Let us not forget Marino's acting career, he pulled down multiple awards in Ace Ventura. That should put this one to rest for good.
Who is the G.O.A.T?
- Thread starter Demarcus Kidd-Miller
- Start date
Box scores,50cents at a news stand. Age negative cost of a rubber.
Remembering watching players play live....priceless.
Remembering watching players play live....priceless.
A lot of people hate on the guy but truth be told I root for Kevin Durant. I really like his game, just a stone cold killer.
By the end of his career, he very well could be in that conversation of top 5, top 10. I just don’t think he’s there yet.
Of all the people (all four, lol) that picked LBJ over MJ, hail wasn’t someone that crossed my mind.
I saw Marino while in college playing with Pitt put a serious assault on my beloved UofL Cardinals 63-14 in the early 80s. Game wasn't that close.
Kobe Bryant was all defense 12 times. Most by a guard in NBA history. I can’t find where KD has been all defense once.
Durant is the better player. I don't think there's any doubt there. Kobe had a better career with the caveat KD is still playing. Maybe it's just bias, but Durant joining the best regular season team of all time after losing to them in a 7 game series is a huge stain on his resume imo.
KD without question is the best/most accomplished player for Team US though.
Meh. All defense has been like gold gloves in baseball where reputation has been rewarded far more than actual play. Not to say Kobe didn't deserve any of them, but that kind of reminds me of Derek Jeter's 5 gold gloves.
Still debatable. All-defensive NBA teams are heavily influenced by reputations. Feel like he got A LOT of legacy votes. Kobe was great at denying the ball. He could hound players when he wanted to. The ability was there. Exceptional talent, no question. Just not convinced that he did that consistently enough. His effort was not sustained through the season. Votes shouldn't be based on talent and legacy.
Kobe had a negative DBPM in 11 of his 20 seasons! Only 6 times was his average better than the league average for guards. And 3 of those seasons he was only better by 0.1 points. His defensive contributions are way overvalued, IMO.
Cmon DD, you're too smart to be the 100,000th moron on the internet to use Robert Horry for that type of argument.
You know very well that there's a big difference between being a star on a championship team and being a role player. It's ok to compare rings between stars like KD and Kobe, but comparing rings between stars and role players is idiotic for obvious reasons you already know.
It's 12-0, if Jimbo is giving the scoop. It's like, the most awards ever compared to the least possible in the category. KD couldn't even bluff 1? I mean it's just one metric, and maybe it is more of a popularity thing/legacy thing... ok...I think Wade Boggs got a gold glove and he was a trash 3b.
12-0 is... It's a difference aligned with hot vs cold, short vs tall, Duke vs UNC (that was for you buddy), skinny vs fat, good vs evil, etc, etc, etc.
If you want to assign legacy votes or say the awards are meaningless or voters are just lazy I am ok with that...it's still fill in the blanks - 0. If it should be 6-0 it's a landslide. If it should be 3-0 it's still not close.
Is KD trash on the defensive end?
Are we going to give D any weight on the comparison or no?
Are we saying Kobe is the most overrated defensive player to ever play the game? I'm ok with it if that's the bottom line.
RIP Kobe, but I'm no real fan or anything. I liked it when Raja Bell pissed him off.
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IMO, the winning titles argument really only works for basketball. It's the sport where one person has the biggest affect on the game compared to other sports (besides hockey goalie). The roster is smaller, there's only 5 guys on the court at a time. stars play offense and defense and often play 40+ minutes in playoff games.
It's apples and oranges to use that same standard when comparing football players or baseball player. Especially football since those guys don't even play an entire half of the game (more if you count special teams).
I personally give a lot of credence to titles won by NBA stars, not nearly as much for stars in other sports (although I still give those guys credit too for those, just not as much as NBA)
Stop Jimbo...Barry is easily the greatest running back in the history of the game. What he did while playing for a horseshit team and behind a horseshit line has never been matched. Biggest shame in sports is that he never got on a real team. When he was there you could make the argument that the Detroit Lions were the worst run franchise in pro sports.
But, I might be biased. I was a bigger Barry fanboy than I am Trae fanboy.
So when does it stop becoming blasphemous? I said I'm cool with top five. That's not good enough, though?
As a scholar of the game with a better memory than me, what are your answers to the questions below...
How many years would you consider Kobe to have been a top shelf defender?
How many years would you consider Durant to have been a top shelf defender?
Top 2 is fine. Not gonna complain too much if someone has Brown ahead of him. That's about it though.
No. He has been in the top 20 of the league for DBPM 3 times in his career. Kobe, on the other hand, has never been in the top 20.
