Who is the G.O.A.T?

[Demarcus Kidd-Miller]

Tired of reading politics on the board. I don't think we've discussed this in the last few years. In that time, LBJ has added another championship so I'm interested in the results. Who's the GOAT and why?

Mine is still MJ. I have Lebron at 2. I think MJ was a better two way player. Only thing I'd give Lebron the edge in is passing. Plus, IMO, Lebron choked 3 titles away that he should've won IMO. I don't mind him losing to KD's Warriors or the loss with that shitty Cleveland team he drug to the Finals.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

 

[JimboBBN]

Like OP I have Mike at one and Bron at 2.

Not sure if there is anything LBJ can do at this point to get in first. There's no erasing his blunders, and if her were to win a title at this point in his career, he wouldn't be the best player on the team.

I think you are crazy if you don't have these guys 1 and 2. Kareem at 3. Magic at 4. Bird at 5.

1. Mike
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Shaq
10. Big O

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I'd take Magic Johnson (fitting name), over Lebron.

 

[toonces11]

1 MJ
2 Wilt
3 Kobe
4 Bron
5 Bird

 

[UL_1986]

1 MJ
2 Wilt
3 Kobe
4 Bron
5 Bird

Can’t go wrong with that 5.

 

[JimboBBN]

I am the biggest Kobe fan there is. I cried during his last game. There is not logic in putting Kobe in front of LeBron at this point.

 

[AWilli6995]

LBJ went to sleep against Dallas. No other top 10 player would never allowed that to happen. Also no one should get points for finishing second.

 

[Demarcus Kidd-Miller]

Like OP I have Mike at one and Bron at 2.

Not sure if there is anything LBJ can do at this point to get in first. There's no erasing his blunders, and if her were to win a title at this point in his career, he wouldn't be the best player on the team.

I think you are crazy if you don't have these guys 1 and 2. Kareem at 3. Magic at 4. Bird at 5.

1. Mike
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Shaq
10. Big O

I'd have Wilt a little higher, but thats a solid list.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Bill Russell is the most successful basketball player ever

The celebration of Jordan changed how people viewed the game.
But basketball is ultimately a team game and a player who is the best ever is there to make his team better

LeBron attempted to change it back. His game was a lot better for the players around him.

Ultimately Russell dominated every level
Look at the Celtics before him and then after him
More importantly the guy won back to back NC at the University of San Francisco

Much easier for someone his size to play at that level..Basketball is about size.
How that size can take away an opponent’s offensive game

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Like OP I have Mike at one and Bron at 2.

Not sure if there is anything LBJ can do at this point to get in first. There's no erasing his blunders, and if her were to win a title at this point in his career, he wouldn't be the best player on the team.

I think you are crazy if you don't have these guys 1 and 2. Kareem at 3. Magic at 4. Bird at 5.

1. Mike
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Shaq
10. Big O

Vastly overrating individual stats…

Ball counts the same regardless of who scores it
Often times when only one player is scoring it…Hurts your team because they know who to defend

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Wilt got a lot of booty

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Russell gave Wilt the better team that last year
Often said that Bill won because he had a better team but he proved in that last final that you make the team better
Jerry West even outperformed Wilt

Still one of my favorite NBA Finals. Mainly because it was the first one I remember

Selfish leaders don’t make the best.
Wilt was too selfish as a player. Hard when you are that good not to be. Probably the hardest thing in basketball is to trust your teammates

 

[RR30]

1 MJ
2 Wilt
3 Kobe
4 Bron
5 Bird

Kobe 3? LOOOOOL

 

[829305]

MJ
Bron
kareem

the rest

 

[Yellow Man]

Wilt.. and it isn't close. Don't compare what has happened since he played... Don't be ignorate about accomplishments. Check the record books... He still holds records that will never be broken.

My goodness... He would have spanked Shaq's ass. Same size and Wilt ran the 440, put the shot, and high jumped at Kasas.

He would wear out any 5 in the NBA today...

Read a little about what he accomplished from high school to the end of his NBA career...

If they held a draft today,,, He would be my first choice.

 

[shields]

Where is Oscar on list?

 

[JimboBBN]

Wilt.. and it isn't close. Don't compare what has happened since he played... Don't be ignorate about accomplishments. Check the record books... He still holds records that will never be broken.

My goodness... He would have spanked Shaq's ass. Same size and Wilt ran the 440, put the shot, and high jumped at Kasas.

He would wear out any 5 in the NBA today...

