Is the Summit the biggest news this offseason?

[LetsGoDuke301]

I mean, pretty much every single news source out there mentions that the Bush and Obama administrations were morally and pragmatically opposed to separating children from their families, even if some adult immigrants were clearly taking advantage of that. So everything that you're hearing lately about the large numbers of kids being detained separately is absolutely because of the zero tolerance policy that the Trump administration implemented a couple of months ago. I won't defend the idea that it never happened in the past but the only reason people are talking about it now is because it's happening on a scale like we've never seen before.

You've mentioned before that you don't think the mainstream media is ever being truthful (which I tend to agree with sometimes), but just curious, where do you go to get your information from that you use to discuss topics on this board?

You honestly think that the only reason why people are talking about it now is because it is happening at a scale like we've never seen? Watch the cnn video I posted. It provides numbers from 2014.

Also, why are we continuing to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the kids in detention centers came in unaccompanied?

Why won't the democrats sit down with Trump instead of running to the news networks claiming to be the moral authority while doing nothing to contribute to the resolve? What are the democrats ideas besides open borders?

 

[brooky03]

You honestly think that the only reason why people are talking about it now is because it is happening at a scale like we've never seen? Watch the cnn video I posted. It provides numbers from 2014.

Also, why are we continuing to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the kids in detention centers came in unaccompanied?

Why won't the democrats sit down with Trump instead of running to the news networks claiming to be the moral authority while doing nothing to contribute to the resolve? What are the democrats ideas besides open borders?

a) The conversation is not about kids simply being held in detention centers, it's about kids being pulled apart from their parents. Two related but separate issues. And the kids held in the detention centers are currently being held there much longer than under previous administrations. The efforts to expedite the return of the kids to their country/family members has slowed considerably. That's a problem regardless of who the president is.

b) Who says Democrats aren't willing to sit down and come to a solution? Both sides have to be willing/able. Trump has shown that he likes to manipulate media and social media coverage. It's not alarming that Democrats are fighting fire with fire, to a degree.

c) Solutions have been presented that aren't to the extreme of just opening the borders. I haven't witnessed people claiming moral authority on this issue without some idea of a practical solution.

 

[billyforUK2017]

Liberals scream to high heaven about compassion for KIDS that are stuck at the border.

Liberals want to abolish the second amendment when a school shooting happens that kills KIDS.

Liberals defend Planned Parenthood, which kills 300,000 KIDS a year(many of those being from minority women).

Oh the travesty!

Why you morons try to debate people like Dattier and the other ilk that post here is beyond me. It has nothing to do about the kids, its all about power and them wanting you to succumb to their way of thinking. Wake up, idiots.

Send them ALL back to where they came from.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

And guess what? The children go into foster care or to the care of a family member, not a cell. Don't parrot the nonsense Tucker Carlson craps out of his mouth.

For 20 days they can be held. That decision was made by a judge not a politician.

Again, use facts not Nancy Pelosi lies.

because they weren't being separated 5 years ago; not on this scale, at the very least. that was an easy one. what else you got?

How do you know that?

 

[schoonerwest]

You honestly think that the only reason why people are talking about it now is because it is happening at a scale like we've never seen? Watch the cnn video I posted. It provides numbers from 2014.

Also, why are we continuing to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the kids in detention centers came in unaccompanied?

Why won't the democrats sit down with Trump instead of running to the news networks claiming to be the moral authority while doing nothing to contribute to the resolve? What are the democrats ideas besides open borders?

That video says unaccompanied minors who crossed over in 2014. The recent hot topic is about kids being separated at the border by American border agents. One is something that Americans have control over while the other is not, right?

I can't explain why the democrats and Trump don't work together well. I'm pretty sure that's a problem on both sides. Trump has certainly made it clear that he believes everything good that happens is something he created himself while anything perceived bad is somebody's elses fault. So you know he's definitely part of the problem when it comes to not working well with others.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

That video says unaccompanied minors who crossed over in 2014. The recent hot topic is about kids being separated at the border by American border agents. One is something that Americans have control over while the other is not, right?

I can't explain why the democrats and Trump don't work together well. I'm pretty sure that's a problem on both sides. Trump has certainly made it clear that he believes everything good that happens is something he created himself while anything perceived bad is somebody's elses fault. So you know he's definitely part of the problem when it comes to not working well with others.

Ask the democrats.

This is the only position that they have for November elections if the economy keeps going well. It WILL NOT be settled by November unless the Republicans can find 9 vulnerable Senators to change and vote with the Senate republicans.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

And guess what? The children go into foster care or to the care of a family member, not a cell. Don't parrot the nonsense Tucker Carlson craps out of his mouth.

