OT- death projections 60k

[GE Nole]

That's a miscarriage, which is not intentional. An abortion is a calculated decision to terminate a beating heart. And the unborn baby has other elements to it - its own DNA, its own circulatory system, feet, hands, a brain. To terminate that is morally indefensible, IMO (outside of extreme circumstances).

It is intentional. It’s intentional by the mothers body.

And yes, we all understand the moral argument. Many of us probably even agree with your moral stance (which even your own stance allows for exceptions). But that hasn’t been the discussion here. It’s not one of morals. It’s one of the definition of what it means to be a human with liberties.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

Scary stuff, but the naysayers who don’t think it’s a big deal will find out by way of Darwinism. So, win-win.

Btw, I doubt any of us that work in an office environment will be back in there until late summer at the earliest. They’ll probably stagger people coming into their place of work also, to not take chances.

Truthfully, unless there is a reason to go into an office I can see this accelerating work from home permanently. As I tell my subordinates, if I have to see you to tell you're doing your job, you can't work for me.

If your job is truly something that can be done at home and you have performance metrics, I can only see upside to making it permanent.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Death is ok. Just like pooping, it's a part of life.

I think assisted suicide should be perfectly legal.

 

[dukedevilz]

@dukedevilz I’m genuinely curious, what do you think differentiates a human being from other mammals? Say, a squirrel. What makes a human a human?

We're the only species in the universe that has the cognitive reasoning and the range of emotions that we display. We're clearly at the top of the totem pole. But with any species, one of the top priorities should be protecting our own - whether that's the elderly or the unborn. I think it's radically inconsistent to say one has value, and the other does not. Both are vulnerable, and both need to be protected.

So yes, you could say that human life has more value than animal life. If I go on a 10-mile run, it's very possible I've crushed a couple dozens insects and bugs. along the way. And anyone that resides in a house or an apartment is undoubtedly living on a property that has had extensive work done on the foundation - which inevitably led to the demise of hundreds and hundreds of bugs and insects, and other creatures. So if you live anywhere in the modern world, you at the bare minimum value human life, at least subconsciously, more than animal life.

 

[UL_1986]

Death is ok. Just like pooping, it's a part of life.

I think assisted suicide should be perfectly legal.

I’ve said this for years. Doesn’t Oregon do it?

 

[WeAreDePaul]

I'm tapping out on the abortion discussion. Don't care enough. Also too busy debating with my wife over what to name our incoming puppies. We're getting 2 puppy yellow labs. Our 13 year old lab passed away a year ago. Moved from our city condo to a suburban house backed up to awesome park last week. So gonna get 2 puppies instead of one.

First name is easy, going with Rayford in honor of my favorite basketball player, Rayford Trae Young. Next one is where the debate starts. She wants Luka in honor of Luka Doncic. We're both big fans so I'd be cool with that. I want to go with Mister Lahey in honor of Mister Lahey from Trailer Park Boys. Tough decision.

Luka would be easier to work with, but Mister Lahey would be a pretty unique name I think. And he's a hilarious tv character, actor passed away in 2017.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I'm tapping out on the abortion discussion. Don't care enough. Also too busy debating with my wife over what to name our incoming puppies. We're getting 2 puppy yellow labs. Our 13 year old lab passed away a year ago. Moved from our city condo to a suburban house backed up to awesome park last week. So gonna get 2 puppies instead of one.

First name is easy, going with Rayford in honor of my favorite basketball player, Rayford Trae Young. Next one is where the debate starts. She wants Luka in honor of Luka Doncic. We're both big fans so I'd be cool with that. I want to go with Mister Lahey in honor of Mister Lahey from Trailer Park Boys. Tough decision.

Luka would be easier to work with, but Mister Lahey would be a pretty unique name I think. And he's a hilarious tv character, actor passed away in 2017.

gotta go with Mister Lahey.



watching that, I can't help but think about @Bert Higginbotha

 

[dukedevilz]

And no, not all abortions are about inconvenience.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what is an example of someone having an abortion that wasn't about inconvenience?

 

[tw3301]

Death is ok. Just like pooping, it's a part of life.

I think assisted suicide should be perfectly legal.

I think it should be mandatory for UNC fans.

 

[tw3301]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what is an example of someone having an abortion that wasn't about inconvenience?

Rape, but of course that's a very small percentage.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what is an example of someone having an abortion that wasn't about inconvenience?

