ADVERTISEMENT

Socialism doesn't work...

Status
Not open for further replies.
The same people calling socialism, communism...are the same people who are saying, "get your government hands off my medicaid"!

:D
Yeah, it's funny how many staunch republicans in my area hate socialist programs until they need it. But every other person is just abusing the programs, so they should get rid of it.

It's just like the idiots that voted for Trump and have had their loved ones deported because they thought they would be the exception.

Slug+for+salt_b3613c_6167777.jpg
 
Last edited:
Or will people who refuse to use it not gonna last so long?
Hard to say whether any failures of other economic systems we've witnessed are the inevitable result of a well-meaning but unrealistic philosophy or something sabotaged by a country that has more power, not necessarily an ethically superior system.

Yea nothing about it outside of Health Care maybe , has appeal to those with those traits listed.
I'm not sure even health care qualifies. There are plenty of people griping about having to pay for others and how they should be able to freeball it themselves.

But even if it does qualify, that's pretty huge. It's kind of like saying other than the 4th quarter and overtime, the Falcons dominated the Patriots in Super Bowl LI.
 
Yes, of course, but the % should stay that way, as well.
Why does the percent matter when the overwhelming dollars collected come from the top earners? I believe it surpasses the 80/20 rule, but could be remembering incorrectly about that.
 
Agreed. I pay $1200 month for BCBS for 3 of us. 6k deduct. Thats insane. I haven't filed a BCBS for 15 yrs after being off my parents insurance. I take care of myself. The amount Ive put in the healthcare system and the benefits I've received are sh*t. Think If i just had a health savings plan with that quarter million sitting in it. Yet I support a system for many people who aren't health conscious. Yet they pay lower rates and have better benefits than I do. What it amounts to is me paying 10x more for a broken arm. The main reason socialism fails is b/c their is too much dead weight---and I'm not talking about the people who are actually sick and deserving. Im talking about the plethora of lazy, unhealthy, freeloaders who create their own problems and pass the buck.

I don't think it should be legally mandated to have health insurance (or at least a specific set of "benefits"), but the blame for absurd premiums and deductibles doesn't fall on Obamacare or the poor. That's insensitive bullshit.

The blame falls on the hospitals. They've become predatory monopolies. In an age where an aspirin in the ER costs 30 bucks and a one-week stint in ICU can cost a quarter million, of course deductibles and premiums are going to be high.
 
You can’t make blanket statements about a giant social and economic construct working or not working very easily.

Obviously some things work best when you apply a capitalist model to them.

Some work best when you apply a socialist model to them.

The issue is... which work best as which?

Personally I think that essential services whose monetary value is near impossible to figure (military, health care, education) likely work best without profit being the lead factor, and services for whom profit is (relatively) easy to evaluate likely work best under a capitalist model.
 
Why does the percent matter when the overwhelming dollars collected come from the top earners? I believe it surpasses the 80/20 rule, but could be remembering incorrectly about that.

If every single person was taxed at the same percentage rate, the rich would still pay the lion's share of taxes in terms of dollars. That doesn't mean they shouldn't pay more.

A thousand dollars means a lot more to a poor family than 10 million dollars means to Jeff Bezos.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ExitFlagger
I don't think it should be legally mandated to have health insurance (or at least a specific set of "benefits"), but the blame for absurd premiums and deductibles doesn't fall on Obamacare or the poor. That's insensitive bullshit.

The blame falls on the hospitals. They've become predatory monopolies. In an age where an aspirin in the ER costs 30 bucks and a one-week stint in ICU can cost a quarter million, of course deductibles and premiums are going to be high.
I agree on hospitals being huge abusers...and they hide behind non profit loopholes and gobbling up areas under one entity. Also damning to the system is the crushing blows of litigation---many absurd lawsuits. Its the same model as our higher education system. College shouldn't cost what it does. Its absurd. Half the classes for general requirements are archaic in todays world. The ACA was well intentioned but it made it worse for people that were actually holding the system up---which in itself is ridiculous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ExitFlagger
SO.... who decides it?
Ultimately, we all do based on who we elect.

