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SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Pac 12 is horrible.
Much easier to win games.

You have a competitive game in the Big 12 against everyone in the Big 12 pretty much every year.

Jamie Dixon probably could get any program to the tournament in 3 years in the PAC 12
Click to expand...

I'm talking about winning games in the NCAAT. Regardless of the comparative strength of the PAC 12, Altman has made deep runs in the NCAAT at Oregon. If his success was really due to the PAC 12 being horrible, you wouldn't see the same level of success in the NCAAT.

When Dixon did make the tournament at TCU, he showed how tough the Big 12 is by losing in the first round.
 
Kevin Bryan said:
What you aren't accounting for is that Dixon is the reason for that success, those are his accolades you listed. What did Pitt do before him and what have they done since? Since he has been at TCU he won the NIT first year, took them to their first NCAAT in 20 years the 2nd, and went to the NIT semis last year. He is 84-57 since he has been at TCU. Meanwhile, Pitt is 54-77 in the same timeframe.
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To be fair, Ben Howland was the one that built the initial foundation of all that success. He was responsible for a few of those Sweet Sixteens and three Big East championships.
 
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duckboy33 said:
I'm talking about winning games in the NCAAT. Regardless of the comparative strength of the PAC 12, Altman has made deep runs in the NCAAT at Oregon. If his success was really due to the PAC 12 being horrible, you wouldn't see the same level of success in the NCAAT.

When Dixon did make the tournament at TCU, he showed how tough the Big 12 is by losing in the first round.
Click to expand...

You are asking why he hasn't been able to win games.
Because the Big 12 is a competitive conference. Every school is capable of playing in the NCAA Tournament pretty much every year.

Jamie Dixon has TCU as one of those teams. Him taking the next step is the question.
 
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Kevin Bryan said:
No offense, just nothing there that shouts Pitt is a better program than TCU, especially not when the latter is willing to double your salary.
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Not sure where you are getting that they doubled his salary. Do you mean base-pay and bonuses? Jamie Dixon earned $2.3m total in his last year at Pitt (source) while he last earned $3.4m total at TCU (source). Pitt also ate a $9.4m buyout to get rid of Kevin Stallings in 2018 (source), so I’m not too worried about our financial abilities.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about Pitt and TCU being on the same level. I do hope the Horned Frogs can make a more compelling argument soon, in my eyes, because that’d mean Coach Dixon has done well there! :)
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
You are asking why he hasn't been able to win games.
Because the Big 12 is a competitive conference. Every school is capable of playing in the NCAA Tournament pretty much every year.
Click to expand...

If that’s what you want to believe, go for it. You’d think those teams would have a huge advantage in the tournament then but they don’t
 
theetommyt said:
Pitt hired this guy for 2 years, right after he was fired from Vanderbilt. Capel might be able to make them a tournament team, but the cupboard was completely bare when he took over. Pitt's roster was dog shit under Stallings.
kevinspallings.png
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Might go down as one of the worst hires in college basketball history. In a two year span, he ruined what was one of the most successful college basketball programs over a 15-year period! :(
 
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duckboy33 said:
If that’s what you want to believe, go for it. You’d think those teams would have a huge advantage in the tournament then but they don’t
Click to expand...

It is what the numbers say.
KenPom has had it the #1 conference pretty much every year

Regarding TCU.
I have no idea why they lost to Syracuse.

His issues with TCU have been on offense.

But most of the Big 12 is like that.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
It is what the numbers say.
KenPom has had it the #1 conference pretty much every year

Regarding TCU.
I have no idea why they lost to Syracuse.

His issues with TCU have been on offense.

But most of the Big 12 is like that.
Click to expand...

Thats a problem come tournament time. You can win regular season games by having athletes and having a good defensive scheme. You need to be able to score go on a run in March. If you can’t, you run into Boeheim and can’t score on his zone.

Big 12 is good, very good. The gap between them and the rest of the power conferences isn’t what you believe it is
 
End of the day it is financial.

I see Howland leaving.
But Pitt has a history of their coaches leaving. Especially in Football.

Hard when your boosters aren't giving back to the school and you are a pro sports city.



