Ware & Clarke

Discussion in 'College Basketball Board' started by JC for 3, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    11,752
    Likes Received:
    10,073
    They also play more games now than were played in the past. '76 Indiana was 32-0. During UCLA's run they had four 30-0 seasons. Can't win 39 or 40 if you don't play that many.
     
  2. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341

    Tell that to Calipari.

    I understand your point. Since they've gone to 40 games....
     
    Bert Higginbotha and Kevin Bryan like this.
  3. Random UK Fan

    Random UK Fan Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Which is what's so strange, because it worked out so well (almost) for all those involved. Never heard one player complain. They just went out and produced then got drafted. Took a Wisconcin team to play a near perfect game to knock us out (it happens), but couldn't have been happier for the guys as individuals.
     
    Big_Blue79 and Bert Higginbotha like this.
  4. schoonerwest

    schoonerwest Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    22,107
    Likes Received:
    13,436
    Location:
    Midland, TX
    I always found it odd that in 1998 KU finished 35-4 with a 2nd round loss. If they had made the title game they would’ve played 43 games that year. I don’t think they could’ve topped 40 possible games in any other season.
     
  5. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    11,752
    Likes Received:
    10,073
    That is pretty crazy. Guessing they played multiple in-season tournaments. The team that won that year (Kentucky) also finished with a 35-4 record. Winking It seems like over the past 5-6 years at least the most games a team could possibly play is 40 (winning conference and NCAA tourney). I would guess there is a maximum number of games that can be scheduled per NCAA regulations.
     
  6. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    It’s all about expectations with what you have. In 2013 if we had won 38 games and got bounced in the tourney then yes it would have been a very bittersweet season. Helluva season but since I felt we were the best team in the nation that year coming in, I would have been disappointed with anything less than a title. In 2014 I don’t know how many games we won, but I felt like at the end of the year we were playing better than anyone so yea I was disappointed in the season as a whole. Sure there were bright spots, there are every season, but there are also expectations. If we don’t make at least the elite 8 next year I will be disappointed, barring injuries or some other factor that could derail our roster.

    I’ll go back to the part of my post everyone seems to dodge: would u not trade 38-1 final four for 37-3 with 3 regular season losses if it ended in a title. 37 wins wouldn’t have made history, but if it would have meant one more title, you’d trade it in a heartbeat. Or even 30-10 with a title > 38-1 without the title. In fact theres really nothing historic about 38-1 with no title. 30-0 iu(title) 30-0 wooden (title) > 38-1 final four. You simply have more games to play currently To make more money from tickets to tv revenue etc.

    I’ll ask it like this. Who had a better 2015 season, UK with its record tying win total, or duke with their national title rings?

    And of course the players never complained once, they were rolling through everyone and the team was getting espn promos reminiscent of the ones Zion got last year.

    And yea despite the great season I believe UK wins it all that year if cal hadn’t latched onto the plattoon system. I mean literally anytime any player needed a substitute, all the players on the floor got substituted. So every time a substitution was made cal took KAT off the floor for Marcus Lee, Marcus transferred and dropped off the map Lee vs the number 1 pick, just to keep the plattoon system in order.

    But like I said everything might have played out the same way if he hadn’t used the plattoon, we will never know, but IMO the arrogance and ego of cal with the plattoon system cost UK a banner. You might not see it that way, everyone has their own opinion.

    And no one was talking about 2012. But since u brought it up, it was probably the best team I’ve ever seen in my lifetime, and AD was definitely the most dominant player I’ve ever seen in college in my lifetime. Even when his stats weren’t great the way he altered and blocked shots at the defensive end alone was so dominating in itself, not to mention on the offensive end where he had the ability to finish an alley oop or outback dunk from literally anywhere was amazing.
     
    46 Villian07, Sep 15, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
  7. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    20,371
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    Smiths Grove, Kentucky
    I did have classes with basketball and football players. One of my friends played football at UK and is a Vet. Dumb folks and people who avoid going to class don't do that.
     