The owner does not deserve to be taxed to death bc his hard work created something out of nothing. He created a market by innovation and quality product...
Your boss sounds like a swell guy. However, his success also included an arbitrary factor: what would work. There are plenty of innovations that don't catch on through no fault of the inventor. Maybe a brilliant product is undermined by an industry that doesn't want competition. Maybe consumers aren't ready for it. Maybe the same day of your product launch for the Automatic Dehydrated Olive Laser Fork -- which is going to completely revolutionize tapas menus everywhere -- Adolf Hitler comes to power. None of that has anything to do with hard work or merit. A lot of it is arbitrary.

And you act like the poor working harder leads to them being poorer
No, it's more that being poor requires them to work harder, yet it is still rare for any of them to escape poverty.

...its not a contest and its not a right.
The problem w/ capitalism is that it is most definitely a contest. Wealth is relative to others -- technically our poor are "richer" than the average citizen in a lot of developing nations, but that is a moot point when we're talking about the challenges they face. In order for someone to get ahead, others can't.
And while being rich isn't a right, if we're defining that as a "pursuit of happiness," having a fair shot at it is a right. And if it isn't a right, then having a point at which the govt taxes you more heavily isn't a violation.

People will always have more whatever level you are at-and if you haven't done something to earn that level---its not up to anyone to give it to you.
That we will never achieve perfect equality (which is a strawman, really, as no one really thinks that's a feasible goal) is not an excuse not to address inequity.

I think you're contradicting yourself. Those who are born rich didn't do anything to get to that level. It requires a lot less work to get there for someone close than for someone born into abject poverty. You keep representing that as merit, but it isn't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anon_0astpxev9h4gk
Ultimately, we all do based on who we elect.


Your boss sounds like a swell guy. However, his success also included an arbitrary factor: what would work. There are plenty of innovations that don't catch on through no fault of the inventor. Maybe a brilliant product is undermined by an industry that doesn't want competition. Maybe consumers aren't ready for it. Maybe the same day of your product launch for the Automatic Dehydrated Olive Laser Fork -- which is going to completely revolutionize tapas menus everywhere -- Adolf Hitler comes to power. None of that has anything to do with hard work or merit. A lot of it is arbitrary.


No, it's more that being poor requires them to work harder, yet it is still rare for any of them to escape poverty.


The problem w/ capitalism is that it is most definitely a contest. Wealth is relative to others -- technically our poor are "richer" than the average citizen in a lot of developing nations, but that is a moot point when we're talking about the challenges they face. In order for someone to get ahead, others can't.
And while being rich isn't a right, if we're defining that as a "pursuit of happiness," having a fair shot at it is a right. And if it isn't a right, then having a point at which the govt taxes you more heavily isn't a violation.


That we will never achieve perfect equality (which is a strawman, really, as no one really thinks that's a feasible goal) is not an excuse not to address inequity.

I think you're contradicting yourself. Those who are born rich didn't do anything to get to that level. It requires a lot less work to get there for someone close than for someone born into abject poverty. You keep representing that as merit, but it isn't.
By what measure or statistic are you referencing that it requires less work for someone born into wealth...not only to protect and not squander it, but also build on that success? You act like there is just a plethora of inheritance millionaires that sit on their ass and do nothing---ive never met one personally, thats why I ask.
 
Capitalism being a contest isn’t a problem, it’s a solution. I feel the same way about capitalism and the company I work for that I did about my team playing sports. I love competition. I embrace it. Yes, some can’t or won’t compete. Some people need help. Sure. We can give them help.

But the goal of my company is to solve a problem and make not only our lives better but other people’s lives better by solving the problem. And the goal is to dominate the market in the process. Because it makes our lives better. I feel no guilt in wanting to dominate a market. It makes me excited.

There are winners and losers in capitalism. Nature is a good model to compare against. You could see a lion eat a wildebeest and have great empathy for the wildebeest, asking why nature is so cruel. But you could also say it’s a beautiful thing that the lion will live another day while contributing to the evolution of the wildebeest by challenging it’s physical adaptations.

Obviously, it’s not humane to simply let people die.. and we should have empathy for the poor. However, failing in a capitalistic system (or anything in life) is your greatest opportunity to refine behavior and strategy. I don’t see failure as a bad thing.

