Inside Look at CBB Referee Life

[IUfanBorden]

I think it is more a case of UK fans being hypersensitive here. You guys feel like people are out to get you. I live close enough to Kentucky to know that is the way it is with some fans there. Hell, some of my friends feel this way. So when logic and reason stands up to this paranoia I think it confuses you. You aren't sure how to react so you project this sensitivity towards others.

Yeah, pretty much this. Look, I have a ton of friends who are UK fans....Family members as well. For themost part----great people. Until they lose. Then its over. Especially with my brother in law. During the OSU game, all he could talk about was---"8 fouls to 1". Then, about 2 weeks later, is was totally different. UK had 2 fouls called on them....7 on the opponent. Never heard a peep. So I asked---. The answer coming was predictable---"Well we have officials who are fair".

I really don't get it. Look I cannot possibly speak on the behalf of every official. Maybe some do have an axe to grind with Cal. I dunno. But through the experiences I have, and have had, that just isn't the case. But hey, trying to convince a UK fan of that is meaningless.

 

[Cat_Incognito]

Look I cannot possibly speak on the behalf of every official. Maybe some do have an axe to grind with Cal. I dunno.

 

[RipThru]

I do not. But who said anything about bias? You know its possible not to like someone, or think someone is a big ass crybaby, but not have a bias toward them, right? Do I think some officials dislike Cal? I sure do. I also think some officials don't like Izzo, K, Roy, Miller, etc, etc....In other words, its nothing unique to Cal.

This is horse$shit. The moment you make a decision about a person, you have a preconceived idea about them, and, in this case, their behavior.

And I’m not one of those dudes that thinks officiating is the reason UK loses every game. I think k officiating is horrible for the most part. Period. There’s a rule book. Just follow it. There is so much difference in the way games are called from crew to crew it’s ridiculous. A foul tonight is not a foul tomorrow. Refs have to “tighten up” so the game doesn’t get out of hand. How about calling the game so it doesn’t get to that point? And it’s not just college. It’s at all levels.

 

[Random UK Fan]

UK had 2 fouls called on them....7 on the opponent. Never heard a peep. So I asked---. The answer coming was predictable---"Well we have officials who are fair.

That is pretty funny! Don’t know him, but I LIKE him!

 

[Villian07]

I read it best on here so I know I’m stealing this quote from another poster but,

When u become accustomed to favoritism (rupp arena) equality feels like oppression.

 

[Cat_Incognito]

I read it best on here so I know I’m stealing this quote from another poster but,

When u become accustomed to favoritism (rupp arena) equality feels like oppression.

So you're saying that UK gets home-cooking? I just want to make sure I understand your point of view.

 

[UL_1986]

More sensitivity, shocking. Those big bad refs are meanies! Lol, bunch of crybaby pussies.

 

[I am stupid]

I have something to confess. I am a bad UK fan. I can't recognize any of the officials. I only know some of the names since they are posted frequently on here, RR, twitter, etc...

 

[IUfanBorden]

That is pretty funny! Don’t know him, but I LIKE him!

He's a great dude. But man when it comes to UK, and the officiating? Lawdy...I hate it to, becasue they'll always ask me---"man, what did you think?" I just agree. I ain't stupid.

 

[IUfanBorden]

I have something to confess. I am a bad UK fan. I can't recognize any of the officials. I only know some of the names since they are posted frequently on here, RR, twitter, etc...

Actually, false. You are, IMO, one of the better UK posters on here.

 

[IUfanBorden]

This is horse$shit. The moment you make a decision about a person, you have a preconceived idea about them, and, in this case, their behavior.

And I’m not one of those dudes that thinks officiating is the reason UK loses every game. I think k officiating is horrible for the most part. Period. There’s a rule book. Just follow it. There is so much difference in the way games are called from crew to crew it’s ridiculous. A foul tonight is not a foul tomorrow. Refs have to “tighten up” so the game doesn’t get out of hand. How about calling the game so it doesn’t get to that point? And it’s not just college. It’s at all levels.