It's just so hard to quantify. There are so many skills that make a good defender, but most of those intangibles don't show up in stats. Synergy Sports is probably the best at deconstructing advanced statistics, but I doubt anyone takes the time to look at those numbers when voting for all-defensive teams.
I think that's a fair statement. Kobe's advanced stats are underwhelming. He has a career Defensive Box Plus Minus of -0.1. Seriously, a negative DBPM for his career? How could he possibly be awarded with 12 All-League honors?! It's embarrassing, to be honest. Kobe is talented enough to be a phenomenal defender. But, like many offensive talents that carry the burden to score, he often conserved energy on the defensive end.
Commenting on Kobe's efforts on the defensive end, Phil Jackson even made this comment in his book that was published in 2005:
"Kobe's defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league's all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn't played sound, fundamental defense.
Mesmerized by the ball, he's gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn't keep his feet on the ground."
Agreed. Jim Brown & Barry Sanders should be regarded as the #1 and #2 running backs of all-time. Brown and Sanders crush Payton and Emmitt on yards per carry.
I would bet most GM's would take prime Kobe over prime KD any day of the week.
It wasn't a serious comment, obviously.
Bob Cousy is probably a better example, as I later mentioned. No one would legitimately claim Cousy is better than Kobe. And yet, he has as many MVPs and 1 more NBA title.
All I was trying to say is NBA titles shouldn't be the stat that supersedes everything else. I have Chamberlain at #3 and he only has two titles, and one of those was with the mighty '72 Lakers.
Jim Brown acting career is most def pi$$ing on Sanders. I'm Gonna Git You Sucka says hi Barry.
Barry just keeps losing ITT.
Barry just keeps losing ITT.
I'm not scholar of the game lol. Just my opinion. I just think Kobe is one of the more overrated* guys to play in the NBA, along with everyone who played, say pre ~1970. If I was picking a team I would rather have Durant on my team on offense and defense. He's longer and much more versatile. @dukedevilz is more of the stats guy and the numbers seem to back that up, though I'm not the biggest fan of advanced defensive stats.
*I still think he's a top ~15 player of all time or so. Just nowhere near a GOAT list.
I agree. Kobe was a lock down defender and when you're debating all time how can you leave out first team all NBA? You can't.
I’d honestly put Hakeem the Dream in my top 5. He was that good.
That all seems very reasonable. I can understand the hesitation with the defensive advanced stats. You're trying to gauge a person's individual contribution, and yet all five defenders play a part in how effective a defensive unit can be (i.e. boxing out, rotating over, defending PnR, denying the ball, containing dribble drives, working together to force low % shots late in the shot clock, etc). A few games obviously isn't especially meaningful when interpreting someone's DBPM. And certainly quantifying the offensive impact is significantly easier.
That being said, when you consistently log over 2,000 minutes in a year, the sample size is large enough to mean something. And unlike college basketball, you're actually playing the same teams. I think it's very helpful that the data points are high, and the schedules and opponents are very comparable.
Here are the top 50 DBPM of all-time. Lots of amazing defenders on this list. The sample size is significant enough to make these numbers relevant, IMO. Kobe Bryant has a career DBPM of -0.1. League average is considered 0.0. So again, how could he have 12 all-league honors? Reputation is the only plausible explanation, if you ask me. He was coasting in those awards, absolutely without merit. basketball-reference.com only goes 250 deep, and Kobe isn't on there. Dude had the ability to be an all-league defender, just don't think he ever really showed the consistency. And as you mentioned, he's still an all-time great, just not on the defensive front.
