Your 2023-2024 NCAA champions
- Thread starter ThePhog08
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Hello?!?! This is only his third season as Head Coach. And, in just his second year he will have two first-round draft picks in the upcoming draft. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Woodson took over shit organizations----and turned them around. He has great NBA experience, and every dude that played for him, speaks highly of him. Carmelo was a huge selling point with MM.
Woody then took over an IU program ran even deeper into the ground by Miller, and proceeded to go to back to back NCAAT's---going from 9th to 2nd in the B10---all the while losing his starting PG.
If there was shady shit going on, ----WAAAAAAAAAH. Like KU is some innocent program. Get over it, bruh....
Going to KU or IU is not some huge drop-off....He'll get just as much exposure at Indiana, opportunity for more PT, AND get to play for a coach with NBA connects, experience, and rather you wanna acknowledge or not, a guy who is highly respected in the league...
About to be two----with one a likely lotto pick. Not bad for a dude with two years of CBB coaching under his belt.
Now tell us how many NBA All-Stars/greats are endorsing Self? And look I think Self is great. But if you're a 5* dude and Carmelo Anthony tells you---"Woodson is the guy to play for..."---What you gonna do?
Hello…..who said this?
Call me crazy, but maybe the title of “best developer of players for the NBA” should go to someone who has, y’know……put players in the NBA? Silly idea, I know.
Call me crazy but maybe having a guy who's been in the NBA for 20 years, would have a better grasp of what it takes, what to develop, etc...to get to the NBA, than a coach who has never coached 1 second in the league?
And exactly how are college coaches developing dudes FOR the NBA? Exactly what has Self done than got his kids drafted? Or really any college coach? What did Cal do for MKG, AD, Bledsoe, KAT, Wall, etc...What skill did they develop at UK that didn't alrady have? Now on the flip side, what skills have AD, KAT, etc...acquired since being in the NBA? Tell me, how many 20-ffoters, 3's did KAT or AD take at UK?
Who would you rther play for as a prospective NBA player---A coach who has spent the past 20+ years in Lawrence , Kansas---or a guy who has spent the past 20 years , coaching NBA players?
I'd rather play for the coach that gives me the best chance to win a championship. If I'm a top 10 national recruit and a OAD prospect, I'm expecting to go to the league soon no matter where I play.
Self's had a NPOY candidate in 5 of the last 7 years. Frank Mason won it. He was committed to Towson originally. Devonte Graham almost won it. He was originally committed to Appalachian St. Jalen Wilson almost won it. Agbaji was in the mix the year before. He wasn't ranked in the top 100. Azubuike was a finalist. Did you expect these players to become NPOY candidates? You're claiming that none of them developed any skills that they didn't already have? KU's '22 championship team had three starters that weren't top 100 recruits. Two of them were drafted last year. Is it just pure coincidence that players with limited or no hype keep developing into great players and/or getting drafted?
The idea that a failed NBA coach is automatically a better coach to play for than anyone who hasn't coached in the NBA is pretty ludicrous, dude.
Who said Woodson was better? Not me. BUT his NBA resume is a selling point.
Failed NBA coach? He took over organizations that were in the tank. He won 13 games in his 1st season with the Hawks...Improved every season(26, 30, ,37, 47 and 53). Went to EC semi's last two years. Took over later for the Knicks, went 18-6. Won 54 the following season(conf semi's), then only 37 his final season. If you wanna call that failing, sure....I'd lean more towrd---he took over programs in the shitter, and built them to respectability...But I get it. Woodson was one of the most respected coaches in the NBA; as a HC, and as an assitant.
Woodson has been at IU for 2 full seasons---One POY candidate(TJD). His game improved a ton from his junior to senior year. TJD is projected as high as 24th....JHS had a very good frosh year---Projected as the 15th pick. He has signed 4, 5*'s----JHS, Renau, Ware and Mgbako. And kids are noticing....
“That’s obviously a huge pickup,” McNeeley told Rivals of Mgbako. “He’s going to come in and have an impact right away. If Coach Woodson can get him to the league in one year, that’s encouraging for me. That’s what I’m trying to do.”
“It was Indiana? I knew it,” Harper told Rivals’ Rob Cassidy at a Nike EYBL event in Dallas. “Coach Woodson is going to put him in position to succeed.”