Sorry Brooky I don't watch Tucker Carlson. In fact I basically think for my self.

 

[829305]

Liberals scream to high heaven about compassion for KIDS that are stuck at the border.

Liberals want to abolish the second amendment when a school shooting happens that kills KIDS.

Liberals defend Planned Parenthood, which kills 300,000 KIDS a year(many of those being from minority women).

Oh the travesty!

Why you morons try to debate people like Dattier and the other ilk that post here is beyond me. It has nothing to do about the kids, its all about power and them wanting you to succumb to their way of thinking. Wake up, idiots.

Send them ALL back to where they came from.

 

[AWilli6995]

That video says unaccompanied minors who crossed over in 2014. The recent hot topic is about kids being separated at the border by American border agents. One is something that Americans have control over while the other is not, right?

I can't explain why the democrats and Trump don't work together well. I'm pretty sure that's a problem on both sides. Trump has certainly made it clear that he believes everything good that happens is something he created himself while anything perceived bad is somebody's elses fault. So you know he's definitely part of the problem when it comes to not working well with others.

I totally agree, especially your second paragraph.

 

[brooky03]

How do you know that?

Because I can read?

 

[Dattier]

Look, dickhead. I do have compassion for families-

At your invitation, I demonstrated how you lack compassion using your own posts and explaining how they show it, and you reply with name-calling and the same denial I predicted in bookending my post.

 

[Dattier]

Send them ALL back to where they came from.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Well why didn't you say so?? Sounds easy!

I never said it was going to be easy, nor did I imply it.

In the meanwhile, the US has a range of measures to try to curb/slow down illegal immigration. One of those potential tools is a strict zero tolerance policy that separates kids from their families. Previous administrations have separated children from families with great caution due to the moral/ethical/soft power concerns it entails (and likely the questionable benefit re: deterrence). The new policy, which is absolutely a choice that Trump made within the discretion the executive has in enforcing immigration laws, is different than it was before.

What did Obama do about it?

Separate families in as few cases as possible, and prioritize deportation for the worst actors.

You honestly think that the only reason why people are talking about it now is because it is happening at a scale like we've never seen?

It is the primary reason. Trump's been in office since January 2017. There wasn't a huge backlash against separating families at the border until the last month, when reports about the effect of the zero tolerance policy that causes the family separations, which began around late April, started coming in. So there is a clear cause and effect. Is it stronger backlash because Trump? Certainly. But the backlash is because of the scale of the issue.

And it doesn't have to be the only reason. You're obsessed with absolutes like "only" and "always." That tells me (1) you're not arguing in good faith, (2) you're not articulating your arguments well, (3) you're one of those miserable people who think that enjoying sex within marriage is a sin because it should only be about procreation, or (4) you're a Sith. Probably 1 or 2, but I don't know.

How do you know that?

Here's a source:

Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for Nielsen, said the administration does not have a family-separation policy. But Waldman agreed that Trump officials are exercising their prosecutorial discretion to charge more illegal-entry offenses, which in turn causes more family separations. The Obama administration also separated immigrant families, she said.

“We’re increasing the rate of what we were already doing,” Waldman said. “Instead of letting some slip through, we’re saying we’re doing it for all.”

(Look at me, providing a source to something that wasn't even my proposition. A source. When requested. Weird, right?)

 

[SNU0821]

This latest tangent ITT is a classic example of the MSM and Democrats going after Trump for anything they possibly can. There isn’t policy changes made by this administration. They’re simply actually enforcing the laws. But the liberals and Democrats don’t care about that, they just know it’s Trumps fault, somehow, even though Trump said he’s willing to work with them to fix the broader problem instead of a bandaid fix and kicking the can down the road.

It’s beyond predictable and I honestly don’t believe a thing the MSM is crying about with this whole issue. The people who DO believe it, well, they fall right in line with the Trump hating liberals. SHOCKER.

 

[Big_Blue79]

There isn’t policy changes made by this administration.

Wrong. Did you even read the "latest tangent ITT?" Here's a simple analogy. It's always against the law to go 27 in a 25. Your town rarely even pulls someone over for going 27 in a 25, let alone issues tickets for the offense. But a new mayor comes in and directs the police to ticket anyone going over the speed limit. So now you're driving 27 in a 25 and get a ticket every single time. Did the law change? No. Did the enforcement policy change? Yes.

Don't be dumb.

 

[SNU0821]

Wrong. Did you even read the "latest tangent ITT?" Here's a simple analogy. It's always against the law to go 27 in a 25. Your town rarely even pulls someone over for going 27 in a 25, let alone issues tickets for the offense. But a new mayor comes in and directs the police to ticket anyone going over the speed limit. So now you're driving 27 in a 25 and get a ticket every single time. Did the law change? No. Did the enforcement policy change? Yes.

