Who is the G.O.A.T?

[IUfanBorden]

So are you being obtuse on purpose or? NBA playoffs are seeded by record. Ergo you play your way into your bracket. College basketball tournament is decided by a committee. So humans pick where teams end up. Yes it's a meaningful difference and there is no comparison.




That Michael Jordan was retired at 36 years old? Go look at his basketball reference page It's right there.

LeBron won a title at 35 too btw.


I don't care that you think Jordan is better. That's a perfectly fine opinion. Saying it's not close is false. That was my only argument.

Your simply not getting it.....You argue Duke had an easier path to the FF. I argued LeBron had an easier path to the NBA Finals. The context is the same, even if the formula is different. You only draw circles b/c it fits one narrative you like, but not the other. Yes the seeding is decided by a committee---but its predicated on your record, SOS, etc, etc...Its not like the committee is handing out 2 seeds to 17-15 teams..

Michael did retire at 36. But you are acting as if he done so, b/c he couldn't perform. Jordan won an NBA title, Reg season MVP, NBA Finals MVP.. Led the league in scoring(28ppg)..made his 9th All NBA defensive 1st team...So agaon, what is your point? I mean you do realize that at 40 years old, some 3 years removed from tne NBA, that he averaged 20ppg---right? Also at 40, he averaged 20ppg, 6rpg, 3.8apg and 1.5 steals..

Again, not sure what your reasoning is of saying Jordan retired. So what. He had nuttin' else to prove. Then got the itch, again---Came in at 40, and became the first 40 year old to score 43 or more points in an NBA game.

 

[Demarcus Kidd-Miller]

Why do people always say LeBron took multiple shitty teams to the Finals? It was ONE team, and he got swept when he got there. The rest of the Finals LeBron has made have been on stacked teams with multiple All-Star players. He ran through the shittiest Eastern Conference we've ever seen to get there most years.

Dragging that shitty CLE team was impressive. Reverse sweeping GSW was impressive. But a GOAT doesn't average 17 points in a Finals and lose with 2 All-Star/HOF teammates. A GOAT doesn't lose to a bunch of dinosaurs that are about to retire with 2 All-Star/HOF teammates. If he was really the GOAT, then he should've never lost to Dallas, San Antonio (the second time), or GSW the year without KD. A GOAT doesn't lose those series, especially with what he had on his teams. I think LBJ is given a pass for his failures to easily and excuses get made for why he didn't win.

 

[AWilli6995]

I disagree, I think it’s 1a-1b. Jordan had some meh teams his first few years, but once they starting building that roster in the late 80s early 90s, he had a squad of hall of famers around him, similar to Lebron when he joined Miami. But it’s one of those agree to disagree situations that will be debated forever. One thing Jordan and Kobe had that Lebron doesn’t really have is the “curse” Jordan mentioned, where it’s a “win at all costs” and Lebron sort of has that, but doesn’t. That’s what I think separates the two.

It’s not close. I said this before LBJ went to sleep against Dallas in the finals with Bosch and Wade. That right there makes it not close. Also no points are given when you lose in the finals, something MJ hasn’t ever done.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

That finals showed what a disruptive big can do on the defensive end…

Nothing against Miami and LeBron but Tyson Chandler showed who he was in that Finals
Always a good big but was never given credit.

Plus Dirk is up there when we start talking about Top 20/25 players
His offensive game at that size was unreal. Almost unstoppable because he was so tall

 

[JimboBBN]

Why do people always say LeBron took multiple shitty teams to the Finals? It was ONE team, and he got swept when he got there. The rest of the Finals LeBron has made have been on stacked teams with multiple All-Star players. He ran through the shittiest Eastern Conference we've ever seen to get there most years.

Dragging that shitty CLE team was impressive. Reverse sweeping GSW was impressive. But a GOAT doesn't average 17 points in a Finals and lose with 2 All-Star/HOF teammates. A GOAT doesn't lose to a bunch of dinosaurs that are about to retire with 2 All-Star/HOF teammates. If he was really the GOAT, then he should've never lost to Dallas, San Antonio (the second time), or GSW the year without KD. A GOAT doesn't lose those series, especially with what he had on his teams. I think LBJ is given a pass for his failures to easily and excuses get made for why he didn't win.

The LeBron "never has help" argument is absolutely BS and proven untrue. Look at the amount of all stars he's played with in his career. Its honestly absurd. And you know he gets to hand pick who he wants, too.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

 

[GhostOf301]

If LeBitch played for Duke there wouldn't even be a debate for some of these James thumpers. He'd be an overrated, flopping drama queen. It is an argument when you discuss his undeniable talent. But his on the court antics and his habit of blaming other people when he doesn't win disqualify him from GOAT status. IMO

 

[Big_Blue79]

Who you have to beat to get somewhere is just as relevant as getting there. Jordan lost to Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish and company three straight years...Celtics won 2 NBA titles, lost ion the Finals during that stretch....THEN, his Bulls teams lost to the Pistons, with Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Lambier, Vinnie Johnson, in three straight seasons---They won titles in 2 of those 3. So in his first what, 6 seasons, Jordan faced teams that won 4 NBA titles, losing twice in the Finals.

