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Okay. So, to terminate the entity that is alive, you effectively stop it from living. There are different stages of development, certainly. Regardless of the stage, it's still living. Don't think there's a whole lot of wiggle room for justification in terminating a living entity.
No, an embryo at 8 weeks will not survive out of the womb. But you know what else can't survive out of the women independently? A newborn baby. If I leave my newborn baby by himself, he will die. An unborn child is living. A newborn child is living. The only way it's not going to live, generally speaking, is to step in and do something which will effectively end its life. Outside of really extreme circumstances (which I'm clearly not talking about), there is no defense for that.
The similarities between the coronavirus and abortion are abundantly clear. I point them out because it's reeks of hypocrisy and inconsistency. You care about the elderly and others with weak immune systems? That's great. That's reasonable and fully justified. They are a living being, and we should do everything we can to protect them. Yet, suddenly a women doesn't want a baby - and it's totally okay to terminate that entity? Sorry, no. It doesn't work that way. That's selective compassion.
Even if you don't believe a fertilized egg has value or life, you acknowledge that life WILL COME if an intervention isn't performed. You are terminating something that has movement as early as six weeks. A woman aborts a baby because she doesn't want additional burdens and stresses. People also want to keep the status-quo for the economy, their jobs, their lifestyle because they want to minimize stress. What it comes down to, is a lot of us are selfish a-holes that are mostly concerned with ourselves before others.
You're almost there, Jimbo. Almost. Just need to tighten that stance a little.
If you're against killing someone, you should be against others killing someone, too. I know I'm exaggerating your view a little, but it kind of sounds like you're saying, "Yeah, I personally am against murder; I would never murder someone. I just don't think it's my place to say that you can't murder someone. If you think that murdering someone is the best option for your life, then who am I to suggest that what you're doing is wrong? It's none of my business"
We don't mind "forcing our view" on people by keeping rape and spousal abuse illegal, nor should we, as they have an aggrieved party...as does abortion.
It might not be called murder, but you most certainly can get in trouble with the law with killing a bird or rabbit.This will be my last post on it because as others have said it’s pointless. None of us are changing minds.
Not a single person has disagreed with you about the morality of killing a human being. This conversation all started about a discussion around the word “murder.” Murder is a human construct reserved for killing human beings with rights and liberties. You can’t “murder” a bird in the legal sense. You can’t “murder” a rabbit.
What my personal distinction has been is when something transitions from being a living thing to a living human being. You and I disagree on when that transition occurs. Which is fine. Lots of people disagree on when that transition occurs. Believe it or not I have an acquaintance who is super religious who believes masterbation is bad because it kills lots of tiny humans. I don’t get it. Whatever though.
The entire point of this back and forth is that there is near universal agreement on a 55 year old human in fact being a human. There is not universal agreement on when that human actually became a human.
Sorry for hijacking the thread. I see a very strong correlation between the virus and abortion. I've yet to see a coherent counter argument. I'm sure I sound preachy and perhaps even self-righteous. But really, these are moral issues, regarding the sanctity of life. If protecting the life of someone else doesn't matter, then life effectively has no meaning and value. That's what we call nihilism.
It might not be called murder, but you most certainly can get in trouble with the law with killing a bird or rabbit.
This will be my last series of posts on it because as others have said it’s pointless. None of us are changing minds.
Not a single person has disagreed with you about the morality of killing a human being. This conversation all started about a discussion around the word “murder.” Murder is a human construct reserved for killing human beings with rights and liberties. You can’t “murder” a bird in the legal sense. You can’t “murder” a rabbit.
What my personal distinction has been is when something transitions from being a living thing to a living human being. You and I disagree on when that transition occurs. Which is fine. Lots of people disagree on when that transition occurs. Believe it or not I have an acquaintance who is super religious who believes masterbation is bad because it kills lots of tiny humans. I don’t get it. Whatever though.
The entire point of this back and forth is that there is near universal agreement on a 55 year old human in fact being a human. There is not universal agreement on when that human actually became a human.
I’m not against killing someone. I’m not going to personally go take a knife and kill someone. But I’m not against assisted suicide, the death penalty, abortion, or self-defense.
Also, you keep saying that everyone acknowledges that “without intervention a life WILL come from a pregnancy.” I do not accept that statement because it is not accurate. There is not a 100% certainty that human life will result from a pregnancy.
Not so much self-righteous, just unable to view a nuanced distinction from another perspective. You’re a really really bright guy. Which is why it’s weird, because no one is expecting you to change your opinion, but at least be able to grasp the other perspectives.