Don't be dumb.

The actual law didn't change. Yes, he's actually enforcing the law, but that's not what causing them to separate kids from their parents, the law is responsible for that. And, I'm glad he's actually enforcing the laws. If we don't like the laws, Congress can change them.

 

[SNU0821]

Here's the bottom line..............If you don't want to get separated from your kids, DON'T COME INTO THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.

Problem solved.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I don't know a lot about what's going on at the border so I haven't gotten my feet wet debating it. When I tried to ask/understand about an alternative solution yesterday all I got back was "Wow".

I've been reading/waiting for someone to propose a solution. I may have missed it.

 

[JimboBBN]

Here's the bottom line..............If you don't want to get separated from your kids, DON'T COME INTO THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.

Problem solved.

How dare you put any responsibility on them, it’s all Trumps fault!1

 

[treyforuk]

I don't know a lot about what's going on at the border so I haven't gotten my feet wet debating it. When I tried to ask/understand about an alternative solution yesterday all I got back was "Wow".

I've been reading/waiting for someone to propose a solution. I may have missed it.

Let them all cross.over with food stamps, free.housing and health care, and a registration card. Problem solved.

 

[SNU0821]

How dare you put any responsibility on them, it’s all Trumps fault!1

I love the part where they say Obama didn't do this, either. But wait, those pictures of kids in cages or whatever that people tried to blame on Trump was actually from Obama. Funny how that narrative was quickly dropped. Now the whole thing is Trumps fault.

It goes back to the MSM and liberals trying to find SOMETHING to blame Trump for in hopes it hurts him in the primaries and then in 2020. Funny part, I think the MSM's reputation is so bad that a lot of Americans don't believe their constant lies.

 

[SNU0821]

I don't know a lot about what's going on at the border so I haven't gotten my feet wet debating it. When I tried to ask/understand about an alternative solution yesterday all I got back was "Wow".

I've been reading/waiting for someone to propose a solution. I may have missed it.

They don't have a solution other than "change the policy" which essentially means let them go free into the country.

 

[JimboBBN]

I love the part where they say Obama didn't do this, either. But wait, those pictures of kids in cages or whatever that people tried to blame on Trump was actually from Obama. Funny how that narrative was quickly dropped. Now the whole thing is Trumps fault.

It goes back to the MSM and liberals trying to find SOMETHING to blame Trump for in hopes it hurts him in the primaries and then in 2020. Funny part, I think the MSM's reputation is so bad that a lot of Americans don't believe their constant lies.

The thing is, the lefties take calling out the double standard as defending Trump. I don’t think any conservative has actually defended his policy, but only called out the hypocrisy that the Dems are buried in. If we are going to shit on one guy for it, then shit on everyone. If not, STFU

 

[Big_Blue79]

The actual law didn't change. Yes, he's actually enforcing the law, but that's not what causing them to separate kids from their parents, the law is responsible for that. And, I'm glad he's actually enforcing the laws. If we don't like the laws, Congress can change them.

You said:

There isn’t policy changes made by this administration.

I take it you're backing off that position. Thanks for that admission. Moving on.

Damn near every law gives the executive a wide swath of discretion in enforcement, and that's by design at the constitutional and law making level (not quite freshmen level government stuff, but close). So taking the extreme stand of literally zero tolerance is a choice (and one that fails badly in every other aspect of the criminal justice system). But if we're going to go all out on laws, let's do it in a way that will be much more effective - conduct audits on literally everyone. Tax cheating costs ~ $450 billion/year (and that was an estimate based on 2008-10 numbers during a recession, probably much higher now). So let's audit everyone, have the severest penalties apply (gotta have that deterrence!), throw the worst tax cheats in jail (which will have the predictable side effect of separating parents from children), and then build whatever wall anyone wants with the proceeds. Win-win-win.

SNU0821 - audits for all!

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

@Big_Blue79 what is your solution aside from open borders?

 

[Big_Blue79]

The thing is, the lefties take calling out the double standard as defending Trump. I don’t think any conservative has actually defended his policy, but only called out the hypocrisy that the Dems are buried in. If we are going to shit on one guy for it, then shit on everyone. If not, STFU

But it's not the same for all the reasons already articulated and sourced. I'm just going to disengage because it's clear you're unable or unwilling to think critically.

@Big_Blue79 what is your solution aside from open borders?

