Who is the G.O.A.T?

[IUfanBorden]

Tons of respect for Wilt and Russell. But lets be honest, they weren't facing the Kareems, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, Mutumbo, Howard, Mourning, Ming, etx, etc....

Do I think those guys could have competed with those dudes? Yep. But they did not. Both played in an era where, well, they were just wasn't a slew of talented centers....Shit in todays NBA, we have 6'10 dudes , playing with guard skills.

Now with that being said, if I had to pick of the two, it would easily be Wilt. Athletic freak....could bench like 500lbs. Ran like a gazelle.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Wilt
Bird
Kareem
Jordan
James

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Wilt.. and it isn't close. Don't compare what has happened since he played... Don't be ignorate about accomplishments. Check the record books... He still holds records that will never be broken.

My goodness... He would have spanked Shaq's ass. Same size and Wilt ran the 440, put the shot, and high jumped at Kasas.

He would wear out any 5 in the NBA today...

Read a little about what he accomplished from high school to the end of his NBA career...

If they held a draft today,,, He would be my first choice.

Wilt is an egotist.
This is why a lot of things about him are myth.
You give me an all time draft I will definitely trade that #1 pick to get Bill Russell
I can always find people who want to shoot. But it is hard to find an all time great who will play at a high level without scoring…

Egotist are an issue…
Only have one basketball. Wilt for the most part failed to improve the team around him.
It was all about him. Like I said you can always stop one player at the end of the game but can you stop 5.
Why it is always great to have a bunch of scoring options to close out games

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Kobe Bryant was all defense 12 times. Most by a guard in NBA history. I can’t find where KD has been all defense once.

Kobe is one of the most overrated players in the history of basketball
Everything that was wrongly celebrated in basketball because of MJ created players like Kobe
Would shoot the ball 30 times to score 40 points.
Kobe had the proper mindset but what was in his mind was completely wrong and hurt the Lakers at times.
MJ wasn’t a great player because he would take over games with his scoring.
MJ was a great player because he wanted to win and would do whatever it took to get his team in position to win.
But still wasn’t as elite as Bill Russell. That has to do with size

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

I agree. Kobe was a lock down defender and when you're debating all time how can you leave out first team all NBA? You can't.

There was a player in the early 80’s like Kobe but no one even knows who he is
Bernard King.
He was on bad teams like what Kobe was on between Shaq and Pau

 

[AWilli6995]

There was a player in the early 80’s like Kobe but no one even knows who he is
Bernard King.
He was on bad teams like what Kobe was on between Shaq and Pau

I remember Bernard King. Great scorer and that’s about it. At least Kobe gave you something on the defensive end. King, not so much. I do agree Kobe was a ball hog but what separates MJ from the rest was his will to win. No NBA player to this day has that.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

King had a serious injury in his prime years.

 

[Villian07]

Emmitt Smith? Walter Peyton?

I'll give him top 4.

If barry sanders and emmit smith had switched teams, we might not even remember emmit smith. He was a good back but not as good as Sanders imo, he just played for a good team

 

[RR30]

That all seems very reasonable. I can understand the hesitation with the defensive advanced stats. You're trying to gauge a person's individual contribution, and yet all five defenders play a part in how effective a defensive unit can be (i.e. boxing out, rotating over, defending PnR, denying the ball, containing dribble drives, working together to force low % shots late in the shot clock, etc). A few games obviously isn't especially meaningful when interpreting someone's DBPM. And certainly quantifying the offensive impact is significantly easier.

That being said, when you consistently log over 2,000 minutes in a year, the sample size is large enough to mean something. And unlike college basketball, you're actually playing the same teams. I think it's very helpful that the data points are high, and the schedules and opponents are very comparable.

Here are the top 50 DBPM of all-time. Lots of amazing defenders on this list. The sample size is significant enough to make these numbers relevant, IMO. Kobe Bryant has a career DBPM of -0.1. League average is considered 0.0. So again, how could he have 12 all-league honors? Reputation is the only plausible explanation, if you ask me. He was coasting in those awards, absolutely without merit. basketball-reference.com only goes 250 deep, and Kobe isn't on there. Dude had the ability to be an all-league defender, just don't think he ever really showed the consistency. And as you mentioned, he's still an all-time great, just not on the defensive front.