If officials called the game "by the book", games would last 5 hours, and you guys would bitch even more.
Also, its horseshit to think just b/c I feel a coach is a whiner, than I then become biased toward him. Not at all. I just pay less attention to his complaining. i still call the game the exact same. I just tune the whiny bastard out.

 

[RipThru]

If officials called the game "by the book", games would last 5 hours, and you guys would bitch even more.
Also, its horseshit to think just b/c I feel a coach is a whiner, than I then become biased toward him. Not at all. I just pay less attention to his complaining. i still call the game the exact same. I just tune the whiny bastard out.

Well you’re one of the few then. Saw Don Daily give Cal a T for having one foot out of the box while coaching his team. The other coach was in and out all night and didn’t even get a warning. I know, I know, Cal got a warning. But it speaks volumes that Daily was watching Cal rather than watching the game action. And in the Arkansas game two officials raced to see who could call the second one and one said “I wanted that one”. Cal got a screw job in 96 when playing against UK in the tournament. Same situation with the box. Dont tell me there aren’t officials with a bias.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Well you’re one of the few then. Saw Don Daily give Cal a T for having one foot out of the box while coaching his team. The other coach was in and out all night and didn’t even get a warning. I know, I know, Cal got a warning. But it speaks volumes that Daily was watching Cal rather than watching the game action. And in the Arkansas game two officials raced to see who could call the second one and one said “I wanted that one”. Cal got a screw job in 96 when playing against UK in the tournament. Same situation with the box. Dont tell me there aren’t officials with a bias.

I never said there wasn't officials with a bias. I am sure there are. Most though, through my experience's, do not. And even if some do, they all don't. But you guys seem to think every single official has it out for Cal, and UK. That isn't even remotely close to true.
As for the coaching box---I mean, do you really know what goes on with that? We tell coaches all the time---"If you are out of the box, COACHING your kids, and do not get in our way---that is fine. BUT---if you come out of that box, coaching us---Well, we now have an issue.". Point being, you might see one coach out his box many of times---But he might be simply giving instructions to his team. Then, you see your coach out of the box a few times, and he gets warned. Now you are all up in arms b/c the other coach has been out the box, with no warning. Well, the scenario's are different. One is coaching---the other is bitching at the officials. There is a difference. But as fans, you don't understand that. Its a part of the game you simply don't get.

As for the ejection---Cal earned that brother. he was given multiple opportunities to go back to the bench. He chose not to. And yep, I saw both give him the heave. My guess? He probably said the magic words that both heard, and both reacted. After all, both officials were right there beside him. MOF, the non calling official was doing all he could do, to get Cal to go back to the bench.

Sorry brother. Cal got what he had coming. And he knew it.

 

[RipThru]

1. I don’t dispute Cal has it coming. The issue for me was “I wanted that one”.

2. Cal WAS coaching his kids when he got popped. Even the announcers said so. He and Daily has words earlier, and it seemed he was waiting for it.

3. I have never used officiating as a reason for a loss and I challenge you to find where I did. My point is officiating is inconsistent night in and night out at best, and at worst it’s biased/corrupt.

 

[schoonerwest]

If officials called the game "by the book", games would last 5 hours, and you guys would bitch even more.
Also, its horseshit to think just b/c I feel a coach is a whiner, than I then become biased toward him. Not at all. I just pay less attention to his complaining. i still call the game the exact same. I just tune the whiny bastard out.

I think most fans in general want to see some consistency from game to game across the season. In the beginning of the year, and you’ve even said this is true, officials are instructed to call the game a certain way to set the tone for the entire season. It’s why we see two hour fifteen minute games that have 50 fouls called. Most people hate that but whatever, that’s fine if they want to set the tone for the year.

You know what, I’m gonna copy a post I made a few weeks ago about some of the reasons why people have issues with refs.



“You constantly see 9-1 foul disparities that become 9-9 in like 7 minutes of basketball. You constantly see awful calls being made as a favor to the other team for a previously blown call. Charge/Blocking fouls are right only 50% of the time. It's like they flip a coin in their head and then just yell what the result is. Early in the season you'll see 50 fouls called for a game because they want to set an example for the season. That's probably the worst thing of all that they do because later in the season those same refs won't call those same fouls. The players aren't learning from what happened in November/December. They're only paying attention to what's being called in the game they are playing in that day. If they weren't so inconsistent all of the time you'd hear less about fans caring about what the refs were doing in CBB (except from UK fans).”

