Paying College Athletes? Where do you see this going?

[GE Nole]

It is not that simple Jimbo. Colleges and Universities are institutions of higher learning. Thus, someone that enrolls in one should be qualified and have the intention of completing a degree in said discipline of study. Paying students and the one and done system makes a mockery of the true mission of such institutions. Additionally, it is unfair to all the students to go for the purpose of education.

Elite athletes whos only desire to play ball for a living should go straight to the Pros or G league.

I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s sort of a rigid viewpoint.

The athletes do have a specific discipline of study. Their sport. It’s no different than a great singer studying music or an actor in a film major, or a computer engineer working on software, etc.

If a an actor studying film at USC can get paid to be in a movie while in school, or if an engineer at MIT can get paid while in school for an invention, or a law student can get paid for working on a big case with a firm while in school, what’s wrong with a golfer getting paid while in school?

People don’t go to school exclusively for an education. They go to college to enhance their skills and marketability to the work force. People go to college in order to develop a career. The baseball player is no different from the education major. One is in a clinical program to be a teacher, one is in a clinical program to be a baseball player.

 

[Villian07]

I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s sort of a rigid viewpoint.

The athletes do have a specific discipline of study. Their sport. It’s no different than a great singer studying music or an actor in a film major, or a computer engineer working on software, etc.

If a an actor studying film at USC can get paid to be in a movie while in school, or if an engineer at MIT can get paid while in school for an invention, or a law student can get paid for working on a big case with a firm while in school, what’s wrong with a golfer getting paid while in school?

People don’t go to school exclusively for an education. They go to college to enhance their skills and marketability to the work force. People go to college in order to develop a career. The baseball player is no different from the education major. One is in a clinical program to be a teacher, one is in a clinical program to be a baseball player.

Except being good at sports has nothing to do with Higher Education. Maybe if they had universities just for sports that would add up.

But they are mixing the two. If John Doe from UK can jump out of the gym and shoot 45% from 3, what does it matter how good he is at science or world civ or any numerous educational pre-requisites required usually before you enter your major. But yet they overlap.

If athletes were only required to take business classes or finance, then maybe. Or possibly athletes arent required to do prerequisites anymore. I know when i was in school i had a sociology class (pre req) with half the racers basketball team (easiest teacher lol which is a whole other argument, athletes are steered to the easiest possible classes if they dont have legit interest in obtaining a “real” degree)

 

[della]

I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s sort of a rigid viewpoint.

The athletes do have a specific discipline of study. Their sport. It’s no different than a great singer studying music or an actor in a film major, or a computer engineer working on software, etc.

If a an actor studying film at USC can get paid to be in a movie while in school, or if an engineer at MIT can get paid while in school for an invention, or a law student can get paid for working on a big case with a firm while in school, what’s wrong with a golfer getting paid while in school?

People don’t go to school exclusively for an education. They go to college to enhance their skills and marketability to the work force. People go to college in order to develop a career. The baseball player is no different from the education major. One is in a clinical program to be a teacher, one is in a clinical program to be a baseball player.

To me paying players is the last step to owning the lie that Schools are recruiting Pro athletes to compete for for the financial gain of themselves and the schools they play for. This and other actions have destroyed the purity of the amateur game.

Regarding rigidity, you either shoot someone or you didn't.

Edit: I'm all for G league and other minor leagues for budding Pro athletes.

 

[IUfanBorden]

It's the only way elite kids are going to come play college ball. Even then, the top of the top might still skip. But its been a long time coming, and I think most fans agree that players deserve to be paid.

 

[GE Nole]

To me paying players is the last step to owning the lie that Schools are recruiting Pro athletes to compete for for the financial gain of themselves and the schools they play for. This and other actions have destroyed the purity of the amateur game.

Regarding rigidity, you either shoot someone or you didn't.

Edit: I'm all for G league and other minor leagues for budding Pro athletes.

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying in the first paragraph. As you said, college athletes stopped being amateurs a long time ago.