17M lost their paychecks. Was the cure worse than the disease
Big time semantics in this comparison.we all agree that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do with our body? But some think it’s okay for the government to tell us to keep our body inside or we will be arrested? Wow
Seems a little hypocritical doesn’t it
You’re talking about people who don’t know which bathroom to use here. They need some helpwe all agree that the government shouldn’t be telling us what to do with our body? But some think it’s okay for the government to tell us to keep our body inside or we will be arrested? Wow
Seems a little hypocritical doesn’t it
I'm not necessarily expecting to change anyone's view on abortion. My aim was to show the inconsistency about lecturing others on protecting the vulnerable. If someone wants to remain pro-choice, fine. Just don't think it's consistent logic to criticize someone else who is concerned with their livelihood, their paycheck, their luxuries - if you're not also going to criticize the women who aborts a baby because she's not willing to forego luxuries. Women get abortions to avoid an inconvenience (again, I'm talking about the 99%). That is why some people want the business life, social life, and everything else to return. So if people refrain from lecturing others on breaking quarantine behavior, then I will also drop my discussion on abortion.
Karl Anthony-Towns' mother has passed away from the coronavirus. As someone who knows what its like to lose your mother to illness at 25, I hope those that pray will say one for him and his family today. He is going through a hell that he will never really recover from.
She had it for over a month.Man, she was sick for a long, long time it feels like. Or is time just going really, really slowly?
Pray for them, Bert.I don't like my best internet buddies going at it.
Dukedevils and GE Nole are fantastic posters. They are both smart and they are probably talking past each other.
I was wondering the same thing. The dude is literally spending billions of his own dollars right now to accelerate the timeline we can have a COVID vaccine ready and disseminated.
Link to this rabbit hole that I can go down tonight?Well, for starters, he visited Jeffrey Epstein's pedo island on many occasions. After he had registered as a sex offender. Of course, now he denies that he even considered him a friend or business partner, despite talking about how charming and interesting he was in emails to employees. He also directed millions of dollars to MIT research at Epstein's request. Oh, and his chief adviser was in Epstein's will.
There's evidence that he was likely into the same effed up eugenics-based weirdness as Epstein and I'm sure that was the common bond.
But that's only the tip of the iceberg with Gates. LOL @ thinking that the world's second-richest person isn't a morally bankrupt piece of garbage.
She had it for over a month.
Not sure about underlying conditions. She was 59.I remember, he was one of the first people posting about it. Such a damn shame... she wasn't that old, was she? Anyone know if there were any underlying conditions, or was it just shitty luck?
It all over the place, really. Just saw where a young, healthy young man from NY died from it.Crazy how random it is. A Navy sailor just died from it, was in great shape. Friend of mine’s father just recovered at 75 from it.
Who in the thread lectured others on breaking quarantine, who also wasn’t consistent on the stance about abortion?
I don't like my best internet buddies going at it.
Dukedevils and GE Nole are fantastic posters. They are both smart and they are probably talking past each other.
Agree with most---But I mean, rape seems to be a reasonable and rational reasoning....JMO. A lot of emotions in that case. Sure you can give the baby up for adoption. And that's a plausible argument. But then again, we are not the ones traumatized by the action of being raped. Mentally that hsa to be a struggle. Now, after that, we are asking a woman to give birth to a child that was conceived through a brutal act? Man I just dunno.Sorry, my man. I probably worded that poorly. You're a great poster and I value your inputs. I wasn't specifically talking about you, but really anyone that insists on quarantining, but not overly concerned with abortion. Seemed like several posters were going after ThroughBlue in a previous page. I may have conflated some ideas incorrectly.
My stance on abortion is pretty consistent, however. I'm not ever for abortion. The only time I even think it's completely justified is if the mother's life is in jeopardy. But that's more about protecting life than it is about terminating another life. My dad had to sign a waiver before I was born as my mom's life was in jeopardy; they did what they could to save me, and it turned out okay. The general rule, at least for me, is do everything you can to preserve life until you've exhausted all opportunities. As for rape, again, I would never recommend it, as you're compounding one terrible act with another. I'm qualifying it by removing judgement, as the mother never should have been placed in that situation. Florida details the the reasons for all abortions in the state. Only 119 of the 70,239 abortions were the result of incest or rape. So, 99.83% of the cases were not related to abortion or incest. That's an extremely low percentage. Outliers don't suddenly make it okay for everyone else.
I agree with this. GE Nole was fairly succinct with his posts a couple of times. On at leas two separate occasions, I kind of wanted to ask a clarifying question before jumping right in - but, the lag time between one post to the next drags on too long. So I took an educated guess on what he meant, and I think I missed the mark a few times.