“I love the coaching staff at Indiana. I think I could really see myself fitting in there with them,” Mustaf told Stock Risers. “They had Jalen Hood-Schifino this past year, as a freshman he went in and lead the team and is now going to be a first-rounder. He and I are very similar, so it shows I can come in and work hard to do the same things and get some wins.”
“They use their bigs, I mean, Trayce Jackson-Davis; they just threw the ball into him on every possession,” Queen told Shaw. “I talk with those coaches, Coach (Kenya) Hunter or Coach (Mike) Woodson, almost every day. Our relationship has continued to grow since taking the visit.”
So luckily for IU, not everyone see's it the way you do....
I wasn’t saying that Woodson’s a bad coach, but you can’t really call his NBA head coaching days a success. He was let go by two franchises in a span of four years and never landed another HC gig.
I actually hope Mgbako does well and I hope that Indiana sees a resurgence. But when goons like that guy come crawling out of the woodwork, I have to give ‘em some shit.
Really cannot call it a fail either----5 trips to playoffs in 9 seasons. Took over failing organizations. His role in the NBA, or niche, was better suited as an assitant...He's highly thought of by many. More like, "meh"--or average? Move to CLips as an asst....then back to NY. As I said, seemed a better fit for that of an assit.
I get ya with the "goon"----And don't blame ya.
Something tells me KU is gonna be just fine. I look for the game in Bloomington this year to be FIRE...
I really don't want to see KJ starting at the 4. Unless he's suddenly learned to shoot. I think he should be the backup 5 with sporadic minutes at the 4.
Btw, don't forget Marcus Adams. He might earn a lot of minutes at the 4 too.
7'1 Dickinson
6'7 McCullar small ball 4
6'4 Timberlake
6'3 Morris
6'1 Harris
? I can roll with that
I can see Self starting KJ at the 4 to set a defensive tone but minutes wise only 12-16 minutes of his time is at the 4 and the remainder of his minutes at the 5. Keeping him close to 24-26 mpg. I think the team will be using McCullar and MAJ at the 4 for probably 2/3rds of the game to still be more perimeter oriented. Will probably depend upon matchups.
Still a lot of new guys but having 3 guys who know the system and another 2 guys who have spent 3+ years in college is huge for their early season ceiling. KU’s achilles heel this past season was the bench. The bench will have a lot more talent this season.
You said that last year and I thought you were bouncing to another site, what happened?
So is Dickinson going to be your leading 3 point shooter? Teams that can't shoot don't go far in March and I'm not seeing much shooting in that lineup.
McCullar is a career 29% 3 point shooter.
Also, guards win in March and your 2 starters are one who's never averaged 10 PPG and a SG who was buried on the depth chart in Texas and never got PT.
Enjoy another Big 12 title and a 2nd round loss in the NCAAT.
How can this be?
Sam Lance told me on April 28 that Kevin wasn't coming back
"not happening"
And when I reminded him today, he stopped following me 🤣🤣😭⚰️
KU dudes, 🫠🫠🥳🫠
Needed Kevin back, needed wing taken care of..
Sam Lance told me on April 28 that Kevin wasn't coming back
"not happening"
And when I reminded him today, he stopped following me 🤣🤣😭⚰️
KU dudes, 🫠🫠🥳🫠
Needed Kevin back, needed wing taken care of..
I'm hearing there's real discussion happening between KU and Grant Nelson too. Would be a hell of a cherry on top.
What mediocrity? We're loaded with guards, talent, experience, continuity, shooting and defense son.
I wish we could play KU in the Champions Classic to smack that ass.
So Harris was good enough to lead a national champion two seasons ago, but not now? Interesting. He averaged over 11/game in the 2nd half of last season btw.
Morris is a sophomore who ranked in the top 15 of his class. There's a ton of skill and potential there. He didn't get a lot of minutes as a freshman because he played in a loaded backcourt.
As for shooting, Timberlake is a 42% 3 pt shooter, Harris 41%, and Morris shot a high percentage down the stretch last season. Dickinson shot 42% on a couple attempts per game. Marcus Adams made 13 threes in a game this year and 11 in another. Jackson's been a respectable shooter at the HS level. I don't foresee shooting being a problem, unless they play KJ and McCullar together a lot.
Now let's talk about Duke's shooting. You were 215th in the nation in 3 pt % last year and lost by far your best 3 pt shooter, percentage-wise. The three guys who shoot the bulk of your threes combined for 31% last year. Does this mean you're not going far in March?
