Tell me how Indiana basketball plays out if Bobby Knight isnt fired

[Kevin Bryan]

Change the argument? Wait, what? SO we only consider the history of elite, prestigious programs , when evaluating the accomplishments of a coach? Sooooo...does that mean what Cal did at Umass and Memphis isn't /wasn't nothing special? I mean every time someone quesstions his coaching ability---some of you point out ---"Look what he done at UMass/Memphis". I mean unless of course you consider those two school, "most prestigious"? Anyways...Knight won 21 games a year for over 6 years; NOT 7. He retired with TT 12-7 in year 7. Knight had the same amount of20 win seasons(5) in his 6 years, then the entire program had combined since 1970.

BCG was a flash in the pan. Not a bad coach. Nothing special though. Caught some lightening in a bottle, and ran with it. That happens sometimes; See Kevin Ollie.

Anyways...Agree to disagree. Have a good nbight, Kevin.

He retired more than halfway through year 7 at 12-8, that team wasn't going dancing and they weren't winning 20+ games. If they were worth a damn Knight wouldn't have bailed on them mid-season. Billy averaged 20 wins a year too, in 5 years between UTEP/A&M and that's including his first year at UTEP being 6-24. That all adds up to one thing: Billy kicking Bobby's ass in a steel cage match.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Indiana basketball had the same problem that Minnesota hockey has and Texas football has.

They are a celebration of their state's high school system.

You couldn't recruit outside of Texas when you coached in Austin.

This tribalism has pretty much caused all the issues with each program.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

Indiana basketball had the same problem that Minnesota hockey has and Texas football has.

They are a celebration of their state's high school system.

You couldn't recruit outside of Texas when you coached in Austin.

This tribalism has pretty much caused all the issues with each program.

UT shouldn't have to recruit outside of Texas. The entire state is a gold mine of talent.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

UT shouldn't have to recruit outside of Texas. The entire state is a gold mine of talent.

In certain positions most years. Some years you will not have elite talent at key positions so you have to cherry pick out of state.
For the longest time this was frown on.

To take the conversation back to IU.
For the most part Bobby Knight could rely on instate talent.
Most of his great teams in the 70's and 80's were built on Indiana players.

 

[jace46555]

UT shouldn't have to recruit outside of Texas. The entire state is a gold mine of talent.

In certain positions most years. Some years you will not have elite talent at key positions so you have to cherry pick out of state.
For the longest time this was frown on.

To take the conversation back to IU.
For the most part Bobby Knight could rely on instate talent.
Most of his great teams in the 70's and 80's were built on Indiana players.

Oh trust me....you're spot on here! Unfortunately, I think Crean would still be at IU if he had only focused on the state more.

Dont get me wrong, if we're talking about 2 similar players and everything being equal...I'd rather prioritize the instate player. However, as long as ita a good kid, if there's more talent outside of the state...that's where we should prioritize! However, a large portion of the fans would rather get a less talented player because he's from Indiana.

I understand why someone who might be more of a casual fan might think this. There's not a single place in this world who holds high school basketball in higher regards than the state of Indiana. But, I scratch my head when I hear people who I know has a firm grasp on understanding the game feel this way.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Oh trust me....you're spot on here! Unfortunately, I think Crean would still be at IU if he had only focused on the state more.

Dont get me wrong, if we're talking about 2 similar players and everything being equal...I'd rather prioritize the instate player. However, as long as ita a good kid, if there's more talent outside of the state...that's where we should prioritize! However, a large portion of the fans would rather get a less talented player because he's from Indiana.

I understand why someone who might be more of a casual fan might think this. There's not a single place in this world who holds high school basketball in higher regards than the state of Indiana. But, I scratch my head when I hear people who I know has a firm grasp on understanding the game feel this way.

IU is a celebration of Indiana high school basketball and never should be anything different
Very much like Texas and football.

To get back to the topic I think Bobby Knight understood this. Mike Davis and others did not so much.
If Knight would have stayed then the transitional period between coaches would have been seemless

 

[schoonerwest]

Emmett was really, really good.

He’s one of those guys that probably should have been in the NBA for longer than he actually was. He could’ve easily been a solid bench scorer over his career and more productive than most guys on the bench. Guess scouts just figured his ceiling didn’t justify him being there ahead of guys with better talent but less skill. Looks like he’s still playing professionally at age 36. Also looks like he tore up the international leagues throughout his time there.

 

[TechFan88]

What did he do at Texas Tech? Certainly nothing impressive.

What they did (or didn't do) before he got there is irrelevant. The fact remains that he produced mediocre results at TTU.

Mediocre as compared to what? 2000-1 TTU 9-19 (3-13 in conference) under James Dickey. Knight was hired in 2001. TTU 23-9 (10-6 in conference) and into the first round of the NCAA tournament. In his first 4 seasons we went to the NCAA Tournament 3 times and the NIT once. First Round 2002, NIT Semifinals 2003, Second round 2004, and Sweet Sixteen in 2005. Prior to that Tech did not have a winning record or NCAA appearance since 1996.

You can't name players off those Tech teams but he could go beat KU with them.

