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Bill Self has only been to 2 Final Fours?

Its Kansas. They aren't known for tournament success. They only have 1 more title than UofL for gods sake. They just care about conference titles. #bigfishinsmallpond
KU also cares about not sucking for multiple years on end. Hell, all of the other blue bloods have had years where they fall off the map completely in the last 33 years, which KU has not done. Not even close. Duke, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Kentucky have all had absolutely shitty years, if not multiple shitty years. KU has not. Not a single year sonce 1984 where KU fans have thrown in the towel. Even the ‘89 season where we couldn’t play in the tournament for something that isn’t even a violation now, we had a pretty good season.
 
KU also cares about not sucking for multiple years on end. Hell, all of the other blue bloods have had years where they fall off the map completely in the last 33 years, which KU has not done. Not even close. Duke, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Kentucky have all had absolutely shitty years, if not multiple shitty years. KU has not. Not a single year sonce 1984 where KU fans have thrown in the towel. Even the ‘89 season where we couldn’t play in the tournament for something that isn’t even a violation now, we had a pretty good season.

Congrats on being a little better than average most years. A true blue blood doesn't lose a coach to anyone.
 
Any coach who can get his teams to multiple Final Fours and have at least 1 national title to their resume hasn't fallen short. Coach K leading Duke to 12 Final Fours with 5 national titles is effing remarkable on so many levels.

Current Coaches w/Multiple National Championships- Coach K and Coach Williams are in a class of their own.
Coach K- 12 Final Fours and 5 national titles
Roy Williams- 9 Final Fours (5 w/UNC & 4 w/KU) and 3 national titles (all with North Carolina) ***Why I edited it when I had Roy's national championship count right the first time was well...my brain dead mistake.

Current Coaches w/1 National Championship- In terms of national championships bragging rights from fan base to fan base, the below list is a pissing contest. That said, winning 1 national championship is a difficult thing and I think it's safe to say the coaches listed below are the best in the business...next to Coach K & Ole Roy.
Tom Izzo- 7 Final Fours (all with Michigan State) and 1 national title
John Calipari- 6 Final Fours (4 w/Kentucky, 1 w/Memphis & 1 w/UMass) and 1 national title (all with Kentucky)
Jim Boeheim- 5 Final Fours (all with Syracuse) and 1 national title (all with Syracuse)
Bill Self- 2 Final Fours (all with Kansas) and 1 national title (all with Kansas)
Jay Wright- 2 Final Fours (all with Villanova and 1 national title (all with Villanova)

**Rick Pitino- 5 Final Fours (2 w/Louisville, 2 w/Kentucky & 1 w/Providence) and 2 national titles
Even though David Padgett took over at the beginning of this season, Pitino can't be discredited for what he did at Louisville. Those seasons happened and hookers or not, those players busted their asses and won the 2013 national championship. You can take the banner away but what those players did was real.
 
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Any coach who can get his teams to multiple Final Fours and have at least 1 national title to their resume hasn't fallen short. Coach K leading Duke to 12 Final Fours with 5 national titles is effing remarkable on so many levels.

Current Coaches w/Multiple National Championships- Coach K and Coach Williams are in a class of their own.
Coach K- 12 Final Fours and 5 national titles
Roy Williams- 8 Final Fours (4 w/UNC & 4 w/KU) and 3 national titles (all with North Carolina)

Current Coaches w/1 National Championship- In terms of national championships bragging rights from fan base to fan base, the below list is a pissing contest. That said, winning 1 national championship is a difficult thing and I think it's safe to say the coaches listed below are the best in the business...next to Coach K & Ole Roy.
Tom Izzo- 7 Final Fours (all with Michigan State) and 1 national title
John Calipari- 6 Final Fours (4 w/Kentucky, 1 w/Memphis & 1 w/UMass) and 1 national title (all with Kentucky)
Jim Boeheim- 5 Final Fours (all with Syracuse) and 1 national title (all with Syracuse)
Bill Self- 2 Final Fours (all with Kansas) and 1 national title (all with Kansas)
Jay Wright- 2 Final Fours (all with Villanova and 1 national title (all with Villanova)

**Rick Pitino- 5 Final Fours (2 w/Louisville, 2 w/Kentucky & 1 w/Providence) and 2 national titles
Even though David Padgett took over at the beginning of this season, Pitino can't be discredited for what he did at Louisville. Those seasons happened and hookers or not, those players busted their asses and won the 2013 national championship. You can take the banner away but what those players did was real.
Roy has been to 9 Final Fours. 5 with Carolina. 05, 08, 09, 16, 17
 
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Serious tho, how many coaches could have taken over in 2004 and taken Kansas to at least 2 FFs over 15 years?