Your 2 best players left for the nba. Duke was below average until lively and whiteheads defense came in.
Sorry that
Ryan Young
Flip
Mitchell
Proctor
Roach
aint worrying no one. 4 mid players from a 5 seed and a trash center. Whew
Duke should be solid, but it's funny that he thinks they have no question marks. Shooting is a question mark. Rim protection. Freshmen. Even coaching is a question mark.
I'm not sure you can pencil them in as a juggernaut simply because they brought back several players from a 5 seed and added a few talented freshmen.
Both teams have some questions, but if either deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's the one with the proven coach.
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Was Harris a major contributor on that team 2 years ago or was he a key role player supporting Braun, Agbaji, Wilson and McCormack? It was the latter.
Ok? My point is he's completely unproven. Duke has 3 5 star top 20 recruits coming in this year who're reputed to be good shooters in Jared McCain, Caleb Foster and TJ Power. I'm not exactly touting them and I'm in wait and see mode with them.
Timberlake played at Towson so he has to adjust to the physicality and difference in level of play going to the Big 12. How'd CJ Fredrick, Kellan Grady, Joseph Yesufu and Jacob Grandison work out as transfers? All were great shooters in their last stop but their production all dipped at their new school. You can't just pencil it in for a fact that he"ll be a 40% 3 point shooter.
Harris barely averaged 2 3s a game and he benefited from the gravity that stars like Agbaji, Braun, Wilson and Dick provided the last few years. He shot 59% from the FT line last year...that should tell you all you need to know about him as a shooter. Harris is a pass first defensive PG but he's got major limitations as a scorer.
The rest of the guys is all conjecture. A KJ Adams/McCullar starting lineup is going to have terrible spacing based on what we know about these guys.
The best part of freshmen is that they become sophomores. All 4 of the guys we have returning and are all 5 stars. We're not going to have a non shooter like Lively in the lineup which will help spacing and Duke shot a lot better in the last month of the season once we moved Proctor to PG.
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barttorvik.com
Torvik had Duke as the 2nd best team in the country in the last month of the year behind UConn. Our offense was ranked 10th and we were 90th in 3 point percentage so our freshmen showed great improvement to close out the year along with Roach getting healthy again.
Our 2 best players? LMFAO
Lively was a nonfactor on offense and Whitehead was just a 3 point specialist. Dariq was a mediocre defender so it shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
"4 mid players"? All 4 are 5 star recruits and 2 of them project as lottery picks next year.
If those are mid players what does that make KU's roster that's littered with 4 star recruits instead of 5 star recruits? Who's getting drafted in the 1st round from KU next year?
Our starting lineup will likely be Proctor, Roach, Freshman 5 Star, Mitchell and Flip by the way. Young is just a reserve big who'll spell Flip.
You should worry about your own center getting exposed by every half decent guard in the Big 12 like he was in the Big 10 hahahahaha.
Sorry, but claiming that a player who already led a NC team isn't capable of leading a NC team is a pretty terrible argument. Especially when he's a better version of his past self and will have a better supporting cast. Do you think a player has to score a lot to contribute?
What are their shooting percentages in HS? From what I've heard, only McCain is likely to be an above average shooter next year. He's also the only one likely to start. Which means you'll have zero starters who have proven to be better than mediocre three point shooters.
So we should project substantial improvement for Duke's sophomores, but not sophomore Morris? Interesting. Since the last 5-6 games of Duke's season are so meaningful to you, keep in mind that Morris shot 45% from three over the second half of the season.
Harris shot more threes than FTs last year, yet you think the FT % is more indicative of his shooting ability?
Timberlake's shooting percentage might dip a bit, but he's done fine vs tough competition before. He was 5/7 from three vs Virginia three years ago. 6/10 vs New Mexico. 3/8 vs Wake. Had a nice game vs Pitt, dropped 21 on Clemson, etc.
Having Dickinson underneath is only going to lead to more open threes for Timberlake and everyone else.
I don't expect KJ and McCullar to play together a lot.
That's a handful of games, the most important of which was a complete dud. Nobody's buying that the team that lost to Tennessee was playing like the #2 team in the country.
Btw, Torvik had KU at #1 next year even before McCullar announced. Sure you want to tout that site?