 

[IUfanBorden]

I think most fans in general want to see some consistency from game to game across the season. In the beginning of the year, and you’ve even said this is true, officials are instructed to call the game a certain way to set the tone for the entire season. It’s why we see two hour fifteen minute games that have 50 fouls called. Most people hate that but whatever, that’s fine if they want to set the tone for the year.

You know what, I’m gonna copy a post I made a few weeks ago about some of the reasons why people have issues with refs.



“You constantly see 9-1 foul disparities that become 9-9 in like 7 minutes of basketball. You constantly see awful calls being made as a favor to the other team for a previously blown call. Charge/Blocking fouls are right only 50% of the time. It's like they flip a coin in their head and then just yell what the result is. Early in the season you'll see 50 fouls called for a game because they want to set an example for the season. That's probably the worst thing of all that they do because later in the season those same refs won't call those same fouls. The players aren't learning from what happened in November/December. They're only paying attention to what's being called in the game they are playing in that day. If they weren't so inconsistent all of the time you'd hear less about fans caring about what the refs were doing in CBB (except from UK fans).”

I mean this with all due respect. But as a fan, and.or fans, who has zero training as an official...has attended no clinics...has attended no rules interpretation meetings, I just find it odd that some of you feel you understand how a game should be called. I doubt most of you understand what is meant by illegal contact, versus basketball contact. I'm not in anyway trying to be an ass. But we have went discussion after discussion, over the officiating. TBH, its no different now than it was 25 years ago. MOF, its probably better. The difference between now and then---is simple: Technology. Social media. Calls that are missed, or are bad, are more visible today than they were 25 years ago. Hell, even 10 years ago, Its changed the perception of how the game is called.

As for calling it tight early, then not calling those same fouls. I mean, I guess? Again, not all contact is the same. Contact in the post is treated differently, than contact on the perimeter. As I have said hundreds of times, when there is contact you have to decide---What did the contact create? An advantage? Disadvantage? Was the contact incidental? More importantly, was it illegal? WHo created the contact? Did the contact keep an offensive or defensive player from being able to make a play? SOme of you see contact that is a foul, then see contact that you think is a foul, but its not. You then scream, "thats the same thing at the other end". Sometimes you are right. But I'd say a majority of the time, you are not. I say this simply because you haven't been trained to make that decision.

Again, I say this in the nicest way possible. I'm not saying the game doesn't need cleaned up...It does. But for the most part, its not as bad as some of you think. And look ,I don't care what "Joe Blow the reporter, from Bleacher Report says....Or Goodman...Or Bilas. None of those dudes have a clue what it takes to call a game at this level. And none of them to my knowledge, have any training as an official. But for some reason, they all seem to know everything there is to know.

Weird.

 

[schoonerwest]

I mean this with all due respect. But as a fan, and.or fans, who has zero training as an official...has attended no clinics...has attended no rules interpretation meetings, I just find it odd that some of you feel you understand how a game should be called. I doubt most of you understand what is meant by illegal contact, versus basketball contact. I'm not in anyway trying to be an ass. But we have went discussion after discussion, over the officiating. TBH, its no different now than it was 25 years ago. MOF, its probably better. The difference between now and then---is simple: Technology. Social media. Calls that are missed, or are bad, are more visible today than they were 25 years ago. Hell, even 10 years ago, Its changed the perception of how the game is called.

As for calling it tight early, then not calling those same fouls. I mean, I guess? Again, not all contact is the same. Contact in the post is treated differently, than contact on the perimeter. As I have said hundreds of times, when there is contact you have to decide---What did the contact create? An advantage? Disadvantage? Was the contact incidental? More importantly, was it illegal? WHo created the contact? Did the contact keep an offensive or defensive player from being able to make a play? SOme of you see contact that is a foul, then see contact that you think is a foul, but its not. You then scream, "thats the same thing at the other end". Sometimes you are right. But I'd say a majority of the time, you are not. I say this simply because you haven't been trained to make that decision.