Doing their part to not overpopulate and drag down the economy with food stamps, whatever it's called with taxes, and just don't give a shit about kids they already have.

My wife works with kids everyday that should have been aborted by their parents, prior to birth instead of afterwards.

They kick out 18 year olds on the street b/c DHS will not longer fund their stay after they turn 18. They don't have a house, job, or any relatives to depend on. Absolutely soul crunching for my wife. She does everything to make sure they have some place to go. ie shelter, group homes, half way houses etc. But that's just her. The facility does nothing. *She did find a place that's like a tech school that will house and train young adults. It's not easy, wake up, learn, work, eat, go to bed.

*I should have prefaced that with my works at a drug and alcohol rehab for kids 12-18 in the medical district of downtown Memphis. Some are court appointed, some family appointed. They live there. Right now with the Covid, teachers are not allowed, nor are musicians to teach music therapy, etc. Only ones allowed are staff and nurses to administer drugs.


**one thing I'm a bit grateful for with this covid is she went from salary to per hour the first of January. She's currently working six 12 hours days right now. Her checks are outstanding and just goes straight in the bank. One downside. She has 6 weeks of vacation time, which will expire at the end of June, and she can't use it.

 

[TheDude1]

Rape, but of course that's a very small percentage.

Also in cases where the mother could suffer some medical issue because of it.

Agreed about the abortion thing. It’s a dumb point that I’m not wasting any more time on. The value of my grandmother is not the same as a clump of cells. But yes, it is a fetus, not a baby. That’s like a literal, medical difference.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I wonder what the world would be like today if Jesus Christ was aborted.

First thought is less wars.

 

[I am stupid]

She wants Luka in honor of Luka Doncic. We're both big fans so I'd be cool with that. I want to go with Mister Lahey in honor of Mister Lahey from Trailer Park Boys. Tough decision.

Luka would be easier to work with, but Mister Lahey would be a pretty unique name I think.

Just tell her you are worried people may think you named it after Luka Magnotta. You are welcome.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Just tell her you are worried people may think you named it after Luka Magnotta. You are welcome.

Sickahhh,another video I wished I never looked up.

that is by far the most messed up video I have ever seen. I'd watch ppl putting fishhooks into kittens and using them as bait for large fish than that video.

 

[dukedevilz]

Right, so rape and potentially causing harm to the mother both fall under the condition that I previously stated - extreme circumstances. That's a very, very small minority. So, 99% of those aborting the unborn baby do so because it's an inconvenience.

Everyone that aborts a baby, even if they don't believe in the value of it initially, knows that a human life will come eventually, if left to its natural processes. The baby is aborted to remove a huge burden. That is the point I'm making. People get abortions to remove stress. And that's exactly why those who are pro-economy/minimal restrictions, who are willing to risk exposing others, are espousing very, very similar beliefs. You don't mind losing/exposing/sacrificing others, whether it's an elderly person or an unborn, because removing the burden, removing the stress, removing the inconvenience, facilitates our desire to retain our current lifestyle.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I had a half sister once who aborted 7 kids. 2 of which were twins. I'm so glad her loser of a father hit my mom and gave her all the reason she need to leave. F^ck that POS and his whore of a daughter.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

I wonder what the world would be like today if Jesus Christ was aborted.

First thought is less wars.

He'd be replaced with Allah or whatever similar religion follows the same myth.

 

[GE Nole]

We're the only species in the universe that has the cognitive reasoning and the range of emotions that we display. We're clearly at the top of the totem pole. But with any species, one of the top priorities should be protecting our own - whether that's the elderly or the unborn. I think it's radically inconsistent to say one has value, and the other does not. Both are vulnerable, and both need to be protected.

So yes, you could say that human life has more value than animal life. If I go on a 10-mile run, it's very possible I've crushed a couple dozens insects and bugs. along the way. And anyone that resides in a house or an apartment is undoubtedly living on a property that has had extensive work done on the foundation - which inevitably led to the demise of hundreds and hundreds of bugs and insects, and other creatures. So if you live anywhere in the modern world, you at the bare minimum value human life, at least subconsciously, more than animal life.

You said it at the very top. Cognitive reason. I’ll add the ability to be aware of ones own consciousness and place in the world. “I think, therefore I am.”

That right there is what a 70 year old can do that a 10 week old fetus cannot do. Regardless of the moral ground on which one stands, there simply isn’t consensus on whether or not a fetus is a “human” as we define what it is to be human.