Rank	Player	DBPM
1.	David Robinson*	3.05
2.	Nate McMillan	2.94
3.	Mark Eaton	2.91
4.	Draymond Green	2.82
5.	Ben Wallace*	2.60
6.	Tree Rollins	2.50
7.	Hakeem Olajuwon*	2.49
8.	Bo Outlaw	2.45
9.	George Johnson	2.45
10.	Sam Lacey	2.43
11.	Tim Duncan*	2.34
12.	Marcus Camby	2.33
13.	Andrei Kirilenko	2.30
14.	Kawhi Leonard	2.26
15.	Rudy Gobert	2.26
16.	Chris Paul	2.20
17.	Bobby Jones*	2.19
18.	Doc Rivers	2.19
19.	John Salley	2.17
20.	Kevin Garnett*	2.09
21.	Joakim Noah	2.09
22.	Michael Jordan*	2.05
23.	Manu Ginóbili	2.04
24.	Robert Horry	1.98
25.	Thabo Sefolosha	1.97
26.	Alvin Robertson	1.96
27.	Tony Allen	1.93
28.	John Stockton*	1.93
29.	Giannis Antetokounmpo	1.93
30.	Theo Ratliff	1.86
31.	Jon Koncak	1.86
32.	Shawn Bradley	1.84
33.	Wes Unseld*	1.82
34.	LeBron James	1.81
35.	Scottie Pippen*	1.78
36.	Marc Gasol	1.78
37.	Larry Bird*	1.77
38.	Dikembe Mutombo*	1.77
39.	Quinn Buckner	1.75
40.	Aaron McKie	1.74
41.	Rich Kelley	1.74
42.	Vlade Divac*	1.72
43.	Andrew Bogut	1.69
44.	Don Buse	1.67
45.	Micheal Ray Richardson	1.65
46.	Patrick Ewing*	1.65
47.	Paul Pressey	1.64
48.	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	1.61
49.	Magic Johnson*	1.60
50.	Fat Lever	1.60

I'm not saying the numbers aren't useful. But like WAR in baseball (or PER for some people), people take a look at them and think that's all there is to it. Not saying you do that obviously. But defense is hard to quantify. For years people thought steals and blocks were the most important thing too. You can look at a players shooting percentage and see about how efficient he is. Hard to do that on the defensive end. I doubt those top 3 names would be on any list of best 5 defenders of all time lol.

Jordan also lost before the finals in his first like 5 or 6 years. I know people love to throw the finals record against LeBron, but he took some awful Cavs teams to the finals. Jordan couldn't get over those Bad Boys Pistons for years (yes they were much better than teams LeBron faced). Isaiah Thomas is the only player I believe that actually got the better of Jordan. Kind of wild.

 

[RR30]

I’d honestly put Hakeem the Dream in my top 5. He was that good.

Goes back to peak vs longevity. Hakeem at his peak might have been the most skilled big ever. I'm not sure any player in NBA history could guard prime Shaq (except the FT line).

 

[GhostOf301]

As awful as the Cavs teams were. They also played in the even more awful East. Jordan's Bulls had a much tougher path to reach the finals.

 

[ExitFlagger]

If Bird hadn’t been injured and if he played in this era, he’d definitely be in the discussion.

For about a 7-year stretch, he was probably the best ever. An artist.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Wilt is an egotist.
This is why a lot of things about him are myth.
You give me an all time draft I will definitely trade that #1 pick to get Bill Russell
I can always find people who want to shoot. But it is hard to find an all time great who will play at a high level without scoring…

Egotist are an issue…
Only have one basketball. Wilt for the most part failed to improve the team around him.
It was all about him. Like I said you can always stop one player at the end of the game but can you stop 5.
Why it is always great to have a bunch of scoring options to close out games

Interesting that a center who didn’t improve his teammates managed to lead the league in assists one year.

 

[829305]

Dan Marino is a top 10 QB all time. Barry Sanders is a top 10 running back all time. I don't have either at the top, but I could understand putting Barry top 5 if you made the argument.

Also, its much easier to hold championships against someone in basketball than it is football. Basketball, five guys on the floor that play offense and defense. Barry and Dan were one of 11 guys on the field at a time, and they didn't play both ends, either.

Think you both are making solid arguments. Then you went and shit on Barry. Come on man. Top 10? Maybe top 5? Now that’s blasphemous. 😉

 

[829305]

Barry
Walter
Jim

Some other running backs.

Emmitt.


Signed,
A Cowboy fan, sadly

 

[GhostOf301]

Barry
Walter
Jim

Some other running backs.

Emmitt.


Signed,
A Cowboy fan, sadly

Cowboys and Tar Heels? Yuck. You a Yankees fan too?