| Rank | Player | DBPM |
|---|---|---|
| 1. | David Robinson* | 3.05 |
| 2. | Nate McMillan | 2.94 |
| 3. | Mark Eaton | 2.91 |
| 4. | Draymond Green | 2.82 |
| 5. | Ben Wallace* | 2.60 |
| 6. | Tree Rollins | 2.50 |
| 7. | Hakeem Olajuwon* | 2.49 |
| 8. | Bo Outlaw | 2.45 |
| 9. | George Johnson | 2.45 |
| 10. | Sam Lacey | 2.43 |
| 11. | Tim Duncan* | 2.34 |
| 12. | Marcus Camby | 2.33 |
| 13. | Andrei Kirilenko | 2.30 |
| 14. | Kawhi Leonard | 2.26 |
| 15. | Rudy Gobert | 2.26 |
| 16. | Chris Paul | 2.20 |
| 17. | Bobby Jones* | 2.19 |
| 18. | Doc Rivers | 2.19 |
| 19. | John Salley | 2.17 |
| 20. | Kevin Garnett* | 2.09 |
| 21. | Joakim Noah | 2.09 |
| 22. | Michael Jordan* | 2.05 |
| 23. | Manu Ginóbili | 2.04 |
| 24. | Robert Horry | 1.98 |
| 25. | Thabo Sefolosha | 1.97 |
| 26. | Alvin Robertson | 1.96 |
| 27. | Tony Allen | 1.93 |
| 28. | John Stockton* | 1.93 |
| 29. | Giannis Antetokounmpo | 1.93 |
| 30. | Theo Ratliff | 1.86 |
| 31. | Jon Koncak | 1.86 |
| 32. | Shawn Bradley | 1.84 |
| 33. | Wes Unseld* | 1.82 |
| 34. | LeBron James | 1.81 |
| 35. | Scottie Pippen* | 1.78 |
| 36. | Marc Gasol | 1.78 |
| 37. | Larry Bird* | 1.77 |
| 38. | Dikembe Mutombo* | 1.77 |
| 39. | Quinn Buckner | 1.75 |
| 40. | Aaron McKie | 1.74 |
| 41. | Rich Kelley | 1.74 |
| 42. | Vlade Divac* | 1.72 |
| 43. | Andrew Bogut | 1.69 |
| 44. | Don Buse | 1.67 |
| 45. | Micheal Ray Richardson | 1.65 |
| 46. | Patrick Ewing* | 1.65 |
| 47. | Paul Pressey | 1.64 |
| 48. | Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* | 1.61 |
| 49. | Magic Johnson* | 1.60 |
| 50. | Fat Lever | 1.60 |
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I think there's definitely an argument to be made there. Probably the most skilled big man in NBA history.
Wow, I seriously thought I was done having to trash anyone who was dumb enough to put Emmitt Smith anywhere near Barry Sanders 20 years ago when that narrative seemed to universally disappear. Back in the 90s I had to argue with dummies all the time about the Sanders vs Emmitt thing, but it seemed that all of those people had given that up over the past 20 years as a deeper dive has shown that Barry is lightyears ahead of the vastly overrated Smith. Didn't think there was a single person left still beating that drum.
I'll tell you what I told people 25-30 years ago. The difference between Barry and Emmitt is that playing for Detroit Barry usually had to break or avoid 2-3 tackles just to get back to the line of scrimmage whereas Emmitt Smith typically didn't have to confront a defender until he was 5 yards upfield. The first guy who attempted to tackle Smith usually brought him down. With Barry, it was usually the 3rd or 4th guy.
Emmit played with a HOF QB, a HOF WR, HOF offensive lineman, HOF coach as well as several other linemen who made pro bowls.
Barry played with zero HOF teammates or coaches. On top of that, Barry played for the worst run organization in the NFL. Smith played for the best. During Barrys 10 years in Detroit, the team drafted an offensive lineman in the first round exactly ONE TIME. That was Willie Roaf and who was a HOF, but Detroit traded him on draft night for defensive player Pat Swilling.
Smith is easily the most overrated running back in NFL history. No one in the history of the game had an easier time then him running the ball. No other supposed all time great spent his entire career surrounded by as much offensive talent as Smith.
IMO he is clearly not a top 10 RB of all time.
I can't really compare Barry to the greats before him. But there hasn't been a better runningback during or since his time. Dude ran for his life and made some of the most incredible cuts you'll ever see. Changed direction without losing speed. One of the years he led the league in rushing, he led the league in lost yards because he was always trying to find his own routes. I always thought it was a shame that a guy like Emmitt who had 4 yards spotted to him by the OL every play ended up with the rushing record with only above average talent. Really wish the Lions would have honored his request to be traded. He gave them ten years with nothing in return. I mean, he got paid.
I think a lot of ppl forget or too young to remember now, he was on track to crush Peyton's rushing yards record and retired a year or two early the year before breaking it. He could have easily set it to a bar much higher than Smith's current record.
The Emmitt vs Sanders was always fun back then. No matter which state I lived in, everyone had the same angles. Watched some come to blows.
this guy gets it.
I still remember how excited I was when Barry’s contract was about to run out. There were rumors he was going to sign with Washington or some other good team. Instead he re-upped with Detroit for 7 years. I was devastated. A year later he decided he didn’t want to play anymore. If he had just signed with a good team and told Detroit to F off who knows how much longer he would’ve played and the numbers he would’ve put up.
I’ve always contended that he could’ve run for 3000 yards easily if he was on Dallas instead of Smith. If he was on a good team I doubt it would even be a debate as to who was #1 all time.
Show of hands, be honest... who remembers Emmitt playing for AZ?
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