And that doesn’t even begin to get into the world of still borns.

 

[dukedevilz]

You said it at the very top. Cognitive reason. I’ll add the ability to be aware of ones own consciousness and place in the world. “I think, therefore I am.”

That right there is what a 70 year old can do that a 10 week old fetus cannot do. Regardless of the moral ground on which one stands, there simply isn’t consensus on whether or not a fetus is a “human” as we define what it is to be human.

And that doesn’t even begin to get into the world of still borns.

Do those in a coma have cognitive reasoning? Nope. But, they have the potential to regain that ability. And an unborn baby, if left to its natural processes, will have that ability, too. It's a life unless you take that life away.

 

[GE Nole]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what is an example of someone having an abortion that wasn't about inconvenience?

Rape (often resulting from incest), health of the mother, health of the fetus, inability of the mother to carry the term (different from the overall health).

Yes, these are the vast minority. But I’m not the one who made an absolute statement about all abortions being a result of inconvenience, nor am I the one who said all pregnancies will result in a living baby if left to nature.

 

[GE Nole]

Do those in a coma have cognitive reasoning? Nope. But, they have the potential to regain that ability. And an unborn baby, if left to its natural processes, will have that ability, too. It's a life unless you take that life away.

No, it’s a potential life if left to natural processes. Lots of babies are still born. I know it seems like I’m splitting hairs, but I’m not. Different words have different definitions for a reason.

A butterfly and a caterpillar come from the same life form. Nonetheless, a caterpillar is not a butterfly. Similarly, a pine cone is not a pine tree. A pine cone, if left to nature, has the potential to develop into a pine tree. But no one ever kicked a pine cone and said they just kicked a tree.

A fetus is a fetus. A baby is a baby. There is no guarantee that a fetus will become a living baby, even if left to nature. It does, however, have the potential to.

 

[GE Nole]

Do those in a coma have cognitive reasoning? Nope. But, they have the potential to regain that ability. And an unborn baby, if left to its natural processes, will have that ability, too. It's a life unless you take that life away.

And fwiw, we also end the lives of people who are in a coma/on life support and no longer have brain activity.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

What's worse than 10 dead babies in one dumpster?

One dead baby in 10 dumpsters.

 

[IUfanBorden]

What's worse than 10 dead babies in one dumpster?

One dead baby in 10 dumpsters.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I'm bored.My bad.

 

[dukedevilz]

Rape (often resulting from incest), health of the mother, health of the fetus, inability of the mother to carry the term (different from the overall health).

Yes, these are the vast minority. But I’m not the one who made an absolute statement about all abortions being a result of inconvenience, nor am I the one who said all pregnancies will result in a living baby if left to nature.

I actually never made an absolute statement - I can understand if it came across like that, though. I made two prior posts which allowed exceptions in extreme cases like the ones you are mentioning. There is a substantial difference in those extreme cases, which are largely out of one's control, and those who abort babies because - well, it's an inconvenience.

No, it’s a potential life if left to natural processes. Lots of babies are still born. I know it seems like I’m splitting hairs, but I’m not. Different words have different definitions for a reason.

A butterfly and a caterpillar come from the same life form. Nonetheless, a caterpillar is not a butterfly. Similarly, a pine cone is not a pine tree. A pine cone, if left to nature, has the potential to develop into a pine tree. But no one ever kicked a pine cone and said they just kicked a tree.

A fetus is a fetus. A baby is a baby. There is no guarantee that a fetus will become a living baby, even if left to nature. It does, however, have the potential to.

Miscarriages are estimated at only 10-20% of pregnancies. The vast majority of pregnancies will result in a newborn baby.

And fwiw, we also end the lives of people who are in a coma/on life support and no longer have brain activity.

87% of those who score between an 11-15 come out of a coma. And I'm obviously not talking about those who are brain dead. I don't have the right to kill you, should you fall into a coma tomorrow. An unborn baby also isn't brain dead. The development of the brain begins just a few weeks after conception. Seven weeks after conception, the first neurons and synapses begin to form. Nothing about that resembles a lifeless creature.

So my overall point remains. With the exception of rape and a mother's life being threatened and a few other extreme cases, mothers almost always get an abortion because it's an inconvenience. Those mothers want to retain their autonomy, their lifestyle, the status quo. The same exists for people who want the economy to remain strong and who are willing to risk exposing the elderly. The parallels are strikingly similar.