 

[UL_1986]

I still think that 3-1 comeback Lebron had with the Cavs against that warriors team is one of the greatest things I’ve seen in basketball.

 

[829305]

Cowboys and Tar Heels? Yuck. You a Yankees fan too?

Close. Cardinals.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Jordan also lost before the finals in his first like 5 or 6 years. I know people love to throw the finals record against LeBron, but he took some awful Cavs teams to the finals. Jordan couldn't get over those Bad Boys Pistons for years (yes they were much better than teams LeBron faced). Isaiah Thomas is the only player I believe that actually got the better of Jordan. Kind of wild.

This cancels your entire statement, i.e. Jordan losing before the finals/LeBron taking awful Cavs teams to the Finals...Not to mention, early in his Bulls career, Chicago was just as bad as those Cavs teams...Difference is, LeBron didn't have to face Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas led teams, in his quest to the Finals.

 

[UL_1986]

This cancels your entire statement, i.e. Jordan losing before the finals/LeBron taking awful Cavs teams to the Finals...Not to mention, early in his Bulls career, Chicago was just as bad as those Cavs teams...Difference is, LeBron didn't have to face Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas led teams, in his quest to the Finals.

Good argument, though Lebron has played against some really good players in the playoffs and finals. That 06-07 Spurs team comes to mind with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Ginobli. Though they did get swept. However, Lebron had little to no help in that series.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Good argument, though Lebron has played against some really good players in the playoffs and finals.

Fair. But a lot of LBJ Cavs teams, getting to the Finals, was due to a really weak Eastern conference. LBJ did face some dudes....But he didn't have dudes like Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Vinnie Johnson, Lambier, etc, etc....Nor did he have a team design a physical, almost brutal defense, to defend him.

LBJ is great....But he'snot in Jordan's class. And IMO, it ain't really that close.

 

[UL_1986]

When all is said and done, Lebron was probably the most scrutinized great player I remember. I’m always going to appreciate his greatness in the present, and in the future when all is said and done. People pick at his character way too much imo. He’s a stand up dude that’s never had a scandal, and has always kept a admirable family life. Way too hated imo.

 

[UL_1986]

Fair. But a lot of LBJ Cavs teams, getting to the Finals, was due to a really weak Eastern conference. LBJ did face some dudes....But he didn't have dudes like Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Vinnie Johnson, Lambier, etc, etc....Nor did he have a team design a physical, almost brutal defense, to defend him.

LBJ is great....But he'snot in Jordan's class. And IMO, it ain't really that close.

I disagree, I think it’s 1a-1b. Jordan had some meh teams his first few years, but once they starting building that roster in the late 80s early 90s, he had a squad of hall of famers around him, similar to Lebron when he joined Miami. But it’s one of those agree to disagree situations that will be debated forever. One thing Jordan and Kobe had that Lebron doesn’t really have is the “curse” Jordan mentioned, where it’s a “win at all costs” and Lebron sort of has that, but doesn’t. That’s what I think separates the two.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Interesting that a center who didn’t improve his teammates managed to lead the league in assists one year.

1967-68, with Phily. He actually averaged 7.6 APG the year before. But outside of those two years, he averaged around 3.5. Seems when he got to Phily,, his shots per game dropped drastically. Wilt wasn't happy. Its why Phily traded him....After winning the MVP.

In other words, lets not let one season, or two, define the other 14 or 15.

 

[RR30]

This cancels your entire statement, i.e. Jordan losing before the finals/LeBron taking awful Cavs teams to the Finals...Not to mention, early in his Bulls career, Chicago was just as bad as those Cavs teams...Difference is, LeBron didn't have to face Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas led teams, in his quest to the Finals.

Not really. My whole point is it's dumb to criticize LeBron for making the finals and losing to better teams while ignoring Jordan's record before the finals. Both guys lost to better teams. It happens.

Fair. But a lot of LBJ Cavs teams, getting to the Finals, was due to a really weak Eastern conference. LBJ did face some dudes....But he didn't have dudes like Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Vinnie Johnson, Lambier, etc, etc....Nor did he have a team design a physical, almost brutal defense, to defend him.

LBJ is great....But he'snot in Jordan's class. And IMO, it ain't really that close.

So it's LeBron's fault he didn't play in an era where dudes were allowed to maul each other? Interesting.

Look at the rosters of the teams they were on. LeBron didn't have a player half as good as Pippen until he was in Miami. Those Pistons teams were good. He ended that little run. His final year in Cleveland I believe he lost to the Celtics, who had 3 HoF players, and maybe a 4th in young Rondo.