And for the record, I’m a former college athlete and I don’t think they need to be paid anymore than they already are. (Not talking about the scholarship, I’m talking about the cash money they are already paid, legally and above the aboard.)

NIL is another story though. Every single person in a free country deserves to be compensated for the use of their image or likeness.

 

[della]

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying in the first paragraph. As you said, college athletes stopped being amateurs a long time ago.

And for the record, I’m a former college athlete and I don’t think they need to be paid anymore than they already are. (Not talking about the scholarship, I’m talking about the cash money they are already paid, legally and above the aboard.)

NIL is another story though. Every single person in a free country deserves to be compensated for the use of their image or likeness.

I'm saying that paying them likeness erases the last barrier of them being Pro athletes. I believe that college sports should be dialed back to an Ivy league like type system. I believe that kids that aren't smart enough to get into college shouldn't and it doesn't matter if they can run a 4.2 forty or whatever.

 

[GE Nole]

I'm saying that paying them likeness erases the last barrier of them being Pro athletes. I believe that college sports should be dialed back to an Ivy league like type system. I believe that kids that aren't smart enough to get into college shouldn't and it doesn't matter if they can run a 4.2 forty or whatever.

What about kids who aren’t smart enough but sing really well? Or kids who aren’t smart enough but play the saxophone super well? Can they go to college and get paid for their song or saxophone playing?

Giving someone compensation for their likeness is just part of being in a civilized, capitalistic society. It’s the same principle that allows an author to not have their books or characters ripped off. Any American citizen, college student or otherwise, should be able to profit from their own likeness or image.

 

[della]

What about kids who aren’t smart enough but sing really well? Or kids who aren’t smart enough but play the saxophone super well? Can they go to college and get paid for their song or saxophone playing?

Giving someone compensation for their likeness is just part of being in a civilized, capitalistic society. It’s the same principle that allows an author to not have their books or characters ripped off. Any American citizen, college student or otherwise, should be able to profit from their own likeness or image.

Colleges are usually Gov't funded. They are not free enterprise institutions. Kids that have no desire go to college for the sake of education have no business being there.

I have no problem with kids getting paid for their likeness in the G or minor league, but not in college. That is where those kids need to be in the first place.

 

[GE Nole]

Colleges are usually Gov't funded. They are not free enterprise institutions. Kids that have no desire go to college for the sake of education have no business being there.

I have no problem with kids getting paid for their likeness in the G or minor league, but not in college. That is where those kids need to be in the first place.

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Which is cool. No problem there.

But I’ll go back to the beginning with saying the point of college isn’t to get an education. Education is something that is a life long path. Starts at birth.

And the point of education is to be able to learn skills necessary to be a productive, well adjusted, functioning member of society. That means social skills, critical thinking skills, reading and writing skills, workforce training, financial literacy, etc.

College can be part of that. And it is part of that for a football, baseball, basketball, soccer player. And the golfer and the beach volleyball player. They are in college honing their skills and craft that allows them to be a professional and contribute to the economy and society. We should count ourselves lucky that public universities create so many athletic professionals that generate so much impact in our communities’ economy.

 

[della]

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Which is cool. No problem there.

But I’ll go back to the beginning with saying the point of college isn’t to get an education. Education is something that is a life long path. Starts at birth.

And the point of education is to be able to learn skills necessary to be a productive, well adjusted, functioning member of society. That means social skills, critical thinking skills, reading and writing skills, workforce training, financial literacy, etc.

College can be part of that. And it is part of that for a football, baseball, basketball, soccer player. And the golfer and the beach volleyball player. They are in college honing their skills and craft that allows them to be a professional and contribute to the economy and society. We should count ourselves lucky that public universities create so many athletic professionals that generate so much impact in our communities’ economy.

You know I like you. I know you told me what GE means, but you'll always be General Electric Nole to me and I mean that with fondness.

I'm sure we are both biased on our particular positions and regardless of what we think it will be what it will be, so what's the point.

