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MJ vs Lebitch

Would you have Lebron on your team if you were building a team from players of his generation?


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A debate that will never end one way or another, IMO.

MJ definitely had that killer instinct, Kobe too. But MJ never had to play against players like Steph Curry who can hit from anywhere inside half court. Never had to play against a KD, who is 6'11", can play any position, and shoots nearly 40% from 3. Giannis, Westbrook, Harden, Kawhi, etc. There simply weren't players like that, back in the 90's.

As has been discussed before, the game has evolved. Players are more skilled, more athletic, and there are more of them. The game has changed.

Steve Kerr was #1 in 3pt% in 1995, at 52.3% - but he only took 2 a game (he never even averaged 3.0 attempts in any season). John Starks was the leader in makes and attempts in 1995, he hit 217 / 611 3PA, good for 35.5%. Curry shoots 44% from 3, and averages 10+ a game. He's already hit 236 this season (on 531 attempts), and we're only at the All-Star break.

I think Jordan would still be incredible in today's NBA, I just don't think that the majority of the rest of the 90's NBA would be as good as the role players of today.
How effective would the big men of the 80s and 90s be today?

You think guys like Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Malone would still be effective today?

Heck Shaq was still around when a lot of these older vets were just getting their feet wet.
 
Actually I think Lebron sincerely wants to be a force of positive social change. I know he’s genuine about his involvement with low-income schools.

Sure, that could definitely be true. Like I said, I don't dislike Lebron anyway. I don't care for his antics on the court at times but he isn't alone there in terms of NBA guys. I just think this whole idea of his character being so much better than Jordan's pretty silly. That usually just comes from people who dislike Jordan or are very pro-Lebron.
 
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Jordan is famous for being an absolute asshole to everyone. An abrasive, aggressive asshole... always looking to cut someone down, to beat someone, to dominate someone, whether it be a newly drafted rookie or a high school kid at a camp or an aging coach. Players , assistant coaches, coaches... everyone. LeBron, not so much.

I think you dislike listening to LeBron because of his social/political status and/or message, because if you just listen to him shooting the breeze, he’s a pretty good talker, and thoughtful for an athlete.
Agree w the Dude. Also, MJ has an IDGAF attitude? Ha. He tailored his image w smiles because “Republicans buy shoes too!” To say he didn’t care is laughable. He was a total phony in the media.
 
Sure, that could definitely be true. Like I said, I don't dislike Lebron anyway. I don't care for his antics on the court at times but he isn't alone there in terms of NBA guys. I just think this whole idea of his character being so much better than Jordan's pretty silly. That usually just comes from people who dislike Jordan or are very pro-Lebron.

Oh gotcha. Fair enough. Personally, I don't care either way. I don't watch sports to find wonderful role models and warm-hearted people. I watch sports to see incredible athletes do masterful things on their court/field/course.

It's the same with movies. If I boycotted every actor who was an ass hole or a cheat, I'd never get to watch any movies.
 
Oh gotcha. Fair enough. Personally, I don't care either way. I don't watch sports to find wonderful role models and warm-hearted people. I watch sports to see incredible athletes do masterful things on their court/field/course.

It's the same with movies. If I boycotted every actor who was an ass hole or a cheat, I'd never get to watch any movies.

That's where people are different and to each their own. I appreciate rooting for good people. It's why I go see Pearl Jam and Michael Franti every chance I get. Good people bring good vibes, and hopefully some of it wears off on us.
 
Oh gotcha. Fair enough. Personally, I don't care either way. I don't watch sports to find wonderful role models and warm-hearted people. I watch sports to see incredible athletes do masterful things on their court/field/course.

It's the same with movies. If I boycotted every actor who was an ass hole or a cheat, I'd never get to watch any movies.

Yeah, I agree. I don't let anyone's views or politics impact where I eat, shop, what I watch, etc... That has always seemed weak to me, like you are letting other people control your decisions.
 
There is no doubt in my mind about that. I’ve seen both of their careers in their entirety as well.
Nominated for a "Postie"

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Here's when it all changed for me regarding MJ. There were the countless stories of him being an asshole, but I got to see what I think was an example of this in the flesh. When I taught in NC for a few years, it just so happened that a childhood friend of MJ's was in our school, well at the high school next door to us (I was teaching 7th grade at the time). Anyway, a guy I work with is friends with MJ's friend so we started going golfing with him. I was skeptical that it was actually a true friend of MJ's until I saw him carrying MJ's dead dad's body in the casket at the funeral on the news. So, yeah. He was VERY tight with MJ. So, how did he behave on the golf course?