I still think that 3-1 comeback Lebron had with the Cavs against that warriors team is one of the greatest things I’ve seen in basketball.

To me, that made him the GOAT. Golden State has the best regular season record ever. Brought a title to Cleveland who has been a shitty team every year other than the LeBron years in the 21st century.

 

[UL_1986]

Not really. My whole point is it's dumb to criticize LeBron for making the finals and losing to better teams while ignoring Jordan's record before the finals. Both guys lost to better teams. It happens.



So it's LeBron's fault he didn't play in an era where dudes were allowed to maul each other? Interesting.

Look at the rosters of the teams they were on. LeBron didn't have a player half as good as Pippen until he was in Miami. Those Pistons teams were good. He ended that little run. His final year in Cleveland I believe he lost to the Celtics, who had 3 HoF players, and maybe a 4th in young Rondo.



To me, that made him the GOAT. Golden State has the best regular season record ever. Brought a title to Cleveland who has been a shitty team every year other than the LeBron years in the 21st century.

Agree 100%.

 

[IUfanBorden]

When all is said and done, Lebron was probably the most scrutinized great player I remember. I’m always going to appreciate his greatness in the present, and in the future when all is said and done. People pick at his character way too much imo. He’s a stand up dude that’s never had a scandal, and has always kept a admirable family life. Way too hated imo.

He brings a lot on himself, bro. Stand up guy, great husband, or not. No scandal, true....but plenty of controversy---especially ith some of the dumb shit he has said. I like LBJ. I think the dude would have a beer with anyone...But he has been his absolute on worst enemy.

 

[RR30]

Agree 100%.

I don't have an issue with people that prefer Jordan. I think it's extremely close either way. And a few other guys are right there as well. This year was the first year I think LeBron may have finally lost a step. His longevity has been obscenely impressive. His biggest on court blunder was the 2011 finals imo. Losing to the Mavs after all the talking they did was yikes.

 

[UL_1986]

I don't have an issue with people that prefer Jordan. I think it's extremely close either way. And a few other guys are right there as well. This year was the first year I think LeBron may have finally lost a step. His longevity has been obscenely impressive. His biggest on court blunder was the 2011 finals imo. Losing to the Mavs after all the talking they did was yikes.

Me neither honestly. It’s interchangeable for me. Obviously MJ is either 1a or B. I just get a kick out of older boomer/x’ers that can’t appreciate the newer era of bball.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Not really. My whole point is it's dumb to criticize LeBron for making the finals and losing to better teams while ignoring Jordan's record before the finals. Both guys lost to better teams. It happens.

Who you have to beat to get somewhere is just as relevant as getting there. Jordan lost to Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish and company three straight years...Celtics won 2 NBA titles, lost ion the Finals during that stretch....THEN, his Bulls teams lost to the Pistons, with Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Lambier, Vinnie Johnson, in three straight seasons---They won titles in 2 of those 3. So in his first what, 6 seasons, Jordan faced teams that won 4 NBA titles, losing twice in the Finals.

So thats a total of 6 NBA finals teams....4 NBA titles... 6 or 7 HOF'ers, before the Finals.

LeBron beat Detroit, led by...Ummm, Chauncey Billups, in 2007.

In 2014/15 Clev beat the Hawks, led by Paul Milsap to reach the Finals..
In 2015/16 they beat the Raptors, led by....I dunno, Derozan? Although they did have that great rally vs Golden State..
2017./18 beat Boston, led by I guess Kyrie...

Are you really gonna dismiss the two paths?

 

[IUfanBorden]

Me neither honestly. It’s interchangeable for me. Obviously MJ is either 1a or B. I just get a kick out of older boomer/x’ers that can’t appreciate the newer era of bball.

THis goes both ways....I can an easily say I get a kick out of youngins' on here, that never saw Jordan play.. Fortunately for me, I have gotten to witness both, and in their primes.

 

[IUfanBorden]

To me, that made him the GOAT. Golden State has the best regular season record ever. Brought a title to Cleveland who has been a shitty team every year other than the LeBron years in the 21st century.

One series defines his entire career? We just push aside the multiple failures....the "quititng" vs Dallas. I mean lets not forget Green getting suspended...That change thngs a lot. Not so sure there's a Game 6, if there is a Draymond in Game 5.

To use ONE moment, and dismiss multiple others, is being quite the homer...