Read a little about what he accomplished from high school to the end of his NBA career...

If they held a draft today,,, He would be my first choice.

You lost me at spank Shaq's ass. Shaq was 7'1, 320 in his prime. Wilt, although being the same height, was only 275. He may have outran Shaq on the court, but Shaq would have bullied him and tossed him around on the court just like he did everyone else. Also, Shaq played against other top athletes, not a bunch of small white guys and Bill Russell.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I wish I was alive to have seen Wilt and Russell.

 

[WeAreDePaul]

1. MJ
1b. Trae

 

[jwardelt]

1. MJ
1b. Trae

 

[dukedevilz]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Bill Russell
8. Kevin Durant
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Kobe was not efficient enough IMO to be a top 10 player. Shot below 47% from the field in all 20 seasons in the league; career 3-point shooting percentage below 33%.

 

[JimboBBN]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Bill Russell
8. Kevin Durant
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Kobe was not efficient enough IMO to be a top 10 player. Shot below 47% from the field in all 20 seasons in the league; career 3-point shooting percentage below 33%.

Absolutely blasphemous to have KD in the top 10 and not the Mamba

 

[dukedevilz]

Absolutely blasphemous to have KD in the top 10 and not the Mamba

False. Statistically KD is better than Kobe in almost every category. I've bolded the leader in each statistic.


Durant
27 ppg
6.3 reb
4.2 ast
1.1 stl
1.1 blk

49.4% fg
38.4% fg
88.3% fg

26.4 PER
6.7 Box Plus/Minus
.217 Win Shares Per 48 minutes

Kobe
25 ppg
5.2 reb
4.7 ast
1.4 stl
0.5 blk

44.7% fg
32.9% 3-pt
83.7% ft

22.9 PER
4.6 Box Plus/Minus
.170 Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

 

[JimboBBN]

False. Statistically KD is better than Kobe in almost every category. I've bolded the leader in each statistic.


Durant
27 ppg
6.3 reb
4.2 ast
1.1 stl
1.1 blk

49.4% fg
38.4% fg
88.3% fg

26.4 PER
6.7 Box Plus/Minus
.217 Win Shares Per 48 minutes

Kobe
25 ppg
5.2 reb
4.7 ast
1.4 stl
0.5 blk

44.7% fg
32.9% 3-pt
83.7% ft

22.9 PER
4.6 Box Plus/Minus
.170 Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

You know what category he's not better at? Winning. That's kinda important.

 

[dukedevilz]

You know what category he's not better at? Winning. That's kinda important.

So, is Robert Horry better than Kobe?

 

[JimboBBN]

So, is Robert Horry better than Kobe?

When did Robert Horry win Finals MVP? Regular season MVP? When was Robert Horry the best player on his team?

 

[dukedevilz]

When did Robert Horry win Finals MVP? Regular season MVP? When was Robert Horry the best player on his team?

Okay, how about Bob Cousy and Bill Russell? Are they better than Kobe?

Point is, KD versus Kobe is absolutely debatable. Statistically KD is better than Kobe. And yes, Kobe has more titles. But, saying KD is better than Kobe is not in anyway blasphemous.

 

[JimboBBN]

Okay, how about Bob Cousy and Bill Russell? Are they better than Kobe?

Point is, KD versus Kobe is absolutely debatable. Statistically KD is better than Kobe. And yes, Kobe has more titles. But, saying KD is better than Kobe is not in anyway blasphemous.

Kevin Durant has zero (0!) championships without Steph Curry, another top player of all time.

We all have our subjective formula's to rank players. If we are specifically talking about individual players in their primes, then yea, I agree. Kobe vs KD is comparable. If we are taking all time accomplishments into consideration as well as what I just laid out, then I'm not sure you can have KD above Kobe in any universe.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Okay, how about Bob Cousy and Bill Russell? Are they better than Kobe?

Point is, KD versus Kobe is absolutely debatable. Statistically KD is better than Kobe. And yes, Kobe has more titles. But, saying KD is better than Kobe is not in anyway blasphemous.

So many flaws with just basing things on titles.

 

[JimboBBN]

So many flaws with just basing things on titles.

Winning titles is the ultimate accomplishment in sports. You can't have it be the only metric, but if it isn't one of the top ones, you're going to have conversations involving a bunch of losers. Unless you think Charles Barkley or Patrick Ewing, guys like that, should be in these discussions.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Winning titles is the ultimate accomplishment in sports. You can't have it be the only metric, but if it isn't one of the top ones, you're going to have conversations involving a bunch of losers. Unless you think Charles Barkley or Patrick Ewing, guys like that, should be in these discussions.

