from this team and think they're the best team in the country.

 

[Quavarius]

Fouls:
Duke 18
UCF 16

FTA:
Duke 12
UCF 20

Sure, those mean ole refs were out to get UCF

 

[bkingUK]

Fouls:
Duke 18
UCF 16

FTA:
Duke 12
UCF 20

Sure, those mean ole refs were out to get UCF

Comparing fouls called in a game is literally the worst way to gauge refs. It’s not supposed to be foul socialism.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Comparing fouls called in a game is literally the worst way to gauge refs. It’s not supposed to be foul socialism.

If people cared enough about calling out bad no calls against Duke, they'd have at least 4 still shots of Tacko holding down the defender on his offensive rebounds. Let's whine and bitch because the team we wanted to lose, won. That's what this crybaby shit is really about.

 

[Quavarius]

Comparing fouls called in a game is literally the worst way to gauge refs. It’s not supposed to be foul socialism.

And yet the UK fanbase literally does this ALL the time.

 

[Quavarius]

If people cared enough about calling out bad no calls against Duke, they'd have at least 4 still shots of Tacko holding down the defender on his offensive rebounds. Let's whine and bitch because the team we wanted to lose, won. That's what this crybaby shit is really about.

Bingo

 

[bkingUK]

And yet the UK fanbase literally does this ALL the time.

Some Duke fans are gay so...

 

[IUfanBorden]

Comparing fouls called in a game is literally the worst way to gauge refs. It’s not supposed to be foul socialism.

It is.....I agree. I thought the game was called just fine.

 

[jace4655555]

If you are a secondary defender, inside the arc, and there is contact---its on you as a defender. Its not silly. You chose to move into a restricted area, designed to protect the offense. Difference with jumping is, you are allowed to defend. Standing there, impeding movement, isn't considered defending. But jumping within your plain is. I think its a great rule.

How long do you guard before being considered a primary defender? I will try and explain this best I can. Offense gets by his primary defender....You rotate over as a secondary defender, and STOP the play, i.e. Offense doesn't try to advance. Once that happens, you have now became the primary defender.

Hope this helps?

If the defender is playing proper defense and moving his feet, is he still not considered a defender? Not at all saying that you're wrong with the rule...I'm confident that you know the rull better than I do. But, it just seems odd that the arbitrary line is did he jump. There are so many variables that can come into play to make it as simple of...did he jump.

Tbh that line of thinking goes against everything kids are taught all the way back to middle school. From day one, you're always taught to not leave your feet on defense. Granted, you don't have the arc in middle school, but it does go against what a player has always been taught. Just to make sure that I'm understanding correctly....if a defender is coming over to help and he's inside the arc...he MUST jump (of course straight up), or it's an automatic foul if any contact is made?

Not going to lie here....until this conversation I had never heard it explained like this.

 

[LandofOzDevil]

Some Duke fans are gay so...

I’m sure some U.K. fans are too. But playing this card shows you’ve lost your argument. Weak sauce from you bking. You are surely better than this.

 

[IUfanBorden]

If the defender is playing proper defense and moving his feet, is he still not considered a defender? Not at all saying that you're wrong with the rule...I'm confident that you know the rull better than I do. But, it just seems odd that the arbitrary line is did he jump. There are so many variables that can come into play to make it as simple of...did he jump.

Tbh that line of thinking goes against everything kids are taught all the way back to middle school. From day one, you're always taught to not leave your feet on defense. Granted, you don't have the arc in middle school, but it does go against what a player has always been taught. Just to make sure that I'm understanding correctly....if a defender is coming over to help and he's inside the arc...he MUST jump (of course straight up), or it's an automatic foul if any contact is made?

Not going to lie here....until this conversation I had never heard it explained like this.

As a secondary defender, being in the arc is not proper defense. The arc was implemented for safety purposes...If you just allow anyone in there, with no restricitons, you may as well not have the arc.

Kids are taught not to leave their feet on a jump shot. Not to many jump shots taking place inside the arc.

I like the rule not allowing a secondary defender to just stand in the arc. I like it even more that IF there, they are allowed to jump, staying vertical, to defend. The rule is actually making them defend---oppsoed to impeding. Good rule.

 

[jace4655555]

If people cared enough about calling out bad no calls against Duke, they'd have at least 4 still shots of Tacko holding down the defender on his offensive rebounds. Let's whine and bitch because the team we wanted to lose, won. That's what this crybaby shit is really about.

Believe what you want, but you're incorrect about why this thread was created. I don't have a hatred towards Duke like most people do. Besides my own team...I probably watched more Duke games this year then almost all the other games combined.

You can stomp your feet while screaming that it's just jaded fans from other teams. But, that doesn't change the fact that a call was missed that ended up being the difference in the end. It wasn't the only reason for the outcome and it wasn't the only missed call for both teams. But, it still was a missed call that ended up being a huge swing in the game.