I have pretty much no empathy, however, for ideologies that embrace excuses / hopelessness over empowerment. For example, If I’m black, I’d refuse any ideology telling me my options are limited because of skin color. If I’m gay, I’m not walking around making excuses for not succeeding. Whether there is an element of truth historically to these things can be acknowledged, but that’s just more motivation to overcome those challenges. Benjamin Franklin summed it up well, and while I’m not a religious person, the quote really isn’t about religion: God helps those who help themselves. It might sound unfortunate, but it’s also, I believe, the best path for getting any type of help. /rant
 
Capitalism being a contest isn’t a problem, it’s a solution. I feel the same way about capitalism and the company I work for that I did about my team playing sports. I love competition. I embrace it. Yes, some can’t or won’t compete. Some people need help. Sure. We can give them help.

But the goal of my company is to solve a problem and make not only our lives better but other people’s lives better by solving the problem. And the goal is to dominate the market in the process. Because it makes our lives better. I feel no guilt in wanting to dominate a market. It makes me excited.

There are winners and losers in capitalism. Nature is a good model to compare against. You could see a lion eat a wildebeest and have great empathy for the wildebeest, asking why nature is so cruel. But you could also say it’s a beautiful thing that the lion will live another day while contributing to the evolution of the wildebeest by challenging it’s physical adaptations.

Obviously, it’s not humane to simply let people die.. and we should have empathy for the poor. However, failing in a capitalistic system (or anything in life) is your greatest opportunity to refine behavior and strategy. I don’t see failure as a bad thing.

I have pretty much no empathy, however, for ideologies that embrace excuses / hopelessness over empowerment. For example, If I’m black, I’d refuse any ideology telling me my options are limited because of skin color. If I’m gay, I’m not walking around making excuses for not succeeding. Whether there is an element of truth historically to these things can be acknowledged, but that’s just more motivation to overcome those challenges. Benjamin Franklin summed it up well, and while I’m not a religious person, the quote really isn’t about religion: God helps those who help themselves. It might sound unfortunate, but it’s also, I believe, the best path for getting any type of help. /rant
That's a big part of Capitalism that kind of sucks, a lot of the "winners" didn't work or strive for shit. 1 percenters complaining about handouts, when some of them have been granted the biggest handout of them all. Grandfathered in bs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dattier
That's a big part of Capitalism that kind of sucks, a lot of the "winners" didn't work or strive for shit. 1 percenters complaining about handouts, when some of them have been granted the biggest handout of them all. Grandfathered in bs.

I don’t have a problem with higher tax rates against wealthier people either, within reason.

Those taxes should also be measured against the the causal impact to economy and private sectors, as well. If higher taxes means less jobs, higher prices and less opportunity then that’s not a good thing for me.

But I’d also disagree that capitalism is fixed for the 1%. Some worthless dude inheriting a fortune is different than a company competing with other companies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SNU0821
I don’t have a problem with higher tax rates against wealthier people either, within reason.

Those taxes should also be measured against the the causal impact to economy and private sectors, as well. If higher taxes means less jobs, higher prices and less opportunity then that’s not a good thing for me.

But I’d also disagree that capitalism is fixed for the 1%. Some worthless dude inheriting a fortune is different than a company competing with other companies.
I agree to a certain extent, though there is a high percentage of nepotism involved in those high ranking positions. Upward mobility for those who weren't birthed into those types of inheritance only takes you so far up, then the elevator is halted.
 
I agree to a certain extent, though there is a high percentage of nepotism involved in those high ranking positions. Upward mobility for those who weren't birthed into those types of inheritance only takes you so far up, then the elevator is halted.

I look at that different. When I work for a company, I am my own company offering a service for a fee. If I tangibly provide the company I’m affiliated with more money, then it increases my leverage with that company for higher salary. If they can’t meet that wage, I can take my service to the open market for a higher bidder. If I can’t find a higher bidder than I’m probably being paid at the top of what I can make with current skill set / strategy. Either gotta except that or find ways to increase worth. There is always option of actually starting my own company as well.

But the concept of 1% or nepotism doesn’t really enter my train of thought because more than anything, employers want to make more money and hit their goals. That is more valuable than nepotism, so that is my focus. Of course, knowing the right people helps too. But that’s simply networking the way I see it.
 