Where would you rank Barry Sanders and Dan Marino?

 

[JimboBBN]

Where would you rank Barry Sanders and Dan Marino?

Dan Marino is a top 10 QB all time. Barry Sanders is a top 10 running back all time. I don't have either at the top, but I could understand putting Barry top 5 if you made the argument.

Also, its much easier to hold championships against someone in basketball than it is football. Basketball, five guys on the floor that play offense and defense. Barry and Dan were one of 11 guys on the field at a time, and they didn't play both ends, either.

 

[dukedevilz]

We all have our subjective formula's to rank players. If we are specifically talking about individual players in their primes, then yea, I agree. Kobe vs KD is comparable. If we are taking all time accomplishments into consideration as well as what I just laid out, then I'm not sure you can have KD above Kobe in any universe.

Most great players have won titles with other great players.

Jordan had Pippen
Abdul Jabbar had Magic and Oscar
Russell had Cousy
LeBron had D-Wade, Kyrie, and AD
Bird had McHale

Tim Duncan won 5 titles as the #1 guy. He had a great teammates in Parker and Ginobili, but they're not considered all-time greats. I don't think TD is necessarily better than Kobe and KD because he won as many (or more titles) with a lesser supporting cast. And Kobe was the #2 guy for at least 2 of his ships. Shaq was 1st Team All NBA in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Pau Gasol was 3rd Team All NBA in 2009 and 2010. Kobe wasn't playing with chumps.

My answer is still the same. Durant is better than Kobe. But, I think it's at least up for conversation.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I guess is it stats or championships? Obviously with both they get in the GOAT discussion.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

It's just real hard to rate players from different eras, especially different positions. I do feel like Kobe and Durant are in different eras.

One thing not mentioned.

Kobe was on the 1st team All defensive team 9 times. I can't seem to find Durant's shares on that what do you all see? I saw 6 somewhere but then somewhere else I see 0, is either correct?

 

[dukedevilz]

I guess is it stats or championships? Obviously with both they get in the GOAT discussion.

Got to be a combination of everything. Nobody is going to say Cousy, a former MVP & 6-time NBA Champ, is better than Kobe. But, KD better than Kobe? Yes, that is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Where would you rank Barry Sanders and Dan Marino?

Marino's hair > than Barry's hair

 

[JimboBBN]

Most great players have won titles with other great players.

Jordan had Pippen
Abdul Jabbar had Magic and Oscar
Russell had Cousy
LeBron had D-Wade, Kyrie, and AD
Bird had McHale

Tim Duncan won 5 titles as the #1 guy. He had a great teammates in Parker and Ginobili, but they're not considered all-time greats. I don't think TD is necessarily better than Kobe and KD because he won as many (or more titles) with a lesser supporting cast. And Kobe was the #2 guy for at least 2 of his ships. Shaq was 1st Team All NBA in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Pau Gasol was 3rd Team All NBA in 2009 and 2010. Kobe wasn't playing with chumps.

My answer is still the same. Durant is better than Kobe. But, I think it's at least up for conversation.

I do not consider any of those players you listed top 20. DWade is probably top 20. Curry is definitely top 20. Pippen isn't. McHale, lol. Cousy?

Again, as a individual players, if you want to put KD above Kobe, then you have an argument. Even if I disagree. But part of making these lists is combining that perspective with accomplishments. Just by looking at your list, your formula for top ten players includes accomplishments with the exception of KD.

Kevin Durant's resume isn't close to some of those guys. Kobe's is, though.

 

[dukedevilz]

I do not consider any of those players you listed top 20. DWade is probably top 20. Curry is definitely top 20. Pippen isn't. McHale, lol. Cousy?

Again, as a individual players, if you want to put KD above Kobe, then you have an argument. Even if I disagree. But part of making these lists is combining that perspective with accomplishments. Just by looking at your list, your formula for top ten players includes accomplishments with the exception of KD.

Kevin Durant's resume isn't close to some of those guys. Kobe's is, though.

2x Finals MVP, 1x MVP, 2x NBA Champ, 4x NBA leading scorer, 6x All NBA 1st Team, All Time leading scorer for Team USA. That merit consideration for a top 10 resume.

And by your own rankings, Kobe won 3 titles with a top 10 player. And Pau was 3rd Team All-NBA. Again, it's at least debatable.