Beeline
Cal
K
Wright
Kruger
Dixon
Roy
Izzo
Bo Ryan
Calhoun
Pitino
Shaka
Marshall
Donovan
Boeheim

that is 15 just off the top of my head.

Dana Altman
 
Here is the post: there might be some KU homer towards the end but I think for the most part it’s a fair comparison.

Roy Williams, 37 hired by Kansas in 1988.
Went to a final four in 91 and 93 (year 3 & 5 at KU)
Then went 8 years without a final four until 2002 and 2003 (year 14 & 15 at KU)
At age 54, Roy wins his first NCAA title after 17 years coaching. (Bill is currently 54).
Title #2 at age 58 (21 years coaching)
Title #3 at age 66 (29 year coaching).
Currently 67 years old.

Roy went to 4 final fours at KU in 15 years. Won his 1st title after 17 years coaching at 2 bluebloods.


Mike Krzyzewski, age 37 when hired at Duke in 1980.
First Final four in year 6 (11th year coaching)
and followed it with a FF in year 8, 9, 10 (year 13, 14, 15 coaching)
At age 48, 16 years coaching (11 at duke), 1st NCAA title.
2nd title in year 12 at age 49.
Currently 70 years old.

Summary: Coach K won his 1st title after 16 years coaching and it took him 11 years at Duke.

Bill Self, hired by Kansas at age 40. Coached at Oral Roberts, Tulsa and Illinois prior to KU.
Bill Self won his first National championship at age 45 in his 5th season at Kansas (15th season overall but spend 7 seasons at Oral Roberts and Tulsa).

in 14 seasons at Kansas Self has a national championship and 1 final four. Yes he has less FF's than Roy but he has the title at Kansas. Obviously you have to account for Self's time at Oral Roberts and Tulsa but it truly is not as comparable as to Williams start at Kansas. Coach K coached at Army for 5 years so that is much more comparable to to Selfs start.

When Roy/Self/K coached at Blueblood, it took Bill Self the quickest amount of time to win a national title and did so at the youngest age. He is still significantly younger than Coach K and Roy.

Point: Bill Self is essentially right where Roy Williams and Coach K were in their careers. Coach K had more FF's but Roy had no titles at that point. But Coach K is also the GOAT. While Kansas routinely is as talented as 99% of the country, he never has the talent that Coach K and Calipari have. Self never gets to handpick his recruits like Duke/UNC get to. In fact, Self is labeled as an underachiever but really doesnt he do more with less? If he had the recruiting classes that K/Cal had, we would have more Final Fours. Self developed Frank, Tyshawn, T-Rob, Twins, DeVonte, etc etc. I am not saying Self doesnt recruit talent. He does. It is better than anyone not named Duke, UNC and UK. But those programs consistently get 5 top 15 kids while we get 1. As much as I harp on Self for his postseason losses, he is actually well ahead of the game and if you look at the track records of Williams and Krzyzewski, Bill Self is getting close the age that those coaches started to rattle of FF's.

Self is significantly younger and is already so decorated. Recruiting has picked up the last year and the future looks brighter than ever.

You have to think that Coach K will retire at some point and Bill Self will coach at Kansas long after that fact. You have to think Self is on the verge of rattling off some Final Fours.

Williams has coached at Kansas/UNC for 30 years. 3 titles.
Krzyzewski coached at Duke for 37 years: 5 titles.
Self coached at Kansas for 14 years. 1 title.

Ohwow.jpg
 
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Any coach who can get his teams to multiple Final Fours and have at least 1 national title to their resume hasn't fallen short. Coach K leading Duke to 12 Final Fours with 5 national titles is effing remarkable on so many levels.

Current Coaches w/Multiple National Championships- Coach K and Coach Williams are in a class of their own.
Coach K- 12 Final Fours and 5 national titles
Roy Williams- 9 Final Fours (5 w/UNC & 4 w/KU) and 4 national titles (all with North Carolina) ***RECENTLY CORRECTED

Current Coaches w/1 National Championship- In terms of national championships bragging rights from fan base to fan base, the below list is a pissing contest. That said, winning 1 national championship is a difficult thing and I think it's safe to say the coaches listed below are the best in the business...next to Coach K & Ole Roy.
Tom Izzo- 7 Final Fours (all with Michigan State) and 1 national title
John Calipari- 6 Final Fours (4 w/Kentucky, 1 w/Memphis & 1 w/UMass) and 1 national title (all with Kentucky)
Jim Boeheim- 5 Final Fours (all with Syracuse) and 1 national title (all with Syracuse)
Bill Self- 2 Final Fours (all with Kansas) and 1 national title (all with Kansas)
Jay Wright- 2 Final Fours (all with Villanova and 1 national title (all with Villanova)