 

[bkingUK]

I’m sure some U.K. fans are too. But playing this card shows you’ve lost your argument. Weak sauce from you bking. You are surely better than this.

Actually it exactly proves my argument. Unless some Duke fans being gay makes you a homosexual what does some UK fans making foul comparison arguments have to do with me? It doesn’t matta if every UK fan made that argument. It doesn’t make the comparison any MORE accurate. And based upon that, no I did not lose. I won. I’m a ****ing winner and best poster alive.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Blown alley oop and 2 ft tip. My God.

UCF was fun to watch.

 

[LandofOzDevil]

Actually it exactly proves my argument. Unless some Duke fans being gay makes you a homosexual what does some UK fans making foul comparison arguments have to do with me? It doesn’t matta if every UK fan made that argument, it doesn’t make the comparison any MORE accurate. And based upon that, no I did not lose. I won. I’m a ****ing winner and best poster alive.

No braj. You’re not a winner. In fact I think you are gay.

 

[bkingUK]

No braj. You’re not a winner. In fact I think you are gay.

And based upon your argument, this would mean Ashley Judd is also gay, for she is a UK fan. And I’m good with that.

 

[IUfanBorden]

If the defender is playing proper defense and moving his feet, is he still not considered a defender? Not at all saying that you're wrong with the rule...I'm confident that you know the rull better than I do. But, it just seems odd that the arbitrary line is did he jump. There are so many variables that can come into play to make it as simple of...did he jump.

Tbh that line of thinking goes against everything kids are taught all the way back to middle school. From day one, you're always taught to not leave your feet on defense. Granted, you don't have the arc in middle school, but it does go against what a player has always been taught. Just to make sure that I'm understanding correctly....if a defender is coming over to help and he's inside the arc...he MUST jump (of course straight up), or it's an automatic foul if any contact is made?

Not going to lie here....until this conversation I had never heard it explained like this.

Here is the rule, Jace---Hope this helps.


A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purposes of drawing an offensive foul on a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try for goal. When illegal contact occurs within this restricted area, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact is flagrant. (Exception: When the offensive player leads with a foot or unnatural extended knee or wards off with the arm.) This restriction shall not prohibit a defender, located within the restricted area, from attempting to block a shot by: 1) establishing legal guarding position, 2) jumping in the air while maintaining legal verticality position, and 3) attempting to block the shot.


I bolded some specifics....Notably what the offense in this situation, cannot do. But that is nulled IF the defense is not attempting to block the shot.

Again, hope this helps, brother.

 

[jace4655555]

As a secondary defender, being in the arc is not proper defense. The arc was implemented for safety purposes...If you just allow anyone in there, with no restricitons, you may as well not have the arc.

Kids are taught not to leave their feet on a jump shot. Not to many jump shots taking place inside the arc.

I like the rule not allowing a secondary defender to just stand in the arc. I like it even more that IF there, they are allowed to jump, staying vertical, to defend. The rule is actually making them defend---oppsoed to impeding. Good rule.

Never looked at it as standing in the arc is improper defense tbh. Accepting that line of thinking does help make it easier to understand.

About what younger kids are taught....I've coached a lot of elementary and middle school and I've always found one of the hardest thing as a coach is to get your few post players to NOT jump while defending a shot from the post. Teaching them to wall up and stay straight is usually one of the last things that they eventually figure out. From my experience, they don't have nearly enough control of their body to be able to jump while staying straight up. Until they stopped trying to jump to block every shot, it was a constant musical chairs with foul trouble.

 

[coryfly]

A secondary defender can become the primary IF the play stops. Say I net you off the dribble, guy rotates over, stops my path to the goal, and I retreat. He is now a primary defender. BUT....If I beat you off the dribble, go to the hoop, and a defender rotates over, inside the arc, and there is contact----that is on him.

Logic behind the jump rule is simple. You have to allow the defender to defend. The arc rule was designed to protect the offense. if you allow ANY defender to simply slide in there, and just stand, it takes the safety issue out of play. So the NCAA says---A secondary defender can defend, as long as he is defending. That is seen as jumping. Not just standing there.

That is the best I can explain it.

Tacko actually did jump so it doesn't matter anyway, lol. Doesn't mean it wasn't a foul on him but he was jumping.

Sure, I just think that is a little inconsistent with the role of a primary defender. A primary defender can defend without jumping. They can just stand there and draw a charge. It is just the jumping thing. I mean, I've seen it called enough

 

[jace4655555]

Here is the rule, Jace---Hope this helps.