I'm not sure about any of his players at TT, so I can't hp you there. But, I find it very hard to believe he thought a player at TT was one of the best players he's had. The only way I could see him saying it was to take a dig at IU because he is a vindictive bastard.

Actually, now that I think about it, that's exactly something he would have said during the first few years after iu. He took great pleasure anytime he could take a shot at IU and his accomplishments at iu back then.

He loved Ronald Ross. Who was a walk-on PG from Hobbs, NM.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

Mediocre as compared to what? 2000-1 TTU 9-19 (3-13 in conference) under James Dickey. Knight was hired in 2001. TTU 23-9 (10-6 in conference) and into the first round of the NCAA tournament. In his first 4 seasons we went to the NCAA Tournament 3 times and the NIT once. First Round 2002, NIT Semifinals 2003, Second round 2004, and Sweet Sixteen in 2005. Prior to that Tech did not have a winning record or NCAA appearance since 1996.

You can't name players off those Tech teams but he could go beat KU with them.



He loved Ronald Ross. Who was a walk-on PG from Hobbs, NM.

All that has already been discussed. Mediocre is mediocre. Like I said, Gillispie did the same things at UTEP and A&M, to an even greater extent. And once a coach has been at a program long enough to recruit his own players there are no excuses for mediocrity. They were 15-17 in Knight's 5th season.

 

[TechFan88]

All that has already been discussed. Mediocre is mediocre. Like I said, Gillispie did the same things at UTEP and A&M, to an even greater extent.

He did that with guys that were not highly recruited. Imagine if he actually got McDonald All American recruits. Billy Clyde did it with four straight Top 25 recruiting classes and padded schedules in which they didn't leave their arena.

Knight and his players would beat Bill Self and his All American recruits. If the roles were reversed he would never lose to Bill Self. Now he is a deeply flawed human being with anger management issues but he was a great coach.

 

[pig1960]

Knight was finished a few years before he was fired
his antics allowed IU to move on

IU has had a very hard time getting a good honest coach
i think they have found that in Miller

You heard of his brother? Honesty isn’t a family tradition.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

He did that with guys that were not highly recruited. Imagine if he actually got McDonald All American recruits. Billy Clyde did it with four straight Top 25 recruiting classes and padded schedules in which they didn't leave their arena.

Knight and his players would beat Bill Self and his All American recruits. If the roles were reversed he would never lose to Bill Self. Now he is a deeply flawed human being with anger management issues but he was a great coach.

Recruiting is a huge part of coaching. That's on Knight. I'm guessing by that point he was just burned out and didn't care, hence walking away mid-season.

 

[jace46555]

He did that with guys that were not highly recruited. Imagine if he actually got McDonald All American recruits. Billy Clyde did it with four straight Top 25 recruiting classes and padded schedules in which they didn't leave their arena.

Knight and his players would beat Bill Self and his All American recruits. If the roles were reversed he would never lose to Bill Self. Now he is a deeply flawed human being with anger management issues but he was a great coach.

Recruiting is a huge part of coaching. That's on Knight. I'm guessing by that point he was just burned out and didn't care, hence walking away mid-season.

From roughly 1992 until the day he retired, he spent most offseasons fishing in Montana instead of sitting in a hot gym watching recruits. Besides the last couple of years at IU, he had basically completely checked out on the recruitment front.

Theres a great story that I believe I heard from Dan Dakich about when he was an assistant coach for him at IU. He had Raef Lafrentz on campus and he wanted to go to IU. The parents had heard some of the negatives about Knight and wanted to meet him before they allowed their son to commit. When Dan went to tell Knight that he's ready to sign, but he needed Knight to show up and basically shake hands....Knight told him he's planning on going fishing and to figure it out. (Full disclosure, its been awhile since I heard this story, so some of the details I might have gotten mixed up. But the point remains....Knight had checked out)

 

[superhusker33]

From roughly 1992 until the day he retired, he spent most offseasons fishing in Montana instead of sitting in a hot gym watching recruits. Besides the last couple of years at IU, he had basically completely checked out on the recruitment front.

Theres a great story that I believe I heard from Dan Dakich about when he was an assistant coach for him at IU. He had Raef Lafrentz on campus and he wanted to go to IU. The parents had heard some of the negatives about Knight and wanted to meet him before they allowed their son to commit. When Dan went to tell Knight that he's ready to sign, but he needed Knight to show up and basically shake hands....Knight told him he's planning on going fishing and to figure it out. (Full disclosure, its been awhile since I heard this story, so some of the details I might have gotten mixed up. But the point remains....Knight had checked out)

My point. He was great, no doubt, but he was going to hold your program back, at the same time. Tough call. 3 time NC, or progress.

 

[VaultHunter]

What they did (or didn't do) before he got there is irrelevant. The fact remains that he produced mediocre results at TTU.

Good. Now we can finally all agree that what Adolph Rupp did was nothing special and Kentucky "Blueblood" status was built on a couple decent years under Pitino.

Which makes it false.

 

[blue_in_chicago]

Knight was finished a few years before he was fired
his antics allowed IU to move on

IU has had a very hard time getting a good honest coach
i think they have found that in Miller

Honest?