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Your freshmen 5 stars are from a class being touted as the weakest class in 20 years. Mark Mitchell is not special. Roach is really not special. The stars is flip who wouldn't go in the lottery and proctor who averaged 9 ppg. Slow the roll brother
When I said 2 best players, i meant the 2 most impactful. Duke got insanely better with lively's defense and rim protection. Duke got way better with Whitehead's shooting. There were rumblings mid season Duke could even go to last few in the dance. Going on a run got you a 5 seed.
Couple more things, nish.
Grandison’s 3 pt % went up dramatically after transferring from the Patriot League to the Big 10. Grady had the highest 3 pt % of his career at Kentucky. By a pretty decent margin. Frederick went from the Big 10 to the SEC. Not sure why you mentioned him when talking about players making a big jump in competition. Yesufu wasn’t even a starter at Drake.
If anything, those examples helped my point.
Grandison’s 3 pt % went up dramatically after transferring from the Patriot League to the Big 10. Grady had the highest 3 pt % of his career at Kentucky. By a pretty decent margin. Frederick went from the Big 10 to the SEC. Not sure why you mentioned him when talking about players making a big jump in competition. Yesufu wasn’t even a starter at Drake.
If anything, those examples helped my point.
My point is you'll need a lot more from him next year. I'm not sure you're appreciating how stacked KU rosters have been for the past decade. You've had bucket getters for guards and wings in Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, Perry Ellis, Azubuike, McCormack, Agbaji, Braun, Wilson, etc.
He's been a glorified role player at KU so far. I haven't seen any evidence that he's a guy that can go out and create his own shot and get you a bucket with the shot clock winding down on a broken possession.
Yes, I don't think you can be considered a high level starter especially as a starting PG if you're not a somewhat reliable scorer as well.
I'm not sure but I expect TJ Power to be our starting 3. Our Insiders have said he's got a great shooting stroke and is a good defender but I take all that stuff with a grain of salt until I see it on the court.
McCain is likely the best shooter. He won the McDonald's 3 point shooting contest. I don't see him starting though since he's 6"2 and we already have Roach as an undersized SG.
Sure you can expect improvement from him but Duke's sophomores actually got meaningful playing time as freshmen and were starters. They just have a larger sample size to work with than Morris who was a reserve at UT. Maybe he breaks out but Morris is a question mark similar to Elmarko Jackson and Duke's incoming 5 star freshmen.
Besides that UVA game, Timberlake shot less than 30% vs Power 5 competition when you look at what he did vs Wake, Clemson and Ohio State. Also that UVA game was like 3 years ago.
Ok? We don't need them to be key contributors since we've got a stacked group of returnees. Be consistent and don't tout Elmarko Jackson then if this is such a weak class of basketball players.
Whitehead was a deadeye shooter but he never singlehandedly won us a game. Lively was an elite defender but he contributed next to nothing on offense. Our defense was elite but we were sacrificing offense and floor spacing by playing Flip at the 4 instead of the 5.
When a guy's ranked as highly as Whitehead, you expect him to be more than just a standstill 3 point shooter. I expect 1 of our freshmen this year to be more impactful just playing the odds.
Also what do you mean by "special"? They weren't All-Americans but they were good starters.
Who on KU's roster is "special" besides Dickinson? I don't see a top 5 recruit, a guy like Jalen Wilson/Agbaji/Frank Mason returning or some other stud transfer.
Grandison shot 33.7% from 3 at Duke last year after being a 40%+ 3 point shooter at Illinois the last 2 years.
Pete Nance shot 32% from 3 at UNC after shooting 45% from 3 at Northwestern the year before.
These are Power 5 transfers mind you whose shooting didn't transfer and you're touting a guy who played at Towson.
He's a wait and see guy like most of your roster that's the issue. There's no proven reliable shooters at the Power 5 level.
Actually, KU's had few truly stacked rosters in recent years. Take a look at their last several recruiting classes and compare to what Duke and Kentucky bring in yearly. Most would agree that this roster is likely to be better than any recent KU roster, including the championship team.
Harris averaged an efficient 11 ppg in the 2nd half of last season. How is he inferior to, say, Roach?
47% FG, 41% from 3, 6.2 assists, 2.2 steals, 2 TO, 0.4 blocks, 2.5 rebounds
vs
43% FG, 34% from 3, 3.1 assists, 0.9 steals, 2.2 TO, 0 blocks, 2.5 rebounds.