A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purposes of drawing an offensive foul on a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try for goal. When illegal contact occurs within this restricted area, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact is flagrant. (Exception: When the offensive player leads with a foot or unnatural extended knee or wards off with the arm.) This restriction shall not prohibit a defender, located within the restricted area, from attempting to block a shot by: 1) establishing legal guarding position, 2) jumping in the air while maintaining legal verticality position, and 3) attempting to block the shot.


I bolded some specifics....Notably what the offense in this situation, cannot do. But that is nulled IF the defense is not attempting to block the shot.

Again, hope this helps, brother.

Yeah, the part that was stumping me is that I didn't consider guarding someone while in the arc was bad defensive position. Was just looking at it from a different angle. For someone whose in his 40s....this is a newer rule for college. So, still not used to all the nuances of the arc. Always just looked at it as a offensive player can't be called for a charge if the defender is inside the arc. Honestly, didn't think it went beyond that. Thanks for the explanation....learned something new

 

[IUfanBorden]

Tacko actually did jump so it doesn't matter anyway, lol. Doesn't mean it wasn't a foul on him but he was jumping.

Sure, I just think that is a little inconsistent with the role of a primary defender. A primary defender can defend without jumping. They can just stand there and draw a charge. It is just the jumping thing. I mean, I've seen it called enough

I posted the rule, so maybe that can explain better than I can. Admittedly, explaining shit isn't my best attribute.

I know I come off as a dick sometimes when it comes to officiating...But really, it just comes down to me not being able to write down what I am wanting to say.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Tacko actually did jump so it doesn't matter anyway, lol. Doesn't mean it wasn't a foul on him but he was jumping.

Sure, I just think that is a little inconsistent with the role of a primary defender. A primary defender can defend without jumping. They can just stand there and draw a charge. It is just the jumping thing. I mean, I've seen it called enough

Just jumping is only part of it...You have to established a LGP---I know, I know...Then when you do that, and then jump, you have to remain vertical.

A primary defender vs a secondary defender is simple. You have to allow a primary defender more ability. The thing is as a secondary defender, this only applies within the arc. Anywhere else, you have the same luxury as a primary defender.

It can be confusing if you ain't use to calling it.

 

[coryfly]

It is all pretty interesting though.

 

[954gator]

Should have made the alley-oop dunk. Should have boxed out on the Zion missed FT. Should have been a shot clock violation where they scored a bucket. I don't think one call is what screwed UCF.

The UCF player should have tried to sell the over the back more for sure. Why they fouled Zion up 3 at the rim in the first place???? SMH

 

[Boilermaker03]

It would

It wasn't a shot clock violation, it barely grazed the rim. The ball literally changed rotation after it hit the rim.

The missed Zion ft (that shouldn't have happened) was boxed out, but he got pushed in the back. Also, the Taco dude would have been in the game if the right call on Zion had happened.

I've got nothing on the alley-oop...that was a killer missed opportunity.

No it didn't. It didn't change rotation at all until the ball hit the backboard.

 

[TheDude1]

It ABSOLUTELY did not graze the rim. If you looked from above you could see the ball and its momentum did not change at ALL until AFTER it passed the rim and hit the backboard. It was absolutely a shot clock violation.

 

[dukedevilz]

If Duke ends up winning the whole thing, UCF will probably go ahead and claim a national title anyway.

 

[coryfly]

If Duke ends up winning the whole thing, UCF will probably go ahead and claim a national title anyway.

Lol. Awesome.

 

[Sir Galahad]

I’m not complained by about the refs or the game, it was a great game. Yes Tacko got away with a couple fouls, he also was called for two that were soft to say the best. Zion is a bull n a china shop, he could have been called for many more charges but he gets the calls because the name on the front of the jersey.

 

[oldsports_]

Er body mad dem Duke Boyz didn't get co cocked out of the tourney. Now dey knoe the wrath Duke gona put on em. Truth!

Fuc$ Duke

 

[WeAreDePaul]

Nothing that happened in this game changed my opinion that Coach K is a shitty coach.

 

[Danger 35 Zone]

Only this much outrage because Duke is the face of college Basketball. Imagine the outrage if Duke got Uk's friendly whistle.

 

[Blue_White_KY]

Their best player went 0/12..........I know of 3 that were wide open.

Foul at the end was offensive on Travis.

Both of those have a luck value, just like tonight's game.

Oh OK.

McGee was 0-12, missed 2-3 wide open ones. Every 3 he took he was falling side shooting off balance. The “he usually hits these shots” goes completely out the window when you are 0-6 or so. Continued to shoot another half dozen off balance clankers. I feel like Kentucky played better than Wofford and we didn’t play a great game. Our defense was better and our offense was good enough. We didn’t even have PJ Washington and still pulled out the win.

Kentucky has won games it should have lost and we’ve lost games we shoulda won. It happens. I don’t think the Wofford game was one of those. Others can and I can understand that.