Again, I say this in the nicest way possible. I'm not saying the game doesn't need cleaned up...It does. But for the most part, its not as bad as some of you think. And look ,I don't care what "Joe Blow the reporter, from Bleacher Report says....Or Goodman...Or Bilas. None of those dudes have a clue what it takes to call a game at this level. And none of them to my knowledge, have any training as an official. But for some reason, they all seem to know everything there is to know.

Weird.

We just want consistency.

 

[IUfanBorden]

We just want consistency.

How do you know you are not getting it? I mean do you know how to decipher what contact is the same---what is not? What is legal, what is not? Do you know how to treat(officiate) contact in the paint, opposed to contact on the perimeter? Do you understand the rules of a secondary defender, who is in the arc? Or a secondary defender who is not in the arc? You understand the handcheck, and what criteria we look for when calling it? Do you know when to call illegal use of the hands, when the defender puts two hands on the offense? is it when they have the ball? Or does it matter? Do you trult understand the cylinder rule? Freedom of movement? Allowing a shooter the ability to return to the floor? What if the defender holds his ground, shooter goes up, but then comes down on the defender? is this a foul? If not--why? Remember---the cylinder rule. So careful when answering.
Illegal screens. Where do your feet need to be? Or does that have any bearing? Do you have to give time and distance---If so, when? What if you set an illegal screen, but the defense runs you over? is it still an illegal screen? Or does an illegal screen give you freedom to "run through" a said screen?

I mean I could go on and on. And this is just a peak at what is covered. Consistency doesn't always exist. A lot of that is b/c officials are not employee's of the NCAA. They are indep. contractors. Assigned by former officials, and.or current, active officials who oversee a conference, or multiple conferences. There are over 2,000 D1 officials. From 20-25 diferent regions of the country. All with similar, but different training. So until the NCAA makes basketball officials employee's, sets mandates, etc, etc...Consistency will always be an issue. With that being said though, consistency isn't as bad as you think.

 

[schoonerwest]

How do you know you are not getting it? I mean do you know how to decipher what contact is the same---what is not? What is legal, what is not? Do you know how to treat(officiate) contact in the paint, opposed to contact on the perimeter? Do you understand the rules of a secondary defender, who is in the arc? Or a secondary defender who is not in the arc? You understand the handcheck, and what criteria we look for when calling it? Do you know when to call illegal use of the hands, when the defender puts two hands on the offense? is it when they have the ball? Or does it matter? Do you trult understand the cylinder rule? Freedom of movement? Allowing a shooter the ability to return to the floor? What if the defender holds his ground, shooter goes up, but then comes down on the defender? is this a foul? If not--why? Remember---the cylinder rule. So careful when answering.
Illegal screens. Where do your feet need to be? Or does that have any bearing? Do you have to give time and distance---If so, when? What if you set an illegal screen, but the defense runs you over? is it still an illegal screen? Or does an illegal screen give you freedom to "run through" a said screen?

I mean I could go on and on. And this is just a peak at what is covered. Consistency doesn't always exist. A lot of that is b/c officials are not employee's of the NCAA. They are indep. contractors. Assigned by former officials, and.or current, active officials who oversee a conference, or multiple conferences. There are over 2,000 D1 officials. From 20-25 diferent regions of the country. All with similar, but different training. So until the NCAA makes basketball officials employee's, sets mandates, etc, etc...Consistency will always be an issue. With that being said though, consistency isn't as bad as you think.

Thank you for admitting that the consistency is an issue.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Thank you for admitting that the consistency is an issue.

I never said it wasn't. It just isn't as bad as some you arm chair officials think it is.

 

[schoonerwest]

I never said it wasn't. It just isn't as bad as some you arm chair officials think it is.

I’m not an arm chair official. I barely notice the officials at all. I’m just aware of their issues. And I’m not the only one.

 

[IUfanBorden]

I’m not an arm chair official. I barely notice the officials at all. I’m just aware of their issues. And I’m not the only one.