So thats a total of 6 NBA finals teams....4 NBA titles... 6 or 7 HOF'ers, before the Finals.

LeBron beat Detroit, led by...Ummm, Chauncey Billups, in 2007.

In 2014/15 Clev beat the Hawks, led by Paul Milsap to reach the Finals..
In 2015/16 they beat the Raptors, led by....I dunno, Derozan? Although they did have that great rally vs Golden State..
2017./18 beat Boston, led by I guess Kyrie...

Are you really gonna dismiss the two paths?

"Who you have to beat," but then you compare who the Bulls lost to (i.e. the Celtics and Pistons) and who the Cavs beat without any other context? Who did the Bulls beat those years? What happened when the Cavs went up against all-time teams (1-3 in the Finals)? Why limit this to just the Cavs?

Moreover, the information you cherry-picked isn't even correct, and what is correct is misleading. The Bulls lost to the Celtics in 1986 (swept as an 8 seed), and 1987 (swept as an 8 seed), not 3 years in a row. And since they lost as an 8 seed, I don't think we need to scrutinize their path too much, no? Or are we pretending that if that 1986 Celtics team was instead the 2015 Hawks that the Bulls were running amok through the East and to the Finals? (Note that in 1985 the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round.)

You're a bit closer re: the Pistons. The Bulls lost to the Pistons (3 seed to 2 seed Pistons) in 5 in the second round in 1988, then again in 1989 in 6 (as a 6 seed to the 1 seed Pistons), and again in 1990 (as a 3 seed to the 1 seed Pistons). So the Bulls managed to get a 3 seed as their best mark and the Pistons, a clearly better team at the time, had home court each time. Seems... about what you'd expect going in.

It can be true that MJ is the best player of all-time, Lebron is the second best player all-time, and there's no reason to make bad arguments in favor of either player.

Edit: a lot is made of Lebron's NBA Final's record, but his teams were favored only three times: 2011 (lost), 2013 (won), and 2020 (won). His team was an underdog every other time, just like Jordan's teams that lost to the Pistons were. In contrast, the Jordan Bulls were betting favorites each appearance, even the 2 without home court advantage (1993 Suns, 1998 Jazz). https://www.sportscasting.com/heres...s-records-of-michael-jordan-and-lebron-james/

 

[Big_Blue79]

If LeBitch played for Duke there wouldn't even be a debate for some of these James thumpers. He'd be an overrated, flopping drama queen. It is an argument when you discuss his undeniable talent. But his on the court antics and his habit of blaming other people when he doesn't win disqualify him from GOAT status. IMO

You started out strong with "If," but then it immediately turned to whining. 0/10, would not read again.

 

[GhostOf301]

You started out strong with "If," but then it immediately turned to whining. 0/10, would not read again.

Cool.

 

[JimboBBN]

Not the greatest metric by any means, but I do think this is somewhat telling. Obviously some of these guys don't have the stats or accolades that Jordan and LeBron do, but I think it does a good job when evaluating who actually was the better player. Jordan's best was better than LeBron's best.

Top 10 Players With The Highest PER In NBA History

It's one thing to be good, and another completely different thing is to be efficient. Coaches would much rather have a guy who makes the most of his minutes

fadeawayworld.net

 

[IUfanBorden]

"Who you have to beat," but then you compare who the Bulls lost to (i.e. the Celtics and Pistons) and who the Cavs beat without any other context? Who did the Bulls beat those years? What happened when the Cavs went up against all-time teams (1-3 in the Finals)? Why limit this to just the Cavs?

Moreover, the information you cherry-picked isn't even correct, and what is correct is misleading. The Bulls lost to the Celtics in 1986 (swept as an 8 seed), and 1987 (swept as an 8 seed), not 3 years in a row. And since they lost as an 8 seed, I don't think we need to scrutinize their path too much, no? Or are we pretending that if that 1986 Celtics team was instead the 2015 Hawks that the Bulls were running amok through the East and to the Finals? (Note that in 1985 the Bulls lost to the Bucks in the first round.)

You're a bit closer re: the Pistons. The Bulls lost to the Pistons (3 seed to 2 seed Pistons) in 5 in the second round in 1988, then again in 1989 in 6 (as a 6 seed to the 1 seed Pistons), and again in 1990 (as a 3 seed to the 1 seed Pistons). So the Bulls managed to get a 3 seed as their best mark and the Pistons, a clearly better team at the time, had home court each time. Seems... about what you'd expect going in.

It can be true that MJ is the best player of all-time, Lebron is the second best player all-time, and there's no reason to make bad arguments in favor of either player.

Edit: a lot is made of Lebron's NBA Final's record, but his teams were favored only three times: 2011 (lost), 2013 (won), and 2020 (won). His team was an underdog every other time, just like Jordan's teams that lost to the Pistons were. In contrast, the Jordan Bulls were betting favorites each appearance, even the 2 without home court advantage (1993 Suns, 1998 Jazz). https://www.sportscasting.com/heres...s-records-of-michael-jordan-and-lebron-james/

My bad---I said three, instead of 2....You got me.