  8. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    20,371
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    Smiths Grove, Kentucky
    I sure wanted that 40-0 and the ring. Had that happened I probably would not be posting on the board as I would have been too arrogant to have been tolerated, so they would have banned old Bert! :(
     
    48 Bert Higginbotha, Sep 15, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
    Big_Blue79 and Random UK Fan like this.
  9. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    20,371
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    Smiths Grove, Kentucky
    The reason UK has those two 38 win season is because of the expanded number of games. IU was the last undefeated back before the NCAA expanded all the tourneys et.al.

    Bob Knight's '76 team was damned special. If UK had got to a title and 40-0 it would not have been better than IU.
     
    Random UK Fan likes this.
  10. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    20,371
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    Smiths Grove, Kentucky
    Why did the NCAA allow that?
     
  11. Random UK Fan

    Random UK Fan Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    I won't dodge it. After time has had time to level emotions, I hear more people talking about that UK team than I do the team that won it all. That UK team is still used as a bar as possibly the best team ever assembled. The ring would have been nice too, but it somehow pales in comparison to almost being the most recent team to go undefeated. Not many UK fans - and who knows how many indifferent fans - were concerned about that Duke team. They were good, but not special. The championship was ours, we just didn't arrive. IN fact I don;t even think the tourney committee had us face each other the championship game. It was going to be the semifinal. We all expected to use Duke that year to roll into the championship, but it didn't work out that way. No disrespect to that Duke team, but I'm not 100% sure who their roster was. I'm pretty sure Okafor was on it, but not certain.

    You just don't hear much about that particular Duke team or the individuals that it was made from anymore. But KAT is a household Allstar, Booker had his moment when he dropped 70 on some NBA opponent, Willie Cauley-Stein's name was just memorable. It could just be me, but when I think of the great teams; UNLV, IU, The Fab 5, etc. I'm not necessarily able to tell you who wears the ring from that year.

    My view is certainly debatable, but I probably won't. It's how I've always seen it. It's how I always will. It just is what it is.
     
    51 Random UK Fan, Sep 15, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
  12. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    Haha you wouldnt have been the only one. Still Luv ya kamisky and dekker.

    That’s why along with lurker ur one of my fave UK posters, u can own the arrogance and not give a damn. Some others have a persecution complex.
     
    52 Villian07, Sep 15, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    Bert Higginbotha likes this.
  13. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    They don’t re-seed the final four so the soonest UK could have possibly played duke was the championship as soon as the brackets were released. You had Wisconsin in the semi final obv. I think if anything they would have preferred it like it was to set up duke and UK for the championship.

    But I do feel u on the Fab 5 thing, and UNLV (did they ever win one with LJ and augmund and Greg Anthony) those were special teams for sure mainly bc they were so much fun to watch. But you gotta understand if some UK fans feel like that was the best roster ever assembled, which is very hard to argue against unless you wanna go back to some of woodens team, then rival fans have a leg to stand on in saying despite their historic season, they still ultimately underachieved when it counted the most.

    And I’m not asking who u see from duke 2015 in the nba, or who has more nba all stars or house hold names. Im asking would u trade uks 38-1 season where u lost in the FF for Dukes season (no clue on their record) That ended cutting down the nets, if both teams had their same roster they did in 2015. I just can’t hardly believe tying a season win record (that uk already owns) could possibly better than hanging another championship banner regardless of how many wins you ended up with.

    But I’m also not a fan of the team whose greatest night in program history was having five first round draft picks despite not making the FF with them ;)
     
  14. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,550
    Likes Received:
    2,603
    Couple things:

    1) The Platoon thing stopped once Poythress blew out his ACL, UK was not platooning much after that

    2) the reason both Booker and Ulis got benched in that FF loss to Wisconsin was simple, neither player could stop their man from scoring. Wisconsin kept switching until Decker got isolated on either of them, then it was an easy two points for Wisconsin. The Harrison twins did a much better job of defending.

    The best team doesn't always win and that season is the perfect example of that. But damn, it still stings.
     
    Big_Blue79 and Bert Higginbotha like this.
  15. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,550
    Likes Received:
    2,603
    Ya gotta tell me, how did the platoon cost UK the title?

    Again, UK stopped platooning after the Poythress ACL tear. Cal had a set rotation by tournament time. Marcus Lee was not getting the same minutes as Karl Townes.