**Rick Pitino- 5 Final Fours (2 w/Louisville, 2 w/Kentucky & 1 w/Providence) and 2 national titles
Even though David Padgett took over at the beginning of this season, Pitino can't be discredited for what he did at Louisville. Those seasons happened and hookers or not, those players busted their asses and won the 2013 national championship. You can take the banner away but what those players did was real.
Roy has won 3 NCs, not 4. 05, 09 & 17.
 
Congrats on being a little better than average most years. A true blue blood doesn't lose a coach to anyone.
True blue bloods have the very deepest of roots. KU has the deepest. For sake of conversation, how far back does a team have to go to begin the qualification of being a blue blood? Once that is established what other criteria should be established? Coaching trees, conference titles, post season wins prior to the ridiculous expansion to 64+ teams, NIT wins when it was a major event, tradition etc.? Do the blue blood teams reside in a "basketball" state such as Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, and North Carolina? These are states where fans live and breathe basketball at all levels. Consistency of excellence? Let's just not water down the term blue blood. Also, can a team lose that status? My answer is no. Indiana is IMO a true blue blood program. Yet it has fallen on some hard times lately as far as post season is concerned, like the other true blue bloods their fans remain fervent.
 
Williams (Age 67) has coached at Kansas/UNC for 30 years. 3 titles.

Krzyzewski (age 72) coached at Duke for 37 years: 5 titles.

Self (age 55) coached at Kansas for 14 years. 1 title.

Self has some choke jobs for sure. But he is way younger than those coaches. He is also one of the youngest coaches in CBB that has been mentioned in this thread. Self won a title at Kansas at age 45. Roy couldn’t win one at Kansas and won his first title at age 54.

Hard to compare Self to those guys right now.
 
I’m not sure that accurate actually now that I think about it. Surely the unc win we didn’t have a season low. And the OT loss to GA tech probably wasn’t either.

Maybe it’s 5 of 7
Just looked it up; you're correct it's five of seven - with it tying a season-low in '08.

That's a pretty crazy stat, although part of it can be attributed to theoretically playing better defenses at that point. But still wild.
 
FF Appearances Since 2004

Roy Williams, 5 (UNC)
John Calipari, 5 (Memphis/UK)
Mike Krzyzewski, 4 (Duke)
Tom Izzo, 4 (Michigan State)
Billy Donovan, 3 (Florida)
Rick Pitino, 3 (Louisville)
Jim Calhoun, 3 (UConn)
Ben Howland, 3 (UCLA)
Jim Boeheim, 2 (Syracuse)
Bill Self, 2 (Kansas)
Jay Wright, 2 (Villanova)
Thad Matta, 2 (Ohio State)
Bo Ryan, 2 (Wisconsin)
Brad Stevens, 2 (Butler)
 
FF Appearances Since 2004

Roy Williams, 5 (UNC)
John Calipari, 5 (Memphis/UK)
Mike Krzyzewski, 4 (Duke)
Tom Izzo, 4 (Michigan State)
Billy Donovan, 3 (Florida)
Rick Pitino, 3 (Louisville)
Jim Calhoun, 3 (UConn)
Ben Howland, 3 (UCLA)
Jim Boeheim, 2 (Syracuse)
Bill Self, 2 (Kansas)
Jay Wright, 2 (Villanova)
Thad Matta, 2 (Ohio State)
Bo Ryan, 2 (Wisconsin)
Brad Stevens, 2 (Butler)
Calipari only has 4 Final 4 appearances. He never went to a Final 4 with Memphis.
Pitino only has 1.
 
Williams (Age 67) has coached at Kansas/UNC for 30 years. 3 titles.

Krzyzewski (age 72) coached at Duke for 37 years: 5 titles.

Self (age 55) coached at Kansas for 14 years. 1 title.

Self has some choke jobs for sure. But he is way younger than those coaches. He is also one of the youngest coaches in CBB that has been mentioned in this thread. Self won a title at Kansas at age 45. Roy couldn’t win one at Kansas and won his first title at age 54.

Hard to compare Self to those guys right now.