Well, he carried a 5th of crown and chain-smoked cigars at all times, which hell, I respected that. What I didn't is the way he acted on the course. ALWAYS running his mouth, talking shit, and thought he was the coolest guy on the planet. He was so loud and obnoxious and all I could think is, "He thinks it's okay to act like this because MJ does when they golf together." To this day I'm convinced he was a spitting image of MJ on the course. And it just disgusted me that the GOAT was a douche bag. There are more stories, but other than my dad seeing him run a couple autograph seekers off the golf course, it's all I can vouch for personally. Anyway, he can be the GOAT, but he's also an asshole.
 
That's where people are different and to each their own. I appreciate rooting for good people. It's why I go see Pearl Jam and Michael Franti every chance I get. Good people bring good vibes, and hopefully some of it wears off on us.

I appreciate rooting for good people. It's great to hear about the stories of a guy like Warrick Dunn or Deshaun Watson.

I'm just not gonna stop watching a player or think less of their on-court abilities because of anything they do off-court.
 
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Actually I think Lebron sincerely wants to be a force of positive social change. I know he’s genuine about his involvement with low-income schools.
It is a great thing for someone of Lebron's status to get involved with the progression of low income schools. Even if it costs tax payers more than advertised, that is something tax money should go to. But my issue with the statement that he sincerely wants to be a force for social change is his actions have set back that social change. His falsehoods on politics and him making up a story about someone vandalizing his property with racial graffiti are setbacks for change. He is part of a growing problem with society where people fabricate stories to push agendas knowing that nothing will be done about it because by saying that you are a victim of a potential crime makes you a victim even if the crime is real or not. He regurgitates the same talking points of the resisters without ever having an original or unique thought. People like him for it basically because they are in line with his talking points. People don't like him for it because they are not in line with his talking points. At least coryfly can be objective and reasonable on the topic.

But anyways, he has every right to have and share his beliefs. I would prefer not to hear them, and to be honest, I use all of my abilities to avoid hearing them. I don't watch. But my judgment of him as a basketball player is strictly based off his on the court actions.
 
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It is a great thing for someone of Lebron's status to get involved with the progression of low income schools. Even if it costs tax payers more than advertised, that is something tax money should go to. But my issue with the statement that he sincerely wants to be a force for social change is his actions have set back that social change. His falsehoods on politics and him making up a story about someone vandalizing his property with racial graffiti are setbacks for change. He is part of a growing problem with society where people fabricate stories to push agendas knowing that nothing will be done about it because by saying that you are a victim of a potential crime makes you a victim even if the crime is real or not. He regurgitates the same talking points of the resisters without ever having an original or unique thought. People like him for it basically because they are in line with his talking points. People don't like him for it because they are not in line with his talking points. At least coryfly can be objective and reasonable on the topic.

But anyways, he has every right to have and share his beliefs. I would prefer not to hear them, and to be honest, I use all of my abilities to avoid hearing them. I don't watch. But my judgment of him as a basketball player is strictly based off his on the court actions.

Hmm, I didn't know about him lying about being vandalized. Weird. Truthfully, I tune most political activism stuff out. Don't really follow twitter much and don't even have Facebook.
 
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LeBron was better than #45 Jordan at least. #45 Jordan was trash. The Wizards version was terrible.
 
Hmm, I didn't know about him lying about being vandalized. Weird. Truthfully, I tune most political activism stuff out. Don't really follow twitter much and don't even have Facebook.

Wait... LeBron faked someone vandalizing his property? I don't remember this at ALL. What's the story there?

As for him regurgitating talking points... I think at this point your view is really getting clouded by your politics (and I understand the same might be happening for me.) LeBron straight up said that he grew up institutionalized and not wanting anything to do with white people because of where he grew up and the people he grew up with, and said that he later realized how horrible this was. I don't remember many high profile athletes admitting something that is this raw, true, and potentially bad for him in terms of fans (and particularly poor black fans... it can be rough, if you basically say that poor black people are f'ed up with how they view white people). Having seen LeBron talk many times about this, in his show on HBO and the interviews in "Shut Up And Dribble" and countless other places, I just don't see it the way you do. The guy is super bright... ask Coach K about that... and I think some of the reactions he gets is simply because he DOES take a political stance, and it is one some people don't agree with.

I doubt we'll find common ground on this one, so I'm good letting it go.

As for Jordan, I think the Chuck Daly/golfing story is the one that sort of made me give the final eye roll. Daly was what... 60 something at the time? But there are countless others out there. Maybe the best of all time, an absolute KILLER... but he seemed like a dick. Kobe seems the same way. The very top competitive guys... some of them just don't turn that off.
 
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That's where people are different and to each their own. I appreciate rooting for good people. It's why I go see Pearl Jam and Michael Franti every chance I get. Good people bring good vibes, and hopefully some of it wears off on us.

I think that is pretty admirable, and honestly a better way to approach things.
 
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Wait... LeBron faked someone vandalizing his property? I don't remember this at ALL. What's the story there?