 

[RR30]

One series defines his entire career? We just push aside the multiple failures....the "quititng" vs Dallas. I mean lets not forget Green getting suspended...That change thngs a lot. Not so sure there's a Game 6, if there is a Draymond in Game 5.

To use ONE moment, and dismiss multiple others, is being quite the homer...

No, his career defines itself. He's been at the very top of the league for almost 20 years. Jordan was in the middle of his retirement at this point of his career.

Beating the 73 win Golden State Warriors after being down 3-1 is absolutely a career highlight though. And we can play he what if game all day long.

Calling me a homer is rich though. I'd say you're far more biased than me in regards to LeBron, mainly because you don't like his politics from the looks of your posts.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Not really. My whole point is it's dumb to criticize LeBron for making the finals and losing to better teams while ignoring Jordan's record before the finals. Both guys lost to better teams. It happens.

Its funny how ya'll argue such and such having easy paths to the Final Four---like that one team---Duke.

Weird how that stance changes, now.

 

[RR30]

Its funny how ya'll argue such and such having easy paths to the Final Four---like that one team---Duke.

Weird how that stance changes, now.

That doesn't even make sense. NBA playoffs are seeded. Tournament games are decided by a committee. Not sure why you're bringing up college basketball anyway. This is about the NBA.

 

[IUfanBorden]

No, his career defines itself. He's been at the very top of the league for almost 20 years. Jordan was in the middle of his retirement at this point of his career.

Beating the 73 win Golden State Warriors after being down 3-1 is absolutely a career highlight though. And we can play he what if game all day long.

Calling me a homer is rich though. I'd say you're far more biased than me in regards to LeBron, mainly because you don't like his politics from the looks of your posts.

Politics has nothing to do with who I think is better. That has nothing to do with his basketball status. Thats your opinion---and its dumb. I think LeBron is easily one of the best to ever play the game. And have zero issue saying that. Dude is an amazing specimen, and certainly one of the best to ever play.

Jordan retired at the top of his game. Not b/c of his inability to perform. Dude left the game after winning 3 straight NBA titles...3 straight scoring titles...led the league in steals(1993).. Was MVP two of the last 3 seasons during first 3 peat... He became the first player ever to win 3 straight NBA MVP awards...averaged 41ppg in the 93 Finals..

And he walked away.

Then came back, and won 3 more titles....3 more MVP's. His last at the age of 35.

Lets not pretend as if Jordan was in some type of spiral, that led to him retiring.

Beating 73 win GS is a career HIGHLIGHT...Not a GOAT, defininf moment. If so, then maybe you outta go take a look at Game 6, on the 1998 NBA Finals..

 

[IUfanBorden]

That doesn't even make sense. NBA playoffs are seeded. Tournament games are decided by a committee. Not sure why you're bringing up college basketball anyway. This is about the NBA.

Weird...And all this time, I thought the NCAAT was seeded.

I'm not bringing up CBB...I'm bringing up how ya'll argue certain teams have easier paths. Like I said ,weird how you abandon that approach now...

 

[IUfanBorden]

No, his career defines itself. He's been at the very top of the league for almost 20 years. Jordan was in the middle of his retirement at this point of his career.

Jordan won his last NBA title at 35. MVP as well.

James is 36..

WTF does this even mean, or supposed to insinuate?

 

[RR30]

Weird...And all this time, I thought the NCAAT was seeded.

I'm not bringing up CBB...I'm bringing up how ya'll argue certain teams have easier paths. Like I said ,weird how you abandon that approach now...

So are you being obtuse on purpose or? NBA playoffs are seeded by record. Ergo you play your way into your bracket. College basketball tournament is decided by a committee. So humans pick where teams end up. Yes it's a meaningful difference and there is no comparison.

Jordan won his last NBA title at 35. MVP as well.

James is 36..

WTF does this even mean, or supposed to insinuate?

That Michael Jordan was retired at 36 years old? Go look at his basketball reference page It's right there.

LeBron won a title at 35 too btw.


I don't care that you think Jordan is better. That's a perfectly fine opinion. Saying it's not close is false. That was my only argument.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Goes back to peak vs longevity. Hakeem at his peak might have been the most skilled big ever. I'm not sure any player in NBA history could guard prime Shaq (except the FT line).

I don’t know about that…
Plus Shaq had one major issue throughout his entire career
Didn’t want to guard the pick and roll.

Difference between him and a Hakeem.
Hakeem was an elite defensive center. Might have been more dominant on the defensive end than offensive

I don’t have Shaq in my Top 5 for centers