Bill Self has only been to 2 Final Fours?
- Thread starter Shoelace32
- Start date
Oh good an original topic of discussion.
Serious tho, how many coaches could have taken over in 2004 and taken Kansas to at least 2 FFs over 15 years?
Beeline
Cal
K
Wright
Kruger
Dixon
Roy
Izzo
Bo Ryan
Calhoun
Pitino
Shaka
Marshall
Donovan
Boeheim
that is 15 just off the top of my head.
Beeline
Cal
K
Wright
Kruger
Dixon
Roy
Izzo
Bo Ryan
Calhoun
Pitino
Shaka
Marshall
Donovan
Boeheim
that is 15 just off the top of my head.
I think the biggest factor in his elite 8 struggle is the quick turnaround. When Self has a long time to prepare, such as for the Sweet 16, he generally has a great gameplan. When he only has a day to prepare for an unfamiliar team with similar or better talent than his own, his gameplan isn't as stout and it becomes closer to a coin flip.
Let's also not forget that a lot of these teams that were considered slam dunk final four teams were not so highly regarded early in the season. They developed that perception and expectation due to....his coaching. When an overachieving team meets an underachiever with more talent, often the more talented team will prevail in a high stakes game.
Let's also not forget that a lot of these teams that were considered slam dunk final four teams were not so highly regarded early in the season. They developed that perception and expectation due to....his coaching. When an overachieving team meets an underachiever with more talent, often the more talented team will prevail in a high stakes game.
Oregon 2017: KU had more talent
Nova 2016: KU had slightly more talent but it is a push a worst.
Wichita 2015: KU had more talent
Stanford 2014: KU had much more talent
Kentucky 2012: Great coaching job, better teams with more talent and eventually lost to a very talented team.
VCU 2011: LOL
Northern Iowa 2010: LOOOOLOOL
MSU 2009: MSU was maybe slightly more talented but it was close.
2008: Title
2007: Lost as 1 seed in EE but UCLA was just as talented
2006: Bradley, no comment
2005: bucknell, no comment
You act like he was trotting out MAC level talent onto the court every year. He losese to much less talented teams every year except for a year here or there.
2 Final Fours and a Natty is nothing to sneeze at.
Yep. Pretty good success rate when he gets to the Final Four.
Mich St was definitely the better roster that year. Nova was more talented. UCLA was more talented. Kentucky way more talented. Oregon had just as much if not more talent. They sure as hell looked like the team with more raw talent that night. KU had NOTHING inside. Even Wich St is debatable. That KU team was Self's weakest and at that point had an ailing Ellis, suspended Alexander and its best shooter injured. Wichita was a far more experienced and probably better team at that point.
I'm not saying that Self achieved the expected outcome every time. But we are talking about March Madness here. The supposed GOAT Coach K has lost a sh*tload of times in early rounds, always with a big talent advantage.
Bottom line: Self is clearly a helluva coach who has been a bit snakebitten in the tourney. He consistently dominates familiar opponents and virtually always has a good gameplan when given decent prep time, and he's won something like 90% of games vs top 5 teams. These aren't marks of a poor or average coach.
Well he got farther than Roy did in 15 years.
The common denominator is pressure.
The common denominator is pressure.
Its Kansas. They aren't known for tournament success. They only have 1 more title than UofL for gods sake. They just care about conference titles. #bigfishinsmallpond
Duke's underachieved this century too for sure but at least they have 4 Finals 4s and 3 Natties to show for it.
Self sucks coaching in the Big Dance man, just own it.
Hey did you guys know Kansas hangs Helms banners?
He’ll get a few more before he’s done. But yea, he’s should probably have more than 2 at this point in his career.
I'm curious...is it your opinion that Roy sucked in the Big Dance for almost 20 years, then magically figured it out? Or could it have been law of averages?
Oh **** off you ****ing twat.You'rehating onsome you'rejealous of.
Coaching for 40 years at a top school helps.
If KU had Butler and '10 Duke had '12 Kentucky, they'd be on about the same pace.