So Roach had half as many assists last year, half as many steals, more turnovers, and was less efficient as a scorer. What is he better at exactly? Taking more shots?
There's no question that Morris has talent. The only question is whether he'll be a star or just a solid contributor. Comparing a guy who dropped 25 in 18 minutes vs Big 12 competition to incoming freshmen seems pretty goofy.
You still haven't given an example of a player who consistently shot a high 3 pt % in a midmajor league and then failed to do it in a power 5 league. Not even sure why you're bringing up Grandison and Nance here. Obviously those situations had nothing to do with facing better competition.
Like I said, the examples you've given actually support my point. Those players improved their shooting percentages after moving to far better leagues. Has it occurred to you that playing on a better team can lead to better shot selection and more open looks?
This is a classic case of looking at stats without truly knowing the players. Go watch highlights from the Duke vs UVA ACC title game and the 1st Round game vs Oral Roberts and you'll see why this comparison is laughable.
Roach can create his own shot off the dribble and has a pullup mid range game. You're pointing out his season long stats but you're unaware that he had a toe injury that didn't fully heal till February.
In the last month of the season Roach shot 49.6% from the field and 37.5% from 3. That's the version you're likely going to get next year.
Roach's assist numbers aren't high since he moved off ball and let Proctor take over the reigns as PG.
He's an undersized SG who's a good scorer at the college level. Duke is not relying on him to be an All-American, just a steady veteran presence.
Meanwhile DaJaun Harris, while being a good passer and defender, has never scored 20 points in a game and KU fans are deluded into thinking he's going to turn into this dynamic PG that can take on more of a scoring load with key departures like Wilson and Dick.
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Wait seriously? I gave you even better examples of guys that were already facing high level competition whose shooting didn't translate when transferring to schools since the situations are different, fit/role on the roster, etc. and your retort is find me guys at shittier schools who didn't drop off when transferring?
That's like someone saying John Doe transferred from UVA to Michigan and struggled academically at UM after being a straight A student at UVA since the adjustment period to the new environment was tough on John...then you respond by saying, "Transfers always work out, show me proof of someone who went to community college and then struggled at Michigan!!"
This is like common sense man. Playing in the CAA is different from playing in the Big 12.
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Recruiting rankings mean nothing once we're talking about upperclassmen. Why don't we take a look at future NBA players instead to gauge talent which is a lot more logical.
Agbaji, Dick, Braun and Doke were all 1st rounders. Svi and Graham were drafted as well in the 2nd round.
KU has never had the talent that a Duke has had but even compared to your usual standards, this is an untalented roster.
KU has experience going for it so your floor is high but your ceiling is pretty capped. Luckily its a really weak year for college basketball so I still see you guys as being top 5.
Says the guy who keeps bringing up Harris's FT% to discredit his 3 pt%, without the context that he attempted almost twice as many threes as FTs. 😆
I'm not denying that Roach is better at creating his shot, but does scoring a couple more buckets while taking several more shots/game make up for having HALF as many assists and steals? No. Harris does more to help his team win.
So pay attention to the last 5 or so games and ignore the rest of his career. Okay then. Harris averaged a higher FG % over the last half season, btw. In a stronger league. It's interesting that you put so much stock in what Duke players accomplished in a handful of games while dismissing KU trends over longer periods of time.
His assist average was almost identical to the year before. He actually raised his career average this year.
You think KU fans are expecting Harris to take on more of a scoring load to make up for the loss of Wilson/Dick? 🤣
Remember that guy who averaged 19 ppg at Michigan, and all the other dudes they added? No one's expecting Harris to be anything but what he was last year.
I can tell you right now that if Roach were on KU's roster, Self wouldn't even consider starting him over Harris. Self loves Harris and has basically stated that he's going to be the starting PG as long as he's here. Guess you know more about b-ball than Self?
You were claiming that shooting typically doesn't carry over from the midmajor level to high major. Then you mentioned multiple players who actually increased their shooting percentage considerably after moving to the big leagues. That's a backfire, no matter how you slice it.
Naturally, you want to focus on the cons rather than the pros. Timberlake won't be in the CAA anymore, but he also won't draw nearly as much attention from defenses. What do you think's going to happen when Dickinson is double teamed? Timberlake's going to be standing wide open behind the arc.