I agree to disagree 🙂

 

[GE Nole]

You know I like you. I know you told me what GE means, but you'll always be General Electric Nole to me and I mean that with fondness.

I'm sure we are both biased on our particular positions and regardless of what we think it will be what it will be, so what's the point.

I agree to disagree 🙂

Ditto, Miss Della!

 

[CB3UK]

Hell's frozen over. I agree with Della on something 😂

 

[Villian07]

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Which is cool. No problem there.

But I’ll go back to the beginning with saying the point of college isn’t to get an education. Education is something that is a life long path. Starts at birth.

And the point of education is to be able to learn skills necessary to be a productive, well adjusted, functioning member of society. That means social skills, critical thinking skills, reading and writing skills, workforce training, financial literacy, etc.

College can be part of that. And it is part of that for a football, baseball, basketball, soccer player. And the golfer and the beach volleyball player. They are in college honing their skills and craft that allows them to be a professional and contribute to the economy and society. We should count ourselves lucky that public universities create so many athletic professionals that generate so much impact in our communities’ economy.

If your talking about the exonomies of the college towns i can agree, but if ur insinuating without colleges, athletes wouldnt make it pro, i disagree.

every other country in the world has zero problem producing professional athletes without the college system.

The NFL is the exception but its also basically american only.

 

[Villian07]

In fact i think the college system hinders young athletes, and they would be better off in the european model where if they are good enough instead of going to the best colleges to play the go to the youth teams of the best Proffessional teams in europe.

But then hundred of universities lose millions of dollars.

 

[GE Nole]

If your talking about the exonomies of the college towns i can agree, but if ur insinuating without colleges, athletes wouldnt make it pro, i disagree.

every other country in the world has zero problem producing professional athletes without the college system.

The NFL is the exception but its also basically american only.

I am talking about economies of towns throughout the country.

But your statement about other nations producing pro athletes is a little overly simplistic. Sure, other nations produce pro athletes. And clearly the soccer system specifically produces great players in Europe.

But look at other sports. Where are all these countries producing gobs and gobs of professional golfers at the highest level? Or what about baseball players at the highest level? Or how about track and field athletes at the highest level?

Are some produced from a few countries? Yes. Jamaica kills it with sprinters. Cuba and Japan do a great job with baseball. The UK and Ireland churn out good golfers.

But what other countries are producing elite level champions in ALL those sports, plus football and basketball? None. And a big part of that is the massive industry that is college athletics.

 

[Villian07]

We are a much bigger nation than some mentioned so hardly a compairson. Plus economic advantages play a role.

And Baseball is probably 50/50 americans vs latin americans. And alot of the americans went pro outta HS.

You mention the nba, but Kobe and Lebron are two of the best ever, and never went to college.

And at risk of turning this into a terrible thread i personally believe slave breeding plays apart in why black americans are far and away the most athletic sub-group, which i know economy plays apart in that as well.

Regardless i dont see the college system as neccessary for athletes to succeed, sans the nfl too many have succeeded without it for that to be true.

 

[Villian07]

Just devils advocate but whose the last elite level sprinter we have produced? Not win one or two races, but elite. Micheal Johnson?

meh edit thats not fair i cant name a single track athlete except usain bolt.

 

[Villian07]

Idk i jsut feel like an elite athlete would be elite at their sport whether they go to college or not as long as they have talent athleticism and work ethic.

 

[GE Nole]

Just devils advocate but whose the last elite level sprinter we have produced? Not win one or two races, but elite. Micheal Johnson?

meh edit thats not fair i cant name a single track athlete except usain bolt.

Walter Dix (FSU), LaShawn Merritt (East Carolina), Aries Merritt (Tennessee), Tyson Gay (Arkansas), Justin Gatlin (Tennessee), Jeremy Wariner (Baylor), Grant Holloway (UF).

And that’s just men in the sprints and hurdles. Women is even more dominant and almost exclusively from colleges and universities. And then you have all the field events.

Yes, baseball is 50/50 US and Latin countries. So where are all the great European baseball players? Or Chinese baseball players? Why aren’t their pro development systems cranking them out?