K is 71
 
True blue bloods have the very deepest of roots. KU has the deepest. For sake of conversation, how far back does a team have to go to begin the qualification of being a blue blood? Once that is established what other criteria should be established? Coaching trees, conference titles, post season wins prior to the ridiculous expansion to 64+ teams, NIT wins when it was a major event, tradition etc.? Do the blue blood teams reside in a "basketball" state such as Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, and North Carolina? These are states where fans live and breathe basketball at all levels. Consistency of excellence? Let's just not water down the term blue blood. Also, can a team lose that status? My answer is no. Indiana is IMO a true blue blood program. Yet it has fallen on some hard times lately as far as post season is concerned, like the other true blue bloods their fans remain fervent.

waka-OK.gif
 
Oregon 2017: KU had more talent
Nova 2016: KU had slightly more talent but it is a push a worst.
Wichita 2015: KU had more talent
Stanford 2014: KU had much more talent
Kentucky 2012: Great coaching job, better teams with more talent and eventually lost to a very talented team.
VCU 2011: LOL
Northern Iowa 2010: LOOOOLOOL
MSU 2009: MSU was maybe slightly more talented but it was close.
2008: Title
2007: Lost as 1 seed in EE but UCLA was just as talented
2006: Bradley, no comment
2005: bucknell, no comment

You act like he was trotting out MAC level talent onto the court every year. He losese to much less talented teams every year except for a year here or there.

Oregon 2017: Not much of a talent difference. And KU's issue last year was depth(like this year). If we stayed out of foul trouble, we were great, but when we were in foul trouble we struggled. Josh Jackson(our best defender) picked up his 2nd foul within like 2 or 3 minutes and had to sit(and when he came back in, he played not to foul). We struggled to defend early, and Oregon also hit something like 15 or 16 out of 17 shots at one point including a couple of banked threes. They got a big lead and that's when our own shooting got tight(we were shooting fine before that). Still, we got to within 3 points at the end, but Oregon once again, hit a shot with a second left on the shot clock with a guy breathing down his neck. We had some shit luck there.

Nova 2016: Talent was a push, and Nova was the hottest team in the country. Though I do think that KU wins it all if they win this game. Still, it went down to the wire, and Nova hit a clutch three late, and imo if they miss that three, KU wins the game. That's just the way it goes.

Wichita 2015: KU had more overall talent, but Wichita State was criminally underseeded and playing with a chip on their shoulder. They made the final four the year before. This was an unfair matchup for KU, and I still hate the tourney committee for it.

Stanford 2014: KU didn't have much more talent. If we have Joel Embiid, we win that game easy I think. But once we lost him, we went from a legit top 10 team to a very pedestrian team. We lost our only legit big man and had to play a team that had two seven footers. This was the worst possible matchup we could have had.

Michigan 2013: Michigan played in the national title game, so it's not like they weren't a very good team. Yet even so, we led the game comfortably for 35 minutes until Trey Burke went Stephen Curry on us. Not much we could have done about that. We even guarded him, and he stepped back and hit them with a hand in his face. He tied the game with a shot from at least 10 feet behind the line, or we win that game. This was just shit luck.

Kentucky 2012: Didn't expect much from this team. They played beyond expectations and ran into a juggernaut UK team in the title game. Played as good as they could.

VCU 2011: This was a big loss. But people seem to forget that this team made the Final Four. They upset a lot of teams. They had a habit of upsetting teams in the tourney. Criminally underseeded. Still, we should have won this game.

Northern Iowa 2010: Northern Iowa was a good team, but this was still a bad loss.

MSU 2009: MSU was the better team. Still, KU had them down with under 2 minutes left, but missed a couple of FTs late. But we played very well in this game. Just lost to a better team.

2008: Title
2007: Lost to the 2 seed IN CALIFORNIA. The tourney committee did us no favors there.
2006: No comment. This was a truly bad upset.
2005: We were pretty banged up in that game with some of our best players hindered by injuries. Still should have won that game though. This was a terrible loss.
2004: Took GT to overtime in the Elite Eight, as a 4 seed. Played over our seed here. Self's teams tend to perform better in March when they have fewer expectations(less pressure).

Yeah, we've lost some games we shouldn't have lost, but we haven't had any truly embarassing upsets for quite a while(hopefully not jinxing us here). We do play tight in the Elite Eight though. I also think we've had more than our share of bad luck go against us. It seems to me that we've had an insane # of teams hitting last second shots against us or shooting 95% from the FT line. I guess it's only fair that the title we won in that time came after hitting a last second three coupled with a couple of missed FTs by Memphis. But we've certainly had more of this luck go AGAINST us.
 
Shaka is super overrated, IMO.