As for him regurgitating talking points... I think at this point your view is really getting clouded by your politics (and I understand the same might be happening for me.) LeBron straight up said that he grew up institutionalized and not wanting anything to do with white people because of where he grew up and the people he grew up with, and said that he later realized how horrible this was. I don't remember many high profile athletes admitting something that is this raw, true, and potentially bad for him in terms of fans (and particularly poor black fans... it can be rough, if you basically say that poor black people are f'ed up with how they view white people). Having seen LeBron talk many times about this, in his show on HBO and the interviews in "Shut Up And Dribble" and countless other places, I just don't see it the way you do. The guy is super bright... ask Coach K about that... and I think some of the reactions he gets is simply because he DOES take a political stance, and it is one some people don't agree with.

As for Jordan, I think the Chuck Daly/golfing story is the one that sort of made me give the final eye roll. Daly was what... 60 something at the time? But there are countless others out there. Maybe the best of all time, an absolute KILLER... but he seemed like a dick. Kobe seems the same way. The very top competitive guys... some of them just don't turn that off.

I think you quoted the wrong person.
 
I think you quoted the wrong person.

No no, I was just agreeing with you that I hadn't heard anything about him faking vandalization of his property. To be honest, that feels like a BS take, but maybe Letsgo knows something we don't.
 
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No no, I was just agreeing with you that I hadn't heard anything about him faking vandalization of his property. To be honest, that feels like a BS take, but maybe Letsgo knows something we don't.
We have been over this. Not sure why you selectively forget things. It can't be proven to be a lie. But it certainly doesn't seem likely that it is the truth. Google it. News networks went nuts over it even though there was nothing to suggest the events took place. Once the LAPD said there was no evidence to support his claim and they were not going forward with the investigation, it disappeared from the light.
 
MJ never went to sleep in the finals like LBJ, case closed.
An opinion LBJ went to sleep in a series where he went for 34, 8+ and 10, shooting 52%, even made 84% of his FTs vs. a guy who left his team for a season+?

Might want to reopen your case, but that was funny.
 
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I heard a story about Bird today where he shot most of his shots with his left hand in some game (and made most) and when asked why said he was saving his right hand for the Lakers. Dude was a crap talking king and beast of a player.



You have become the king of trolls on here, lol.


As for quitting, I'm assuming those equating Jordan to Lebron here are also just trolling. No way anyone sees retiring and not trying in a game as the same thing.
Nor would anyone think a guy who went for 34, 8.5 and 10 wasn't trying
 
Nice try. Nothing in the rules of life says you can't retire and then change your mind about it later in life. No one's going to go back in time and demand that your retirement party be changed to a quitter party.

Now, quitting on your team MID-GAME and doing it multiple times is the sure sign of a douchebag/POS. Only you would try and dispute that or mitigate it by comparing it to a grief stricken athlete retiring from his sport after the season and winning a championship.

Too easy.
I think what you meant to say was "ya got me, dt, but I am trying to become President of the Never Admit You are Wrong Club of Rivals" so I cannot very well own up to my gaffe."

so grief stricken he quit a sport to.....play a sport?

Post of the Year nomination.
 
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Wait, what’s the story of James quitting mid game multiple times?
he made it up.

One guy even said he quit in the Finals last year where he averaged 34, 8+, 10, shot 52% from the field and 84% from the line.

You cannot make this stuff up.
 
Sure, that could definitely be true. Like I said, I don't dislike Lebron anyway. I don't care for his antics on the court at times but he isn't alone there in terms of NBA guys. I just think this whole idea of his character being so much better than Jordan's pretty silly. That usually just comes from people who dislike Jordan or are very pro-Lebron.
I do think his off the court character is above MJ's but don't disagree about on court. I could certainly live without him being a passive aggressive drama queen.
 
I am interested to know how many people that dislike Lebron for one reason or another would not have him on their team. The criteria for that would be a team built with players of the same generation. Not an all time NBA team.

I am going to add a poll to the OP.
 
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We have been over this. Not sure why you selectively forget things. It can't be proven to be a lie. But it certainly doesn't seem likely that it is the truth. Google it. News networks went nuts over it even though there was nothing to suggest the events took place. Once the LAPD said there was no evidence to support his claim and they were not going forward with the investigation, it disappeared from the light.

There is absolutely NO evidence or reason to believe that Lebron James took a can of spray paint and vandalized his own front gate to make a political point. Absolutely none. (And yes, various people have written about seeing photos of the graffiti.) You'd have to be pretty f'ed up to do that.