By what measure or statistic are you referencing that it requires less work for someone born into wealth...not only to protect and not squander it, but also build on that success? You act like there is just a plethora of inheritance millionaires that sit on their ass and do nothing---ive never met one personally, thats why I ask.
You've previously acknowledged that some people have to work harder to overcome disadvantageous beginnings. What measure were you using?

By what measure would someone who works hard at a full-time job and a part-time job not have a claim of working harder/more than someone whose full-time job pays well enough that they don't have to work a second job at all?
 
SO.... who decides it? I'm not in the business of telling other people what they can do with their money. Im not over here accumulating generational wealth and protecting myself. Ive stated there needs to be a healthy balance of social programs and capitalistic opportunities. There are a ton of people that have accumulated wealth thru risk and years and years of hard work. They did something nobody could do....or was willing to. They absolutely deserve to give their kids a better life than they had b/c they earned it. Its also their responsibility to bring their kids up to build on their success and keep it going for generations. I do work for a trucking and implement manufacturing company that started with one truck in the late 70's. They just sold to Kabota for almost a half billion dollars. The owner does not deserve to be taxed to death bc his hard work created something out of nothing. He created a market by innovation and quality product. He also knew that his company was only as strong as his workforce. He handed out 30 million worth of bonuses to employees on his way out. 3K per year for every employee that had worked there and he even covered guys that had retired in the past 5 years. These type of people don't deserved to be heavily taxed b/c their success. And you act like the poor working harder leads to them being poorer----I think thats a rare case. If they don't do something innovative and create something people want---they wont attain the wealth of some---but its not a contest and its not a right. People will always have more whatever level you are at-and if you haven't done something to earn that level---its not up to anyone to give it to you.

There are plenty of people who have horrible quality of living despite working long hours and working hard, and they have to endure the plummeting value of the few dollars they earn. The Fortune 400 can endure hyperinflation without a blink. Joe Bob making minimum wage can't.

There's no system that will make everything perfectly fair for everyone. So it becomes a decision of...do you care more about securing more wealth for the wealthy (particularly the billionaires) or those struggling to even provide food for their families?
 
  • Like
Reactions: anon_0astpxev9h4gk
I look at that different. When I work for a company, I am my own company offering a service for a fee. If I tangibly provide the company I’m affiliated with more money, then it increases my leverage with that company for higher salary. If they can’t meet that wage, I can take my service to the open market for a higher bidder. If I can’t find a higher bidder than I’m probably being paid at the top of what I can make with current skill set / strategy. Either gotta except that or find ways to increase worth. There is always option of actually starting my own company as well.

But the concept of 1% or nepotism doesn’t really enter my train of thought because more than anything, employers want to make more money and hit their goals. That is more valuable than nepotism, so that is my focus. Of course, knowing the right people helps too. But that’s simply networking the way I see it.
That's true, each company has their own set of goals. I certainly see what you mean with taking your service elsewhere to the highest bidder.
 
There are plenty of people who have horrible quality of living despite working long hours and working hard, and they have to endure the plummeting value of the few dollars they earn. The Fortune 400 can endure hyperinflation without a blink. Joe Bob making minimum wage can't.

There's no system that will make everything perfectly fair for everyone. So it becomes a decision of...do you care more about securing more wealth for the wealthy (particularly the billionaires) or those struggling to even provide food for their families?
****ing a, this.
 
I don't think it should be legally mandated to have health insurance (or at least a specific set of "benefits"), but the blame for absurd premiums and deductibles doesn't fall on Obamacare or the poor. That's insensitive bullshit.

The blame falls on the hospitals. They've become predatory monopolies. In an age where an aspirin in the ER costs 30 bucks and a one-week stint in ICU can cost a quarter million, of course deductibles and premiums are going to be high.

When so many people abuse ERs and then don't pay their bills on top of it, the hospital has to recoup that money somehow.

If John Chornicbellyache goes to the ER and gets a CT he incurs the cost of: emergent care physician, emergent care nurse, CT tech, etc. etc. etc.

If John gets his bill and says "nah", what is the hospital to do? When this happens over and over and over it becomes a massive problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SNU0821
When so many people abuse ERs and then don't pay their bills on top of it, the hospital has to recoup that money somehow.

If John Chornicbellyache goes to the ER and gets a CT he incurs the cost of: emergent care physician, emergent care nurse, CT tech, etc. etc. etc.