The high school and college athletic system allows the US to not only produce the best football and basketball players in the world (which we do), but also hundreds and hundreds of the best Olympic sport athletes too across a multitude of sports and events.

Sure the two whole guys you mentioned (Kobe and Lebron) didn’t go to college. But they participated in the same high school/college development system.

Not to mention all the guys like Dame Lillard, Steph Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Donovan Mitchell, etc. who very much needed a long term development system like we have.

 

[GE Nole]

Idk i jsut feel like an elite athlete would be elite at their sport whether they go to college or not as long as they have talent athleticism and work ethic.

Sure with proper coaching and structure. We don’t have the money for the US Olympic Committee or whatever to fund that kind of structure and coaching for dozens and dozens of sports. That’s why other countries are typically only elite at producing athletes in 1-2 sports. It costs a lot of money to build a proper structure for all the sports.

We enable our colleges and universities to do that training and skill development for us by utilizing the insane dollars that football produces. And in the process, we allow for thousands of kids who were late bloomers to grow into their dominance. A guy like Steph Curry would never have been identified as a future pro growing up in a system like Euro soccer.

 

[HawksJ]

The NCAA makes over 1 billion dollars just off the of the tournament alone. Billion with a B. You guys are crazy to think the players, the only reason people tune in, pay money to go, or follow along in the first place, shouldn't get a small cut.

Dude, that is bullshit.

The main reason (I won’t use the word ‘only’, because doing do usually invalidates an argument from the start) people follow cbb is because of the schools.

You should understand that more than most. Nowhere is that more the case than at Kentucky. 90% of BBN will tune in regardless of which group of one-year rent-a-players happens to be on the court. You could swap rosters mid-season with any decent school, and just as many KENTUCKY fans would immediately follow the new group.

As for the NCAA tournament, outside of 2-3 superstars each year, the vast majority of people tune in to watch SCHOOLS, not individual players.

If the value (ie, fan money) lay in the players themselves, then the G League would have displaced the NCAA model long ago. Instead, nobody gives a shit. The value in cbb is in the name on the front.

 

[JimboBBN]

Dude, that is bullshit.

The main reason (I won’t use the word ‘only’, because doing do usually invalidates an argument from the start) people follow cbb is because of the schools.

You should understand that more than most. Nowhere is that more the case than at Kentucky. 90% of BBN will tune in regardless of which group of one-year rent-a-players happens to be on the court. You could swap rosters mid-season with any decent school, and just as many KENTUCKY fans would immediately follow the new group.

As for the NCAA tournament, outside of 2-3 superstars each year, the vast majority of people tune in to watch SCHOOLS, not individual players.

If the value (ie, fan money) lay in the players themselves, then the G League would have displaced the NCAA model long ago. Instead, nobody gives a shit. The value in cbb is in the name on the front.

Didn’t read. Posted itt over a week ago. Don’t care.

 

[HawksJ]

Didn’t read. Posted itt over a week ago. Don’t care.

Glad you already changed your opinion on the subject. It was bullshit.

 

[JimboBBN]

Glad you already changed your opinion on the subject. It was bullshit.

I still think they should get paid. I don’t care if you disagree. Try and keep up.

 

[HawksJ]

I still think they should get paid. I don’t care if you disagree. Try and keep up.

Try to have reasons rather than feels.

 

[JimboBBN]

Try to have reasons rather than feels.

I gave reasons and you’re crying about them a week and a half later. I’m not the only one that feels they should be paid. If you read other posts, you would have seen I do not feel strongly about it one way or the other. You need to get laid.

 

[HawksJ]

I gave reasons and you’re crying about them a week and a half later. I’m not the only one that feels they should be paid. If you read other posts, you would have seen I do not feel strongly about it one way or the other. You need to get laid.

When somebody uses the word ‘only’ in a claim, it usually means that they either feel strongly about it, or they are a moron.

I presumed the former. My bad.