And for you to say it doesn't seem likely to be the truth is silly. Just in the last few months we have politicians dressing up in blackface and klan outfits, a GM plant in Toledo being revealed to be a toxic racist dump, a bunch of high schoolers taking a photo doing a Nazi salute, a black fireman confronted with a noose by white coworkers, a Boston College kid arrested for writing racist graffiti all over school, a student at Goucher College arrested for the same, a black TV actor assaulted, and on and on and on. There is horrible racist shit done every day in this world, and it is completely believable that it would happen to an incredibly high profile and outspoken individual.

Again... I think this is mostly about politics for you. I just don't see much coming of this discussion.
 
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@dtgold88 doing work, even calling Bron "a passive aggressive drama queen." When you can admit the bad with the good, I respect your opinion. I've said to my MJ-lover friends (there are many) that Bron should just shut up sometimes.

Sidenote: My wife printed off old MJ Valentine's Day cards for my son to take to school yesterday. He was the hit of the gotdamn 3rd grade. Granted we live in Illinois, but MJ is still king (to 8-year olds), and it's kind of crazy.
 
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BTW, hard yes on the poll. Coach K certainly seemed to want him and value him, and I trust Coach K's opinion on basketball.
 
There is absolutely NO evidence or reason to believe that Lebron James took a can of spray paint and vandalized his own front gate to make a political point. Absolutely none. (And yes, various people have written about seeing photos of the graffiti.) You'd have to be pretty f'ed up to do that.

And for you to say it doesn't seem likely to be the truth is silly. Just in the last few months we have politicians dressing up in blackface and klan outfits, a GM plant in Toledo being revealed to be a toxic racist dump, a bunch of high schoolers taking a photo doing a Nazi salute, a black fireman confronted with a noose by white coworkers, a Boston College kid arrested for writing racist graffiti all over school, a student at Goucher College arrested for the same, a black TV actor assaulted, and on and on and on. There is horrible racist shit done every day in this world, and it is completely believable that it would happen to an incredibly high profile and outspoken individual.

Again... I think this is mostly about politics for you.
Admittedly I didn't continue reading your post after you suggested that I was saying he spray painted his own fence. I am saying his fence was never vandalized. No surveillance. No witnesses. Just a picture that wasn't believable to the law enforcement that saw the picture. Just google it.

*regrettably went back and read it. Holy shit Dude. I am not saying that every reported case of racism is fake. You listed a bunch of things that may be true. People suck. But you are leaving out a bunch of cases that have been proven to be fake. I am talking about THIS case involving Lebron.
 
@dtgold88 doing work, even calling Bron "a passive aggressive drama queen." When you can admit the bad with the good, I respect your opinion. I've said to my MJ-lover friends (there are many) that Bron should just shut up sometimes.

Sidenote: My wife printed off old MJ Valentine's Day cards for my son to take to school yesterday. He was the hit of the gotdamn 3rd grade. Granted we live in Illinois, but MJ is still king (to 8-year olds), and it's kind of crazy.
I think too many not able to see both sides is the biggest issue in sports discussions. Too much like politics. Just never an in between with fans. Also, most players, coaches, etc are great, suck or they love or hate them. Just no in between.

I've said a number of times I don't like Lebron but appreciate what he did for a title I never thought I'd see...and hoped he'd stay.
 
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I am interested to know how many people that dislike Lebron for one reason or another would not have him on their team. The criteria for that would be a team built with players of the same generation. Not an all time NBA team.

I am going to add a poll to the OP.
Just said something like this...truth be told I don't like him, but wish he would have stayed.
 
Admittedly I didn't continue reading your post after you suggested that I was saying he spray painted his own fence. I am saying his fence was never vandalized. No surveillance. No witnesses. Just a picture that wasn't believable to the law enforcement that saw the picture. Just google it.

*sigh*

So you said his gate wasn't vandalized. I write about that, assuming that you mean it wasn't vandalized, it was done purposefully. You don't read what I wrote, and don't bother to clarify. Gotcha.

So you tell me... what happened? Did he have someone do it for him? Or are you saying NOTHING got written, and writers like J.A. Adande, who wrote that they saw the photos of it, are lying, and that James literally faked all of this just to make a public statement about race, even though he has commented on race publically a million times before... that somehow he had to invent something here to do it for some reason? Fill me in on the conspiracy.
 
*sigh*

So you said his gate wasn't vandalized. I write about that. You don't read what I wrote. Gotcha.

So you tell me... what happened? Did he have someone do it for him? Or are you saying NOTHING got written, and writers like J.A. Adande, who wrote that they saw the photos of it, are lying? Fill me in.
Edited my post. So you believe that at 530 in the morning Lebron so happened to have the paint to paint an entire fence in the 15 minutes it took for police to get there? There is nothing suspicious about there being no video evidence in a neighborhood full of surveillance cameras? The police must be racist for not following up on a case where the alleged victim purposely destroyed evidence that would prove his claims, huh? Quit saying that it is only about politics with me when the same could be said about your choice to believe that garbage.
 
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