If John gets his bill and says "nah", what is the hospital to do? When this happens over and over and over it becomes a massive problem.

To be clear, I really thought the ACA would alleviate this problem and that is a big reason I voted for Obama in 2012. It didn't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SNU0821
Capitalism being a contest isn’t a problem, it’s a solution. I feel the same way about capitalism and the company I work for that I did about my team playing sports. I love competition. I embrace it. Yes, some can’t or won’t compete. Some people need help. Sure. We can give them help.

But the goal of my company is to solve a problem and make not only our lives better but other people’s lives better by solving the problem. And the goal is to dominate the market in the process. Because it makes our lives better. I feel no guilt in wanting to dominate a market. It makes me excited.

There are winners and losers in capitalism.
I see your point. I was looking at it more from the angle of competition taken too far. In sports, there has to be a loser. Life overall should be win-win.

Nature is a good model to compare against. You could see a lion eat a wildebeest and have great empathy for the wildebeest, asking why nature is so cruel. But you could also say it’s a beautiful thing that the lion will live another day while contributing to the evolution of the wildebeest by challenging it’s physical adaptations.

Obviously, it’s not humane to simply let people die...
Yeah, the last part is the limit to the nature metaphor.

...and we should have empathy for the poor. However, failing in a capitalistic system (or anything in life) is your greatest opportunity to refine behavior and strategy. I don’t see failure as a bad thing.

I have pretty much no empathy, however, for ideologies that embrace excuses / hopelessness over empowerment. For example, If I’m black, I’d refuse any ideology telling me my options are limited because of skin color. If I’m gay, I’m not walking around making excuses for not succeeding. Whether there is an element of truth historically to these things can be acknowledged, but that’s just more motivation to overcome those challenges.
Saying what you'd do in someone else's shoes from the perspective of still being who you are is a bit tone deaf. If you were black, you could refuse to accept limitations based on skin color, but where those obstacles are real, the solution is identifying them and eradicating them, not ignoring them. A lot of what people call "excuses" is actually identifying legit systemic problems. Calling those "excuses" is basically just saying you don't want to hear about it.
 
Privilege doesn't exist, remember? That's a myth created by the MSM..Winking

Anything's feasible! Just get 4-5 jobs, hell get a 6th one if you still can't make it in society! Who needs sleep?
If you can’t survive on minimum wage jobs, why not try to do something to get yourself out of those low paying jobs? Instead of working nine jobs, why not try and increase your skills to get a job that pays more?
 
  • Like
Reactions: treyforuk
If you can’t survive on minimum wage jobs, why not try to do something to get yourself out of those low paying jobs? Instead of working nine jobs, why not try and increase your skills to get a job that pays more?

It doesn't even have to be finding a new job/employer. The minimum wage jobs I've worked (McDonad's, Ski Resort) allowed people with good work ethic and good at their job to move up to supervisor roles (with raises).
 
  • Like
Reactions: SNU0821
If you can’t survive on minimum wage jobs, why not try to do something to get yourself out of those low paying jobs? Instead of working nine jobs, why not try and increase your skills to get a job that pays more?
Tell that to the people living in the West End where there are no jobs, nor opportunity for higher education. The more you know.
 
When so many people abuse ERs and then don't pay their bills on top of it, the hospital has to recoup that money somehow.

If John Chornicbellyache goes to the ER and gets a CT he incurs the cost of: emergent care physician, emergent care nurse, CT tech, etc. etc. etc.

If John gets his bill and says "nah", what is the hospital to do? When this happens over and over and over it becomes a massive problem.

Well, if Johnny refuses to even pay it in small installments, then they can take legal action and ultimately garnish the poor bastard's wages. You act like this doesn't happen.

Not to mention, if the bills weren't so outrageous, more people would be willing to pay.

There are many problems with healthcare in this country, but hospital greed is #1. Propagandists zero in on the smaller factors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: treyforuk
Then they can go somewhere else. It’s not like they’re unable to ever leave. The more you try or the harder you work.
Dude, not everyone has a means of transportation to get across town where jobs are present. That's my whole point on systemic racism, keep black people in an area of town with no bus systems that run anywhere near the other side of town where jobs are attainable. That's just an example of Louisville's West End. You don't believe me, next time i'm in town i'll show you around if you live in a close by city.
 