Bottom line---LeBron ran through a very, very weak Eastern Conference.

Bad argument? I wasn't giving such. I just don't think you understood it. I'm not saying the Bulls early in MJ's career lost b/c thye were a good team, pitted vs a better team. I am saying that those LeBron teams didn't have to face a team remotely close to the calibe that the Bulls did----regardless of seed.

At the end of the day, if I had to pick one dude, for one game---and the choice was MJ or LeBron, its Mike...And easily.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Always been interested in what would have happened after the 1994-1995 season if the Bulls didn’t bring in Dennis Rodman

Would the legacy of MJ change?

Would they have won another NBA Title

I do think MJ deserves credit for dealing with Rodman. More than that understanding the need for Rodman.

Back to my point about players understanding the need for others. The difference between a winner and a loser.

MJ wanted to win more than others.
Dealt with two weirdos
Pippen might be an even bigger weirdo than Rodman.
We all know how much of a weirdo Rodman was.

I think the original Bulls team made a mistake when they gotten rid of Charles Oakley.
Most people don’t remember but Oakley played for the Bulls
Something MJ learned as well

They brought in Horace Grant. Truthfully think they might have earlier with Oakley
Pippen emergence was the second key part.

The myth of MJ is much larger than the truth.
Nothing wrong with that.
The game needs stars. Needs players to sell

But it sometimes hurts the game itself. Like I have said before. I was around basketball before MJ, during MJ and after MJ

At times I didn’t like how kids perceive the man.
Be like Mike ruined basketball for some

I actually like LeBron’s game better. Especially how the NBA sells it. Been said by many including people who understand the game better than me that LeBron was a much better team player

 

[AWilli6995]

Always been interested in what would have happened after the 1994-1995 season if the Bulls didn’t bring in Dennis Rodman

Would the legacy of MJ change?

Would they have won another NBA Title

I do think MJ deserves credit for dealing with Rodman. More than that understanding the need for Rodman.

Back to my point about players understanding the need for others. The difference between a winner and a loser.

MJ wanted to win more than others.
Dealt with two weirdos
Pippen might be an even bigger weirdo than Rodman.
We all know how much of a weirdo Rodman was.

I think the original Bulls team made a mistake when they gotten rid of Charles Oakley.
Most people don’t remember but Oakley played for the Bulls
Something MJ learned as well

They brought in Horace Grant. Truthfully think they might have earlier with Oakley
Pippen emergence was the second key part.

The myth of MJ is much larger than the truth.
Nothing wrong with that.
The game needs stars. Needs players to sell

But it sometimes hurts the game itself. Like I have said before. I was around basketball before MJ, during MJ and after MJ

At times I didn’t like how kids perceive the man.
Be like Mike ruined basketball for some

I actually like LeBron’s game better. Especially how the NBA sells it. Been said by many including people who understand the game better than me that LeBron was a much better team player

MJ’s will to win trumps LBJ’s and others by a wide margin. LBJ hand picked his title teams and has fallen short how many times? The what if game you play is laughable because anyone can do that to make their argument. What if Ray Allen misses that 3 in the corner against the Spurs?

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

MJ’s will to win trumps LBJ’s and others by a wide margin. LBJ hand picked his title teams and has fallen short how many times? The what if game you play is laughable because anyone can do that to make their argument. What if Ray Allen misses that 3 in the corner against the Spurs?

Not really.
Wasn’t playing the what if game.

I was showing the greatness of MJ. The problem is that the narrative of him isn’t connected to the truth.

Jordan dealt with two weirdos to win.
Pippen was in the shadow. Pippen never received credit even though he played a huge role in those championships especially the first 3.
When Pippen was given his chance to shine he came close but the pressure was way too much for him. He melted.
Pippen is like a female. Insecure. Never felt like anyone respected what he did and whined about it his entire career
MJ put up with that

Rodman is a different animal. Didn’t have to score but because of that cried out for attention in other ways.
You won’t find many basketball players like Rodman.
Today the only example I have is Draymond Green. But Green is a lot more mentally stable. For the most part Green is given his due. Green bounced from the 2016 NBA Finals and the Warriors failed…
I saw his importance with the Olympic team this year. Without him they may not have won the Gold Medal. Even though KD is my guy

Takes a lot to deal with these types of players and Jordan did because he wanted to win

But Jordan won because of them.

There were others. Ron Harper was another one on the second run. Even Harper has spoken out on how the media portrays that team
That team had two 6-6 guards. Big guards who could dominate defensively.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

I say that because in regards to Bill Russell especially
Everyone wants to give the teammates respect but not Russell
Total opposite with MJ

But both played very similar roles.
Russell even became player coach for the Celtics at the end…

Hard because LeBron bounced around so much.
To me and many others LeBron might have had a more complete game. Did a better job at bringing the players around him to his level
But the issue with LeBron is he changed teams so many times…