 

[dukedevilz]

Also in cases where the mother could suffer some medical issue because of it.

Agreed about the abortion thing. It’s a dumb point that I’m not wasting any more time on. The value of my grandmother is not the same as a clump of cells. But yes, it is a fetus, not a baby. That’s like a literal, medical difference.

Fetus literally means an unborn human baby.

And I've never heard a pregnant women say she's having a clump of cells. I guess my 1st child that was still in the mother's womb at 40 weeks was a clump of cells - and my 2nd child, who was born at 32 weeks, was a newborn baby? Does that seem logical that an unborn child, 40 weeks after conception doesn't have value or life - yet one that is 32 weeks does?

 

[GE Nole]

There is a substantial difference in those extreme cases, which are largely out of one's control, and those who abort babies because - well, it's an inconvenience.

The vast majority of pregnancies will result in a newborn baby.

With the exception of rape and a mother's life being threatened and a few other extreme cases, mothers almost always get an abortion because it's an inconvenience. /QUOTE]

There is a big difference between ^^^^^^^ those statements and the ones below.

because doing so would reduce financial and emotional stress. This is exactly why people get abortions.

The bottom line, is it's an inconvenience.

What matters is that an unborn baby has a beating heart.

Pregnant women know that if that don't intervene at some point, it will undoubtedly be a human life.

Everyone that aborts a baby, even if they don't believe in the value of it initially, knows that a human life will come eventually, if left to its natural processes. The baby is aborted to remove a huge burden.

Do you see the differences?

 

[GE Nole]

Of course I would mess up the quotes trying to do this on my phone. Sorry.

 

[TheDude1]

Fetus literally means an unborn human baby.

And I've never heard a pregnant women say she's having a clump of cells. I guess my 1st child that was still in the mother's womb at 40 weeks was a clump of cells - and my 2nd child, who was born at 32 weeks, was a newborn baby? Does that seem logical that an unborn child, 40 weeks after conception doesn't have value or life - yet one that is 32 weeks does?

DD, I get what people SAY, but literally, when it is in the womb, it is a fetus. When it comes OUT, it is a baby. I get that people say "baby" but technically it is a fetus.

And here is the thing. You are trying to present a fetus as having the same value as a fully grown human being, who has spent years on earth and developed relationships and has connected with other humans in a meaningful way. But whether or not people say they are having a baby or a clump of cells, there are many people who do not believe that this:

Is the same as this:

Now, I am not saying anything beyond that. I'm not arguing about number of weeks or whathaveyou. I am not opining about what I personally believe in terms of abortion. I'm just saying that you trying to make some point by comparing abortion of a fetus to the death of a mature, grown human is not meaningful.

I don't think this is really worth arguing about anymore, right? I mean, obviously I am not going to agree with you, and you aren't going to agree with me.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

there are many people who do not believe that this:

Is the same as this:

that fetus don't look asian at all.

 

[coryfly]

My only real issue with saying abortions should be illegal based on morality is making exceptions. If it is truly immoral then it is immoral, not only immoral in specific situations. That has always been a strange take. Seems like just a different form of relativism.

 

[oldsports_]

If a pregnant woman is killed, can the person who caused the death be charged with double murder?

 

[lurkeraspect84]

How do you stop a baby from crawling around in circles?



Nail it’s other hand to the floor


What is the difference between a baby and a onion?


No one cries when you chop up the baby.

 

[JimboBBN]

If a pregnant woman is killed, can the person who caused the death be charged with double murder?

I think they can, right?

 

[TheDude1]

My only real issue with saying abortions should be illegal based on morality is making exceptions. If it is truly immoral then it is immoral, not only immoral in specific situations. That has always been a strange take. Seems like just a different form of relativism.

Most of religion is. People always think that other people are going to hell But not them, people always make exceptions about the Bible because there’s things they don’t want to endorse (well I believe this Bible part, but I think that part is just a parable)...people tend to believe whatever parts they want to believe and then conveniently discard certain other parts, like stoning people and the other weird stuff.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Politics, abortion and now religion.


Great thread.

 

[oldsports_]

I think they can, right?

39 states have fetal homicide laws.
The hypocrisy is unreal

 

[GE Nole]

My only real issue with saying abortions should be illegal based on morality is making exceptions. If it is truly immoral then it is immoral, not only immoral in specific situations. That has always been a strange take. Seems like just a different form of relativism.

I agree.