And my points seemed to be side-stepped as well. Why is abortion happening? 99% of the time it's because it's an inconvenience. People are more concerned about their life than someone else's. That is why others are tired of quarantine decorum. They want to retain the same lifestyle. So the conversation quickly devolved into an abortion debate, which wasn't my original contention. But, I enjoy the discussion nonetheless.
Apologies for high-jacking the thread for a couple days.
Agree with most---But I mean, rape seems to be a reasonable and rational reasoning....JMO. A lot of emotions in that case. Sure you can give the baby up for adoption. And that's a plausible argument. But then again, we are not the ones traumatized by the action of being raped. Mentally that hsa to be a struggle. Now, after that, we are asking a woman to give birth to a child that was conceived through a brutal act? Man I just dunno.
Pregnancy due to rape is a tough portal, man.I am against abortion. Make no mistake. But thats tuff.Right. So I'm not placing judgement on any woman that was raped and doesn't want to carry the baby to full term. Her freedom to choose was denied and there's certainly way more justification in her situation than just about anyone else. Just not sure I could encourage anyone to terminate it. It's a tricky situation altogether. Again, abortions due to rape are very, very rare. The link I provided showed that it only accounts for 0.17% of the abortions in Florida. Is ending a living entity immoral? That is the crux of the whole abortion argument.
Sorry, my man. I probably worded that poorly. You're a great poster and I value your inputs. I wasn't specifically talking about you, but really anyone that insists on quarantining, but not overly concerned with abortion. Seemed like several posters were going after ThroughBlue in a previous page. I may have conflated some ideas incorrectly.
My stance on abortion is pretty consistent, however. I'm not ever for abortion. The only time I even think it's completely justified is if the mother's life is in jeopardy. But that's more about protecting life than it is about terminating another life. My dad had to sign a waiver before I was born as my mom's life was in jeopardy; they did what they could to save me, and it turned out okay. The general rule, at least for me, is do everything you can to preserve life until you've exhausted all opportunities. As for rape, again, I would never recommend it, as you're compounding one terrible act with another. I'm qualifying it by removing judgement, as the mother never should have been placed in that situation. Florida details the the reasons for all abortions in the state. Only 119 of the 70,239 abortions were the result of incest or rape. So, 99.83% of the cases were not related to abortion or incest. That's an extremely low percentage. Outliers don't suddenly make it okay for everyone else.
I agree with this. GE Nole was fairly succinct with his posts a couple of times. On at leas two separate occasions, I kind of wanted to ask a clarifying question before jumping right in - but, the lag time between one post to the next drags on too long. So I took an educated guess on what he meant, and I think I missed the mark a few times.
And my points seemed to be side-stepped as well. Why is abortion happening? 99% of the time it's because it's an inconvenience. People are more concerned about their life than someone else's. That is why others are tired of quarantine decorum. They want to retain the same lifestyle. So the conversation quickly devolved into an abortion debate, which wasn't my original contention. But, I enjoy the discussion nonetheless.
Apologies for high-jacking the thread for a couple days.
Right. So I'm not placing judgement on any woman that was raped and doesn't want to carry the baby to full term. Her freedom to choose was denied and there's certainly way more justification in her situation than just about anyone else. Just not sure I could encourage anyone to terminate it. It's a tricky situation altogether. Again, abortions due to rape are very, very rare. The link I provided showed that it only accounts for 0.17% of the abortions in Florida. Is ending a living entity immoral? That is the crux of the whole abortion argument.
youll never read this guy clamoring for more government.FWIW, I did challenge ThroughBlue early on to check if his stance was consistent. And it was. So I tipped my cap and said fair enough.
Link to this rabbit hole that I can go down tonight?
To help derail this even further here are my views on abortion. They are archaic and come from an old man who is not very religious. Again, they are just my opinions.Agree with most---But I mean, rape seems to be a reasonable and rational reasoning....JMO. A lot of emotions in that case. Sure you can give the baby up for adoption. And that's a plausible argument. But then again, we are not the ones traumatized by the action of being raped. Mentally that hsa to be a struggle. Now, after that, we are asking a woman to give birth to a child that was conceived through a brutal act? Man I just dunno.
To help derail this even further here are my views on abortion. They are archaic and come from an old man who is not very religious. Again, they are just my opinions.
Abortion means ending a potential human life. I will not ever be involved in one as I think it is murder. But it is not my responsibility to force my views on others. I will not vote for a politician who endorses wide open abortion.
The government should not make moral judgements nor should they allow mass murder. Abortion has been legal since 1973. I feel that it should not be made illegal, but I really believe that abortion should only be for the first few weeks or in special instances of the mother’s health, rape and incest.
Remember these are just my opinions and I own all the incongruences in my argument.
Is there a breakdown on age and race relating to abortions?