Dude, not everyone has a means of transportation to get across town where jobs are present. That's my whole point on systemic racism, keep black people in an area of town with no bus systems that run anywhere near the other side of town where jobs are attainable. That's just an example of Louisville's West End. You don't believe me, next time i'm in town i'll show you around if you live in a close by city.
I think he means there's nothing keeping them from moving away from there. There are places all over the country where there's opportunity available for people with different kinds of backgrounds. Like where I live, it's kind of an anomaly but you can come out to West Texas having never finished 10th grade and make close to 100K a year with little to no experience right now. AND your company will pay for your housing. AND they'll pay for your food. And in booms like now, they're always hiring.
 
I think he means there's nothing keeping them from moving away from there. There are places all over the country where there's opportunity available for people with different kinds of backgrounds. Like where I live, it's kind of an anomaly but you can come out to West Texas having never finished 10th grade and make close to 100K a year with little to no experience right now. AND your company will pay for your housing. AND they'll pay for your food. And in booms like now, they're always hiring.
Exactly.
 
I think he means there's nothing keeping them from moving away from there. There are places all over the country where there's opportunity available for people with different kinds of backgrounds. Like where I live, it's kind of an anomaly but you can come out to West Texas having never finished 10th grade and make close to 100K a year with little to no experience right now. AND your company will pay for your housing. AND they'll pay for your food. And in booms like now, they're always hiring.
So, how would they go about getting different hypothetical job to in turn get a new place in a new part of town or different city, when said hypothetical job isn't on a bus line? Should they cab it, or spend 30$ on an uber everyday in hopes to eventually leave the West End?
 
Dude, not everyone has a means of transportation to get across town where jobs are present. That's my whole point on systemic racism, keep black people in an area of town with no bus systems that run anywhere near the other side of town where jobs are attainable. That's just an example of Louisville's West End. You don't believe me, next time i'm in town i'll show you around if you live in a close by city.
What’s keeping them in those dead end areas? They’re not required by law to stay there. They can move out of those areas if there aren’t any jobs. If they can’t even do that, then I would likely question decisions they made when they were younger regarding education and things like that.

Nobody is absolutely stuck. Some just don’t want to do what it takes to get themselves out of bad situations. They would rather have people do it for them.
 
So, how would they go about getting different hypothetical job to in turn get a new place in a new part of town or different city, when said hypothetical job isn't on a bus line? Should they cab it, or spend 30$ on an uber everyday in hopes to eventually leave the West End?
Sometimes it’s gonna be hard. Sacrifices will
have to be made. My whole point, it’s possible.
 
What’s keeping them in those dead end areas? They’re not required by law to stay there. They can move out of those areas if there aren’t any jobs. If they can’t even do that, then I would likely question decisions they made when they were younger regarding education and things like that.

Nobody is absolutely stuck. Some just don’t want to do what it takes to get themselves out of bad situations. They would rather have people do it for them.
Yes, they are. Like I said, I will show you around and point out the non-existent bus lines that don't commute to parts of town in which jobs are being offered let alone available.
 
Yes, they are. Like I said, I will show you around and point out the non-existent bus lines that don't commute to parts of town in which jobs are being offered let alone available.
Sorry, don’t buy it. Nobody is stuck. Sometimes it’s just harder to get out for some than others. Again, if people live in a place with no bus lines, no car, no job prospects, I question decisions they made in their lives that got them there. Sorry I don’t want to pay more of my hard earned money to help deadbeats who don’t want to help themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: treyforuk
Yes, they are. Like I said, I will show you around and point out the non-existent bus lines that don't commute to parts of town in which jobs are being offered let alone available.

I mean, it's not hard to find work if you absolutely need it. Go door to door and offer to rake leaves, shovel snow, do manual labor, etc. Get on craigslist and search for odd jobs, in a big city there's always gonna be something to do close to you. Walk 5 miles to an area of town where there is work and walk the 5 miles back. Save up for a bicycle to improve your situation. It's gonna suck at first but each day you get out there and do anything you don't want to do it's going to improve your situation in life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SNU0821
Status
Not open for further replies.
ADVERTISEMENT