I listen to those issues when it comes from guys like Curtis Shaw....Not when those "concerns" come from Jay Bilas, or any sports fan with a twitter account.

 

[schoonerwest]

I listen to those issues when it comes from guys like Curtis Shaw....Not when those "concerns" come from Jay Bilas, or any sports fan with a twitter account.

Does Curtis Shaw or anybody ever tell you what the issues are?

 

[IUfanBorden]

Does Curtis Shaw or anybody ever tell you what the issues are?

Absolutely.

 

[schoonerwest]

Absolutely.

What are you guys doing to make it better?

 

[Cat_Incognito]

You don't have to be an official or attend a clinic to know when a ref, or refs are doing a shitty job. JFC

 

[IUfanBorden]

What are you guys doing to make it better?

Take the test....get your NCAA license. Go to a camp. Then clinics. Get hired by a conference, and or an association. You'll then get the same memo's, newsletters and emails I get. You'll get to attend webinar's that go over these such things.

 

[schoonerwest]

Take the test....get your NCAA license. Go to a camp. Then clinics. Get hired by a conference, and or an association. You'll then get the same memo's, newsletters and emails I get. You'll get to attend webinar's that go over these such things.

That sounds like way too much work.

Why don’t you just tell me?

 

[IUfanBorden]

You don't have to be an official or attend a clinic to know when a ref, or refs are doing a shitty job. JFC

Not at all. I am sure you understand every single rule...how to apply. When to apply it. I am sure you understand PCA's. Court responsibility. Who has shot clock coverage...Who has last second shot responsibility. I am sure you understand "last to touch, first to touch". What happens when there is a lane violation, and a shooting violation, on a FT. WHo gets the ball? What happens? What if a player shoots at the wrong goal, yet commits an offensive foul---is it a foul? Does the basket count if fouled, while shooting on the wrong goal?

I mean, I am sure you know all of this, right?

 

[IUfanBorden]

That sounds like way too much work.

Why don’t you just tell me?

Because I cannot.

 

[schoonerwest]

Because I cannot.

Why not? You just don’t feel like explaining it?

Don’t tell me it’s like a code of silence or something.

 

[IUfanBorden]

That sounds like way too much work.

Why don’t you just tell me?

On second thought, why not just ask Jay Bilas? Or any other anchor on sportscenter---Jay Williams, Seth Greenburg, etc, etc...Seemingly, they know.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Why not? You just don’t feel like explaining it?

Don’t tell me it’s like a code of silence or something.

Not a code of silence. I just don't share that type of info. It goes from you, to someone else, to this person, or that person. The information we get in these meetings is private. Information that isn't meant to be shared. Call it what you like. But I'm not losing my job over telling someone on the internet what we discuss, among ourselves, as officials.

 

[schoonerwest]

Not a code of silence. I just don't share that type of info. It goes from you, to someone else, to this person, or that person. The information we get in these meetings is private. Information that isn't meant to be shared. Call it what you like. But I'm not losing my job over telling someone on the internet what we discuss, among ourselves, as officials.

Fair enough.

I still think you should be able to discuss it though. It’s not like it’s sensitive information that you can’t let a rival entity become aware of. It’s sports officiating. The more the public knows about what you all are doing the better it is for you and for us.

 

[Cat_Incognito]

Not at all. I am sure you understand every single rule...how to apply. When to apply it. I am sure you understand PCA's. Court responsibility. Who has shot clock coverage...Who has last second shot responsibility. I am sure you understand "last to touch, first to touch". What happens when there is a lane violation, and a shooting violation, on a FT. WHo gets the ball? What happens? What if a player shoots at the wrong goal, yet commits an offensive foul---is it a foul? Does the basket count if fouled, while shooting on the wrong goal?

I mean, I am sure you know all of this, right?

You act like officiating is quantum physics. No offense, but if you learned how thru a clinic or some weekend seminar, then it's obviously something anybody can do.

Don't be a dick

 

[IUfanBorden]

You act like officiating is quantum physics. No offense, but if you learned how thru a clinic or some weekend seminar, then it's obviously something anybody can do.