    So how did the platoon system from earlier in the year, cause UK to lose that Wisconsin game?

    Here's a link to the box score. Check the minutes. UK had 5 guys that played 27 minutes or more, then there was Booker with 19 and it went down from there.
    https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2015-04-04-kentucky.html

    Uk lost, because Wisconsin was freaking good (a 1 seed), it was a one game scenario where anything can happen (just ask UVA fans) and UK made a couple of key mistakes at the end of the game that cost them a 6 point lead and ultimately, the game. The platoon system, from December, had nothing to do with losing that one game.
     
    Big_Blue79 likes this.
  16. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    20,371
    Likes Received:
    5,149
    Location:
    Smiths Grove, Kentucky
    In 1998 Kentucky won the title when Duke and North Carolina were better teams. Kentucky got Duke in the regional final in an incredible come from behind game and Utah outlasted UNC in the final four. Every one expected a Duke versus UNC final.
     
    Big_Blue79 and Random UK Fan like this.
  17. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292

    Y’all are right, i thought poythress has gotten hurt the year after the platoon year. So yea I was dead wrong about that.

    Also didn’t take into account that booker was a defensive liability, I didn’t even realize that bc y’all played in so few close games it usually wasn’t much of a factor. I know ullis was under sized and could be exploited by bigger guards but I didn’t realize booker was also a huge defensive liability.

    And I wasn’t saying Marcus Lee played more minutes that KAT I was just saying that until poythress got hurt and y’all were platooning that every time y’all made a substitution lee came in for KAT. When if y’all had a traditional rotation you could have had more time with booker and kat on the court together, or any other multiple combinations instead of always subbing 5 for 5 every time.

    But now that I was dead wrong about Poythress and y’all not even platooning in the tourney that’s all pretty moot.

    And I will definitely agree Wisconsin was a helluva team that year and it’s a damn shame they didn’t beat duke to win it all, bc that team especially kamisky was so much fun (not to watch) justnpersonality wise. And I’m no Wisconsin fan by any means but the only time I ever root for duke is when they play UK the same way that the only time I ever root for unc is if they are playing duke or uk. And I could keep going down the list next is kansas then iu etc.

    I didn’t watch as much of that tourney as I usually do, besides our games, bc I had pretty much written it off that UK had it in the bag and I was gonna have hear about it from friends, neighbors, church congregation until the day that I died lol.
     
  18. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    so y’all have changed my stance on the platoon costing uk the title with the facts y’all provided above. I’ll admit I was dead wrong.

    Who am I missing when the platoon was in effect I was trying to put it in a different post but got stuck on 9 guys.

    Pg- Harrison ullis
    Sg- Harrison booker
    Sf - poythress ?????( wiltjer maybe)
    Pf- Kat lee
    C- dakari wcs

    I can’t remember the sf on the second platoon
     
    Bert Higginbotha likes this.
  19. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    I'm surprised you don't know something about UK. You come off like an expert on UK.
     
    RipThru likes this.
  20. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    Yea that UNC team was unreal with talent. Vince Carter and Antwan Jamison, i forgot who ran the point but he was a stud too. Probably the most talented UNC ever besides Jordan and Worthy.
     
    Bert Higginbotha likes this.
  21. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    I live in western UK where I’d say 90% of the population is UK fans so I hear them talking about UK 24/7. And also that wasn’t five months ago it was damn near 5 years, plus I’ve killed a lot more brain cells in my lifetime than most I’d have to imagine.
     
    Bert Higginbotha likes this.
  22. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    And every other “expert” opinion or fact I know about uk came from message boards.
     
    62 Villian07, Sep 16, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  23. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    I’ve said numerous times in multiple threads that I have no sources or connections to anybody, not even the team I root for. I made a mistake and I was wrong, I admit that. Do y’all want me to edit my posts or leave them so y’all can see the mistake I made.