He's 2-5 in the NCAA Tournament since that 2011 Final Four run. And in his last four appearances he's 1-4 with no worse than a 7-seed (5, 5, 6, 7).
It's almost like he performed better when he didn't have to deal with pressure. His teams from 2011 and prior upset a lot of teams. Once they were on the radar though, he started to struggle.
 
He can't handle the pressure in the E8. All of his teams except the 2012 team played extremely tightin the E8 including the 2008 team. He's the common denominator.

In 2004, they played rather well and went into OT, nearly getting to the Final Four as a 4 seed(and an overrated 4 seed). His teams tend to play well in games they're not expected to win.
 
In 2004, they played rather well and went into OT, nearly getting to the Final Four as a 4 seed(and an overrated 4 seed). His teams tend to play well in games they're not expected to win.
What are your expectations for KU in the NCAAs this year? I see them losing in the Elite 8 again to MSU, Duke or Xavier in the 2nd round.
 
What are your expectations for KU in the NCAAs this year? I see them losing in the Elite 8 again to MSU, Duke or Xavier in the 2nd round.
If we make it past the E8, this will one of Self’s best coaching jobs to date. This is by far the worst team he’s had while at Kansas, yet we’re in line to win our 14th straight conference title, and playing for a #1 overall seed. I’m not convinced we have a future pro on this team, and we’re paper thin. I wouldn’t be surprised if we flame out early (again).
 
If we make it past the E8, this will one of Self’s best coaching jobs to date. This is by far the worst team he’s had while at Kansas, yet we’re in line to win our 14th straight conference title, and playing for a #1 overall seed. I’m not convinced we have a future pro on this team, and we’re paper thin. I wouldn’t be surprised if we flame out early (again).

I think you'll be a tough match up for most everyone running that 4 guard line up. All depends if Bookie can stay on the floor and how well Lightfoot and Desousa plays.
 
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What are your expectations for KU in the NCAAs this year? I see them losing in the Elite 8 again to MSU, Duke or Xavier in the 2nd round.

I will be content with a S16. Now that expectation could change depending on who we might play in the S16 if we make it that far. To me I still feel this is the worse KU team since the 1999 and 2000 KU teams. I will literally be shaking my head (and be absolutely ecstatic) if this KU team makes the F4 after seeing all these great KU teams fall short.
 
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What are your expectations for KU in the NCAAs this year? I see them losing in the Elite 8 again to MSU, Duke or Xavier in the 2nd round.
I couldn't tell you. They could lose their second game or win it all. It depends a lot on draw. If we play a top tier team, I'd rather play a DUKE than an MSU, just because although those teams may be pretty equal, MSU plays the type of physical defense that can throw us off, since we're a jump shooting team. Against DUKE, we'd have a much better chance of getting into a groove shooting the ball. OU helped us out with their lack of defense the other night, but we've had more 100+ point games this year than I can ever remember. When we're hot, we're very hot and nobody's beating us. But when we struggle shooting the ball, especially if Dok goes out with foul trouble, we become very pedestrian.
 
An Elite Eight loss would be a successful season in my opinion.

Next year should be Final Four. KU is absolutely loaded.
 
Congrats on being a little better than average most years. A true blue blood doesn't lose a coach to anyone.

KU has had the least number of coaches of all the blue bloods.

A true blue blood doesn't hire dogshit coaches and then fire them a couple years later.
 
If not for the Embiid/Azubuike injuries and a flukey last minute vs Michigan, Self's tourney narrative is probably a lot different.

I'd be surprised if the law of averages doesn't balance things out. Only question is if he'll coach long enough to pile up some final fours.
 
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KU has had the least number of coaches of all the blue bloods.

A true blue blood doesn't hire dogshit coaches and then fire them a couple years later.

Maybe you should, then you'd have more than 3 titles. Complacency.
 
Its Kansas. They aren't known for tournament success. They only have 1 more title than UofL for gods sake. They just care about conference titles. #bigfishinsmallpond

Ahem, 2 more titles.
 
I couldn't tell you. They could lose their second game or win it all. It depends a lot on draw. If we play a top tier team, I'd rather play a DUKE than an MSU, just because although those teams may be pretty equal, MSU plays the type of physical defense that can throw us off, since we're a jump shooting team. Against DUKE, we'd have a much better chance of getting into a groove shooting the ball. OU helped us out with their lack of defense the other night, but we've had more 100+ point games this year than I can ever remember. When we're hot, we're very hot and nobody's beating us. But when we struggle shooting the ball, especially if Dok goes out with foul trouble, we become very pedestrian.
Why did you capitalize Duke not once but twice?
 
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