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Shaka is super overrated, IMO.
He's 2-5 in the NCAA Tournament since that 2011 Final Four run. And in his last four appearances he's 1-4 with no worse than a 7-seed (5, 5, 6, 7).
Made his entire career off of a single tourney run. Never even won a conference title at VCU
I’ll try and dig up a thread I posted awhile back.
Self is like 12 years and 16 years younger than Roy Williams and Coach K. At age 55 Self is basically right where Roy Williams and Coach K were in their career success when Roy/K were 55.
Self right now is at the age when Roy Williams won his first title. However Self won a title much earlier than Roy Williams did in their respective careers. Self also won it at Kansas which is something Roy williams could not.
Self has definitely underachieved several times in the tourney but part of that is due to the expectations he built by developing a team. The next 10 years is going to differentiate them. My money is on Self.
Self is like 12 years and 16 years younger than Roy Williams and Coach K. At age 55 Self is basically right where Roy Williams and Coach K were in their career success when Roy/K were 55.
Self right now is at the age when Roy Williams won his first title. However Self won a title much earlier than Roy Williams did in their respective careers. Self also won it at Kansas which is something Roy williams could not.
Self has definitely underachieved several times in the tourney but part of that is due to the expectations he built by developing a team. The next 10 years is going to differentiate them. My money is on Self.
Here is the post: there might be some KU homer towards the end but I think for the most part it’s a fair comparison.
Roy Williams, 37 hired by Kansas in 1988.
Went to a final four in 91 and 93 (year 3 & 5 at KU)
Then went 8 years without a final four until 2002 and 2003 (year 14 & 15 at KU)
At age 54, Roy wins his first NCAA title after 17 years coaching. (Bill is currently 54).
Title #2 at age 58 (21 years coaching)
Title #3 at age 66 (29 year coaching).
Currently 67 years old.
Roy went to 4 final fours at KU in 15 years. Won his 1st title after 17 years coaching at 2 bluebloods.
Mike Krzyzewski, age 37 when hired at Duke in 1980.
First Final four in year 6 (11th year coaching)
and followed it with a FF in year 8, 9, 10 (year 13, 14, 15 coaching)
At age 48, 16 years coaching (11 at duke), 1st NCAA title.
2nd title in year 12 at age 49.
Currently 70 years old.
Summary: Coach K won his 1st title after 16 years coaching and it took him 11 years at Duke.
Bill Self, hired by Kansas at age 40. Coached at Oral Roberts, Tulsa and Illinois prior to KU.
Bill Self won his first National championship at age 45 in his 5th season at Kansas (15th season overall but spend 7 seasons at Oral Roberts and Tulsa).
in 14 seasons at Kansas Self has a national championship and 1 final four. Yes he has less FF's than Roy but he has the title at Kansas. Obviously you have to account for Self's time at Oral Roberts and Tulsa but it truly is not as comparable as to Williams start at Kansas. Coach K coached at Army for 5 years so that is much more comparable to to Selfs start.
When Roy/Self/K coached at Blueblood, it took Bill Self the quickest amount of time to win a national title and did so at the youngest age. He is still significantly younger than Coach K and Roy.
Point: Bill Self is essentially right where Roy Williams and Coach K were in their careers. Coach K had more FF's but Roy had no titles at that point. But Coach K is also the GOAT. While Kansas routinely is as talented as 99% of the country, he never has the talent that Coach K and Calipari have. Self never gets to handpick his recruits like Duke/UNC get to. In fact, Self is labeled as an underachiever but really doesnt he do more with less? If he had the recruiting classes that K/Cal had, we would have more Final Fours. Self developed Frank, Tyshawn, T-Rob, Twins, DeVonte, etc etc. I am not saying Self doesnt recruit talent. He does. It is better than anyone not named Duke, UNC and UK. But those programs consistently get 5 top 15 kids while we get 1. As much as I harp on Self for his postseason losses, he is actually well ahead of the game and if you look at the track records of Williams and Krzyzewski, Bill Self is getting close the age that those coaches started to rattle of FF's.