 

[Villian07]

Sure with proper coaching and structure. We don’t have the money for the US Olympic Committee or whatever to fund that kind of structure and coaching for dozens and dozens of sports. That’s why other countries are typically only elite at producing athletes in 1-2 sports. It costs a lot of money to build a proper structure for all the sports.

We enable our colleges and universities to do that training and skill development for us by utilizing the insane dollars that football produces. And in the process, we allow for thousands of kids who were late bloomers to grow into their dominance. A guy like Steph Curry would never have been identified as a future pro growing up in a system like Euro soccer.

You make very compelling points. Esp on the lower level sports, and the late bloomers. The college system casts a much wider net for athletes. I cant really argue with any of this.

Part of my mind set was more on the lines of thinking of lookong at the one and dones like they all really needed that One year of college to be successful. That AD or Zion or Durant or on and on wouldnt be just as successful without going to college for a year. But you are right it certainly helps more ppl than it for lack of a better phrase “holds back”.

I wasnt thinking about the finances it would take to fund pro systems for all the stuff we dominate that doesnt really create much if any revenue like, say swimming. And you are right.

Also very unfair of me to ask about sprinters when i can only name about 3 in history.

I will say the amount of latin americans in the mlb still pokes a hole in your side of the argument, (as well as anericans drafted out of HS) but its mostly bc the MLB has pumped money into scouting and recruiting down there. So right back to the $ of it.

 

[GE Nole]

You make very compelling points. Esp on the lower level sports, and the late bloomers. The college system casts a much wider net for athletes. I cant really argue with any of this.

Part of my mind set was more on the lines of thinking of lookong at the one and dones like they all really needed that year of college to be successful.

I wasnt thinking about the finances it would take to fund pro systems for all the stuff we dominate that doesnt really create much if any revenue like, say swimming. And you are right.

Also very unfair to ask about sprinters when i can only name about 3 in history.

I will say the amount of latin americans in the mlb still pokes a hole in your side of the argument, (as well as anericans drafted out of HS) but its mostly bc the MLB has pumped money into scouting and recruiting down there. So right back to the $ of it.

Bingo. The MLB has provided the structure and coaching necessary for the Caribbean countries to pump out baseball players. You nailed it.

 

[Villian07]

Dude, that is bullshit.

The main reason (I won’t use the word ‘only’, because doing do usually invalidates an argument from the start) people follow cbb is because of the schools.

You should understand that more than most. Nowhere is that more the case than at Kentucky. 90% of BBN will tune in regardless of which group of one-year rent-a-players happens to be on the court. You could swap rosters mid-season with any decent school, and just as many KENTUCKY fans would immediately follow the new group.

As for the NCAA tournament, outside of 2-3 superstars each year, the vast majority of people tune in to watch SCHOOLS, not individual players.

If the value (ie, fan money) lay in the players themselves, then the G League would have displaced the NCAA model long ago. Instead, nobody gives a shit. The value in cbb is in the name on the front.

Your right and thats a good post. More of my problem is all the people that do get a cut of the pie, i think the players should too. They work just as hard imo.

I mean honestly whats the whole point of “amateurism” anyways. You called it, ppl care bc of the schools. Would we care less regardless if the players are getting paid or not? Does them not getting paid, them being amateurs make us care more? And how many are really “amatuers” maybe 20-30%

 

[JimboBBN]

When somebody uses the word ‘only’ in a claim, it usually means that they either feel strongly about it, or they are a moron.

I presumed the former. My bad.

And when someone gets their pantries in a wad about someone’s opinion, an opinion openly stated to not be leaning strongly one way or the other, they haven’t touched poon in a long time.

 

[Villian07]

Bingo. The MLB has provided the structure and coaching necessary for the Caribbean countries to pump out baseball players. You nailed it.

So if the $$ was there, wouldnt this work in America as well, theoretically. I get it the nba and nfl have no interest in putting $ into something they are getting from the ncaa for free.

But again ur right as far as guys like steph and dame might never even get in to get the structure/coaching.