    But I can still argue the it the other way that when you were using the platoon and the same 5 guys got used to playing with each other and the same for the other platoon, so when poythress got hurt maybe the chemistry got thrown off a bit bc y’all had to play “normal” rotations y’all hadn’t played all year, where if y’all had used a traditional rotation all year, even going 10 deep, there would have been More opportunities for guys to gain confidence and experience with guys from the other platoon, but after being so dead wrong on the other stance I took, I’m not gonna try to move the goalposts and double down on my stance.

    And I’m fairly certain I said multiple times that hat was just my opinion and it might have all played out the same way regardless if UK never platooned once that season.
     
  24. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    We're big boys. We can take snide remarks.
     
    Bert Higginbotha likes this.
  25. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    3,550
    Likes Received:
    2,603
    You’re also wrong on the Marcus Lee for Karl Townes thing. Lee didn’t spell Townes, Dakari Johnson and/or Willie Cauley Stein did.

    Yeah, Booker and Ulis got exposed a bit in the Notre Dame game in the E8, but Wisconsin really highlighted their weaknesses in that FF game.

    On top of that, Booker hit a wall before the tournament, where he couldn't buy a made Jumper. So he couldn't defend and struggled on offense, so he had to come out of that game.

    It was a great game that Wisconsin won and it had nothing to do with the platoon that Calipari ran at the beginning of the year.
     
  26. mebeblue2

    mebeblue2 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,903
    Likes Received:
    3,301
    Trey Lyles
     
  27. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    So dakari or wcs played the four on one platoon? And Kat played pf alongside lee at C on the starting platoon? That makes me wonder why did he have lee starting over dakari or wcs. But yalls proven me wrong enough in this thread to make me swerve back over in my lane lol.

    And yea I’ve backpeddled off that stance about the platoon costing up the title when I learned the poythres
    Injury was that year, I thought it was the year after. Guess it was just regular coaching instead of usual coaching (cue the mad max gif above) obvious sarcasm. Wisconsin was a damn good team and played a helluva game.
     
  28. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    11,752
    Likes Received:
    10,073
    WCS, Towns, Poythress/Lyles, and the Harrison twins were the starters.
     
  29. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    Poythress would have been great on Dekker. Same as Bogans on Wade.
     
    Big_Blue79 and Bert Higginbotha like this.
  30. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    Well said, ppl forget about Booker's slump. They just look at his NBA numbers and form an opinion in retrospect.
     
    kyjeff1 likes this.
  31. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    So on the second platoon WCS played the 4 and lee played the 5?
     
  32. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    Do you mind if I ask how old you are?
     
  33. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    Old enough I should remember lol. I’m just trying to remember how it worked. One poster said kat was spelled by either dakari or wcs on the second platoon, but another poster said dakari started C alongside KAT (which I do remember to be true) so I’m trying to put it together. The only other option is that wcs played the 4 and Marcus Lee played the 5 on the second platoon.

    Hell I forgot about trey lyles completely so long term memory is not my strong suit.
     
    lurkeraspect84 likes this.
  34. Big_Blue79

    Big_Blue79 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    5,793
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    Exactly this. Hayes and Dekker killed us because we didn't have a SF defender. On an otherwise stacked roster, we had a huge hole at SF once Poy went down. Duke had Winslow.
     
    lurkeraspect84 likes this.
  35. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    11,752
    Likes Received:
    10,073
    I just told you WCS was a starter. Laughing
     
    lurkeraspect84 likes this.
  36. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    i know, I’m slowly waiting for someone to call out whoever said that kat was spelled by dakari/wcs and not Lee, so I can get something right on this thread.

    And now the only option for that to be true is dakari played the 4 and lee the 5. I just cant believe dakari’s big, slow, ass played anything but the 5, but I’ve been wrong before, see above.
     
  37. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. No offense. It probably says more about me.
     
  38. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    292
    Meh I’ve talked in circles and been proven wrong enough to confuse Albert Einstein. Think it’s time for this thread to RIP, get out while I’m behind lol.
     
  39. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    17,086
    Likes Received:
    13,341
    You really did seem to like a UK recruiting thread for some reason.
     
  40. JC for 3

    JC for 3 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    1,487
    Location:
    Ft. Thomas, KY
    Yeah...in starting this thread, I never thought it would go into a full breakdown in every way under the sun of the 38-1 UK team.
     

Share This Page