Self is significantly younger and is already so decorated. Recruiting has picked up the last year and the future looks brighter than ever.
You have to think that Coach K will retire at some point and Bill Self will coach at Kansas long after that fact. You have to think Self is on the verge of rattling off some Final Fours.
Williams has coached at Kansas/UNC for 30 years. 3 titles.
Krzyzewski coached at Duke for 37 years: 5 titles.
Self coached at Kansas for 14 years. 1 title.
Roy Williams, 37 hired by Kansas in 1988.
Went to a final four in 91 and 93 (year 3 & 5 at KU)
Then went 8 years without a final four until 2002 and 2003 (year 14 & 15 at KU)
At age 54, Roy wins his first NCAA title after 17 years coaching. (Bill is currently 54).
Title #2 at age 58 (21 years coaching)
Title #3 at age 66 (29 year coaching).
Currently 67 years old.
Roy went to 4 final fours at KU in 15 years. Won his 1st title after 17 years coaching at 2 bluebloods.
Mike Krzyzewski, age 37 when hired at Duke in 1980.
First Final four in year 6 (11th year coaching)
and followed it with a FF in year 8, 9, 10 (year 13, 14, 15 coaching)
At age 48, 16 years coaching (11 at duke), 1st NCAA title.
2nd title in year 12 at age 49.
Currently 70 years old.
Summary: Coach K won his 1st title after 16 years coaching and it took him 11 years at Duke.
Bill Self, hired by Kansas at age 40. Coached at Oral Roberts, Tulsa and Illinois prior to KU.
Bill Self won his first National championship at age 45 in his 5th season at Kansas (15th season overall but spend 7 seasons at Oral Roberts and Tulsa).
in 14 seasons at Kansas Self has a national championship and 1 final four. Yes he has less FF's than Roy but he has the title at Kansas. Obviously you have to account for Self's time at Oral Roberts and Tulsa but it truly is not as comparable as to Williams start at Kansas. Coach K coached at Army for 5 years so that is much more comparable to to Selfs start.
When Roy/Self/K coached at Blueblood, it took Bill Self the quickest amount of time to win a national title and did so at the youngest age. He is still significantly younger than Coach K and Roy.
Point: Bill Self is essentially right where Roy Williams and Coach K were in their careers. Coach K had more FF's but Roy had no titles at that point. But Coach K is also the GOAT. While Kansas routinely is as talented as 99% of the country, he never has the talent that Coach K and Calipari have. Self never gets to handpick his recruits like Duke/UNC get to. In fact, Self is labeled as an underachiever but really doesnt he do more with less? If he had the recruiting classes that K/Cal had, we would have more Final Fours. Self developed Frank, Tyshawn, T-Rob, Twins, DeVonte, etc etc. I am not saying Self doesnt recruit talent. He does. It is better than anyone not named Duke, UNC and UK. But those programs consistently get 5 top 15 kids while we get 1. As much as I harp on Self for his postseason losses, he is actually well ahead of the game and if you look at the track records of Williams and Krzyzewski, Bill Self is getting close the age that those coaches started to rattle of FF's.
Self is significantly younger and is already so decorated. Recruiting has picked up the last year and the future looks brighter than ever.
You have to think that Coach K will retire at some point and Bill Self will coach at Kansas long after that fact. You have to think Self is on the verge of rattling off some Final Fours.
Williams has coached at Kansas/UNC for 30 years. 3 titles.
Krzyzewski coached at Duke for 37 years: 5 titles.
Self coached at Kansas for 14 years. 1 title.
Self is a choke artist. Total fvcking pussy in the tournament.
In 6 of his 7 elite 8 games at ku the team had a season low in points. Look it up.
I’m not sure that accurate actually now that I think about it. Surely the unc win we didn’t have a season low. And the OT loss to GA tech probably wasn’t either.
Maybe it’s 5 of 7
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