"Solving" the immigrant issue is obviously quite complex. In reality, so long as there is shitty stuff going on somewhere, deterrence is going to make little impact. There's just too big of a delta between even illegal immigrant life in the US and conditions in places like El Salvador. So it's going to have to be a number of things that would occur concurrently. First, I would crack down on demand (like we should be doing in the failed war on drugs) by heavily penalizing employers that employ illegals (R administrations severely cut back on this). Second, I would again crack down on demand by having lifetime caps on some (but not all) forms of welfare. Third, I would crack down on supply by expanding the sponsorship system (which would mainly focus on those already in the country; lots of good articles on how this could work). Fourth, I would keep the Dream thing alive. Fifth, I would entirely change strategy with the war on drugs, which has exacerbated so many problems in our hemisphere, and immediately legalize marijuana at the federal level and focus resources on treatment options. Sixth, I would prioritize enforcement to focus on the worst elements that are already in our country and coming through the borders (which is what Obama did rather than full on zero tolerance). Probably more, but that's a start.

And there are some big picture ideas that will help a lot (indirectly) but will require a lot more than some relatively simple solutions, like rethinking how we engage with the world re: military interventions, reprioritizing foreign aid (again, currently heavily tied to the military industrial complex and the middle east), jacking up the minimum wage while simultaneously cracking down on welfare/medicare fraud (basically making work worthwhile as compared to scamming), and even overhauling our tax system to 1) tax income and capital gains the same (hopefully at the capital gains rate), and 2) offsetting the cost with a scaling carbon tax. Basically, use the tax code to shape behavior (like we already do), but in a much better way than is currently done.

[And not trying to pick on you, but throwing out a loaded question like that is pretty low. It's an attempt to categorize the other side's argument at the extreme side of the debate. That'd be like me asking you "what's your solution besides jailing all brown people." I assume (and I think I'm right in this) that you're not really an asshole, but this style is dishonest and sophomoric. I'm not "lol open borders" at all, and I've never said anything that any reasonable person could construe as that at all. And to be clear, I appreciate the ask even if I dislike the loaded question part of it.]

 

[I am stupid]

Nothing you just typed addressed the problem. What do you do with children who are brought over with parents breaking laws or children brought over by "bad hombres".

 

[JimboBBN]

But it's not the same for all the reasons already articulated and sourced. I'm just going to disengage because it's clear you're unable or unwilling to think critically.



"Solving" the immigrant issue is obviously quite complex. In reality, so long as there is shitty stuff going on somewhere, deterrence is going to make little impact. There's just too big of a delta between even illegal immigrant life in the US and conditions in places like El Salvador. So it's going to have to be a number of things that would occur concurrently. First, I would crack down on demand (like we should be doing in the failed war on drugs) by heavily penalizing employers that employ illegals (R administrations severely cut back on this). Second, I would again crack down on demand by having lifetime caps on some (but not all) forms of welfare. Third, I would crack down on supply by expanding the sponsorship system (which would mainly focus on those already in the country; lots of good articles on how this could work). Fourth, I would keep the Dream thing alive. Fifth, I would entirely change strategy with the war on drugs, which has exacerbated so many problems in our hemisphere, and immediately legalize marijuana at the federal level and focus resources on treatment options. Sixth, I would prioritize enforcement to focus on the worst elements that are already in our country and coming through the borders (which is what Obama did rather than full on zero tolerance). Probably more, but that's a start.

And there are some big picture ideas that will help a lot (indirectly) but will require a lot more than some relatively simple solutions, like rethinking how we engage with the world re: military interventions, reprioritizing foreign aid (again, currently heavily tied to the military industrial complex and the middle east), jacking up the minimum wage while simultaneously cracking down on welfare/medicare fraud (basically making work worthwhile as compared to scamming), and even overhauling our tax system to 1) tax income and capital gains the same (hopefully at the capital gains rate), and 2) offsetting the cost with a scaling carbon tax. Basically, use the tax code to shape behavior (like we already do), but in a much better way than is currently done.

[And not trying to pick on you, but throwing out a loaded question like that is pretty low. It's an attempt to categorize the other side's argument at the extreme side of the debate. That'd be like me asking you "what's your solution besides jailing all brown people." I assume (and I think I'm right in this) that you're not really an asshole, but this style is dishonest and sophomoric. I'm not "lol open borders" at all, and I've never said anything that any reasonable person could construe as that at all. And to be clear, I appreciate the ask even if I dislike the loaded question part of it.]

Do you, man. If you are unwilling to concede what happened with the previous administration then there’s nothing to talk about.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Nothing you just typed addressed the problem. What do you do with children who are brought over with parents breaking laws or children brought over by "bad hombres".