 

[HawksJ]

Your right and thats a good post. More of my problem is all the people that do get a cut of the pie, i think the players should too. They work just as hard imo.

They do get a ‘cut of the pie’.

They get an incredibly expensive asset, that most kids go into debt over, for free and - as someone else already said - live like kings for 4-5 years.

The vast majority will never live so well again - regardless of how much money they end up making.

They get all of that for doing something that most people did - at one time or another - just for fun. In fact, their walk-on teammates still do it just for fun.

 

[Villian07]

Good points as well. I have no problem either way, i dont see why its so important to some people for others not to get paid. Like i dont understand why anyone would care about the amatuerism of it or not, but diff strokes for diff folks, i know some ppl who dont even like pro sports bc of the “pampered athlete” stuff so whatever. This is not a hill i wanna die on either way.

Still, coaches and ADs can make MILLIONS a year off the blood, sweat, and tears of the players, id have no problem either way.

Id rather see a structured salary cap like system in the ncaa than the NIL stuff thats just gonna benefit the schools with the biggest/most influential boosters/fans.

 

[GE Nole]

So if the $$ was there, wouldnt this work in America as well, theoretically. I get it the nba and nfl have no interest in putting $ into something they are getting from the ncaa for free.

But again ur right as far as guys like steph and dame might never even get in to get the structure/coaching.

If it was there, sure. But it will simply never be there for youth swimming, golf, tennis, softball, track & field, diving, etc.

Take a guy like Jalen Green. Sure, that dude would be a stud in any sport he puts his time into. But he didn’t just magically be a great basketball player. He benefitted from aau, us junior olympic camps, high school, prep school, and then the g league. It’s a massive structure grooming him since he was like 10.

 

[Villian07]

If it was there, sure. But it will simply never be there for youth swimming, golf, tennis, softball, track & field, diving, etc.

Take a guy like Jalen Green. Sure, that dude would be a stud in any sport he puts his time into. But he didn’t just magically be a great basketball player. He benefitted from aau, us junior olympic camps, high school, prep school, and then the g league. It’s a massive structure grooming him since he was like 10.

yea i really hadnt considered the smaller/non revenue sports until you mentioned them.

And im not saying kill the structure, just not sold that college has to be a part of it to guarentee success. It will be interesting to see how the guys like green who choose the g league look after a year of grooming there vs his peers in college.

 

[GE Nole]

yea i really hadnt considered the smaller/non revenue sports until you mentioned them.

And im not saying kill the structure, just not sold that college has to be a part of it to guarentee success. It will be interesting to see how the guys like green who choose the g league look after a year of grooming there vs his peers in college.

College doesn’t have to be part of it. Never said that. But there has to be a structure. And aau/high school/college is the structure in the US. And it’s the most efficient structure in the world.

Kids can’t just simply coach themselves for 16 years with zero structure or coaching. There has to be something in place to provide coaching and skill development. For 1 or 2 sports it can be a pro league. But if you want to be a country that produces elite athletes at dozens of different sports decade after decade, you have to have something like we have with high schools and colleges.

 

[sziegler]

Clempson and Bama will be top 2 in recruiting! Wait, thats happening already.

 

[Villian07]

College doesn’t have to be part of it. Never said that. But there has to be a structure. And aau/high school/college is the structure in the US. And it’s the most efficient structure in the world.

Kids can’t just simply coach themselves for 16 years with zero structure or coaching. There has to be something in place to provide coaching and skill development. For 1 or 2 sports it can be a pro league. But if you want to be a country that produces elite athletes at dozens of different sports decade after decade, you have to have something like we have with high schools and colleges.

Great post. Totally agree, you have swayed me for sure. Esp bc of the smaller sports that wouldnt have a structured system without the current college system.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

High court rules against NCAA on compensation

In a ruling that could help push changes in college athletics, the Supreme Court on Monday unanimously sided with a group of former college athletes in a dispute with the NCAA over rules limiting certain compensation.

www.espn.com