Don't be a dick

In other words, "No", to my questions? Why not just say so. its ok to be ignorant of something. We all are.

And me, being a dick? You are telling me how easy it is to officiate a D1 game? I mean I get it---you are trolling----I hope. "A" clininc, or some weekend seminar? You really don't think thats how it works---right? If so---JFC. No wonder BBN is how it is, when it comes to officiating.

Look, honest offer here. You wanna try it? Send a message. I'll hook you up. We can go to Eades camps this summer @ WVU. You can give it the old, "college try". Hell, i even pay your fee.

You game?

 

[IUfanBorden]

Fair enough.

I still think you should be able to discuss it though. It’s not like it’s sensitive information that you can’t let a rival entity become aware of. It’s sports officiating. The more the public knows about what you all are doing the better it is for you and for us.

I mean not to be dick, but really, what business is of yours, or anyone else's? I mean if you are that concerned with the state of officiating, join up. Put in the work. Push your idea's. I mean honestly, I'm not trying to be a dick. But what is discussed in meetings between dudes who put in the worlk, who are away from our families, 4-5 days a week...3/4 months a year, is, well our business. Anyways, most what is discussed, is attainable. You see it every year--Rule changes, POE, etc, etc...As far as what we as officials discuss that we can do better, is well, between us. That's just how it is.

 

[Cat_Incognito]

In other words, "No", to my questions? Why not just say so. its ok to be ignorant of something. We all are.

And me, being a dick? You are telling me how easy it is to officiate a D1 game? I mean I get it---you are trolling----I hope. "A" clininc, or some weekend seminar? You really don't think thats how it works---right? If so---JFC. No wonder BBN is how it is, when it comes to officiating.

Look, honest offer here. You wanna try it? Send a message. I'll hook you up. We can go to Eades camps this summer @ WVU. You can give it the old, "college try". Hell, i even pay your fee.

You game?

Please point to where I said it was easy to officiate a D1 game. I said it would be easy to learn, and I stand by that.

And my point remains. You don't have to be an official to know when officials are missing calls, over-officiating, being inconsistent, etc.. You do know that is some very flawed logic right? That's like saying you have to be a plastic surgeon to know when someone got a bad tits job. Obvious is obvious.

And LOL at your stupid Fight Club act with schooner. Acting like it's classified information. Dude, get over yourself. You probably ref pee wee league football.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Please point to where I said it was easy to officiate a D1 game. I said it would be easy to learn, and I stand by that.

And my point remains. You don't have to be an official to know when officials are missing calls, over-officiating, being inconsistent, etc.. You do know that is some very flawed logic right? That's like saying you have to be a plastic surgeon to know when someone got a bad tits job. Obvious is obvious.

And LOL at your stupid Fight Club act with schooner. Acting like it's classified information. Dude, get over yourself. You probably ref pee wee league football.

Point to where you said it was easy? You mean the part where you said:

You act like officiating is quantum physics. No offense, but if you learned how thru a clinic or some weekend seminar, then it's obviously something anybody can do.

Don't be a dick

Wouldn't this insinuate its easy?

LMAO at your comparison of "plastic surgery results", to that of CBB. I mean, you do realize how God damn stupid of a comparison that is----Right?

Where did I act like it was "classified"? I didn't? I said I choose not to share what we talk about. Meaning, I don't wanna tell your ass.

Actually, i do ref Pee-Wee football. Every Saturday, in Sept/Oct. 2nd grade thru 4th grade. A ****ing blast.

 

[schoonerwest]

I mean not to be dick, but really, what business is of yours, or anyone else's? I mean if you are that concerned with the state of officiating, join up. Put in the work. Push your idea's. I mean honestly, I'm not trying to be a dick. But what is discussed in meetings between dudes who put in the worlk, who are away from our families, 4-5 days a week...3/4 months a year, is, well our business. Anyways, most what is discussed, is attainable. You see it every year--Rule changes, POE, etc, etc...As far as what we as officials discuss that we can do better, is well, between us. That's just how it is.

It’s just weird that you get so defensive over people having legitimate concerns with college officials but when we ask you what do you guys think about it you tell us I can’t speak about it.