The question had the "open borders" part, which is about immigration policy generally. The children brought over by "bad hombres" were (under Obama) and should continue to be separated and placed with the nearest relative. No one is really disputing that, and it's a red herring (also your use of "breaking laws" has far more sinister connotations than illegal crossing; it's like the undocumented workers for the right).

The issue is the children accompanied by the non "bad hombres." And the answer is to do what Obama did, what Bush (largely) did, and what Trump did for 15 months. And that will result in some people entering the country illegally. It's not perfect, and no system is. It will also have the effect of allowing children taken (due to "bad hombres" or no proof of paternity) to be processed by the overloaded system faster. Basically, the overburdened system should prioritize its limited resources on the worst. Triage.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Do you, man. If you are unwilling to concede what happened with the previous administration then there’s nothing to talk about.

I have concede what happened with the previous administration, which is different than what the current administration is doing (the point you are unwilling or unable to see). I even posted links to articles that explain the difference.

It's pretty shady of you to pretend like I said otherwise, frankly.

 

[JimboBBN]

I have concede what happened with the previous administration, which is different than what the current administration is doing (the point you are unwilling or unable to see). I even posted links to articles that explain the difference.

It's pretty shady of you to pretend like I said otherwise, frankly.

I haven’t read through this entire mess, but thumbs up for you if you did

 

[Dattier]

Nothing you just typed addressed the problem. What do you do with children who are brought over with parents breaking laws or children brought over by "bad hombres".

Before we can address that here, we have to convince some of what the actual issue is.

 

[I am stupid]

My use of breaking laws is not sinister. It was to mean more than just illegally crossing the boarder. If they are with family crossing the boarder its easy, send them all back. What about a kid whose mom or dad has some kind of record, but not serious like a "bad hombre".

 

[Dattier]

Do you, man. If you are unwilling to concede what happened with the previous administration then there’s nothing to talk about.

Well, then we will never be able to address anything b/c some previous thing will always have to be addressed first.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

Here's the bottom line..............If you don't want to get separated from your kids, DON'T COME INTO THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.

Problem solved.

It is so simple. If you don't want to be separated from you kids don't rob a bank.

duh

80% of the illegal kids being held were unaccompanied minors. Great parent let their kids go hundreds of miles with coyotes, so they can steal their way into America. The parents should be publicly whipped for allowing such shit. They sure as hell don't love their kids.

 

[Big_Blue79]

My use of breaking laws is not sinister. It was to mean more than just illegally crossing the boarder. If they are with family crossing the boarder its easy, send them all back. What about a kid whose mom or dad has some kind of record, but not serious like a "bad hombre".

I didn't mean to imply that you personally meant it in a sinister way, only that it is often used that way. I agree just send the whole family back is the best option for just crossing. There's obviously a lot of gray area between that and "bad hombre" which would include "some kind of answer," but there's a reasonable line somewhere in there. I think all violent crimes tend to fit the "bad hombre" niche, and I would keep it around that area, if for no other reason than it will allow the system to work better by reducing the workload. And there's some devil in the details, of course, including the use of discretion at the lower levels.

Part of the problem with a zero tolerance policy is that it places a huge strain on the system that is already overloaded, so the outcomes for everyone (including those that did relatively little) are substantially worse. And the lighter the offense, the more that strain makes a difference (for example, an offense that carries a 10 day sentence but 90 days jail time just awaiting trial is proportionately worse than that extra 90 days for a 10 year sentence).

Thanks for discussing.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

At your invitation, I demonstrated how you lack compassion using your own posts and explaining how they show it, and you reply with name-calling and the same denial I predicted in bookending my post.

You gave me you opinion on how YOU see my comments lacking compassion. And you did it in a condescending, dickhead way. Don't go all victim on me. I don't mind that you were a dickhead to me, just called you what you were being.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

 

[Big_Blue79]

80% of the illegal kids being held were unaccompanied minors.

Hi. I've seen this claimed several times in this thread. Do you have a source for this? I ask because you seem to be conflating two things.

First, the 2000 kids that were separated from their parents/guardians in the last month pursuant to Trump's zero tolerance policy at the border. This is what we and most of the people on the internet are discussing because (i) it's new, and (ii) it's shocking.

Second, the roughly 8000 other children in shelters run by the Office of Refugee Resettlement. These are minors that were unaccompanied. This is not the current topic.

Source:

(Also if you have the source for the 80% VAT in Germany on American-made cars, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!)

 

[JimboBBN]

Well, then we will never be able to address anything b/c some previous thing will always have to be addressed first.

I’m more than willing to talk about Trumps policies. I’m not a fan of this one.