But what was said regarding basketball.
I think that is where Pitt could find their lane but they are in Western PA where football is bigger than basketball
 
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SheriffBufordTJustice said:
End of the day it is financial.

I see Howland leaving.
But Pitt has a history of their coaches leaving. Especially in Football.

Hard when your boosters aren't giving back to the school and you are a pro sports city.



But what was said regarding basketball.
I think that is where Pitt could find their lane but they are in Western PA where football is bigger than basketball
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Pitt football and basketball are two very different programs. They play in a city with an NFL team and they don't even have their own stadium.

Pitt basketball is the basketball game in town. They have a nice arena and play in the premier basketball conference in America.
 
duckboy33 said:
Pitt football and basketball are two very different programs. They play in a city with an NFL team and they don't even have their own stadium.

Pitt basketball is the basketball game in town. They have a nice arena and play in the premier basketball conference in America.
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Problem with the ACC is money.
UNC and Duke have outside money. Even Louisville.
Pitt doesn't have this. They aren't on the level of those other schools.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Not on the level of TCU either it looks like.
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TCU must have spent like crazy that year. They are trying to elevate the program, no doubt. It's just hard when you start as a mediocre mid major program and get thrown in a top tier conference. I give them credit for trying and not just letting the hoops program rot in the Big 12.
 
duckboy33 said:
TCU must have spent like crazy that year. They are trying to elevate the program, no doubt. It's just hard when you start as a mediocre mid major program and get thrown in a top tier conference. I give them credit for trying and not just letting the hoops program rot in the Big 12.
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Difference between them and Pitt
TCU isn't afraid to spend money and knows it takes money to win

Big East is very different than the ACC because of UNC, Duke and Louisville.

Going to take money.

Just look at Gary Patterson.
Look at Pitt football coaches
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Difference between them and Pitt
TCU isn't afraid to spend money and knows it takes money to win

Big East is very different than the ACC because of UNC, Duke and Louisville.

Going to take money.

Just look at Gary Patterson.
Look at Pitt football coaches
Click to expand...

Can TCU really sustain that spending? Right now Pitt and TCU basketball are bringing in the same amount of money. TCU can't sustain that spending annually. They are hoping to see a better return on investment if the program gets to the next level but so far that hasn't happened. Pitt is much more stable.

Not going to argue football. TCU will spend money to compete in football, Pitt won't. It's as simple as that.
 
duckboy33 said:
Can TCU really sustain that spending? Right now Pitt and TCU basketball are bringing in the same amount of money. TCU can't sustain that spending annually. They are hoping to see a better return on investment if the program gets to the next level but so far that hasn't happened. Pitt is much more stable.

Not going to argue football. TCU will spend money to compete in football, Pitt won't. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...

How is the money comparable?

Big 12 has only 10 teams.
ACC has 14 1/2

In terms of media. The difference is 10+ million dollars

I doubt the ACC network will make up the difference.
The ACC might not have their warts in front of the world like the PAC 12 but there are some major issues there financially.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
How is the money comparable?

Big 12 has only 10 teams.
ACC has 14 1/2

In terms of media. The difference is 10+ million dollars

I doubt the ACC network makes up the difference.
The ACC might not have their warts in front of the world like the PAC 12 but there are some major issues there financially.
Click to expand...

The data showed the revenue. Also important to remember that 2018 TCU was peaking as a program and Pitt was in it's worst position in the 21st century. The revenue was the same. Tells you all you need to know.
 
HailToPitt725 said:
Not sure where you are getting that they doubled his salary. Do you mean base-pay and bonuses? Jamie Dixon earned $2.3m total in his last year at Pitt (source) while he last earned $3.4m total at TCU (source). Pitt also ate a $9.4m buyout to get rid of Kevin Stallings in 2018 (source), so I’m not too worried about our financial abilities.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about Pitt and TCU being on the same level. I do hope the Horned Frogs can make a more compelling argument soon, in my eyes, because that’d mean Coach Dixon has done well there! :)
Click to expand...
I didn't break down the numbers, I just remember seeing this.
 
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SheriffBufordTJustice said:
That is basketball revenue alone

You have media revenue as well.

You have to look at overall revenue.
Click to expand...

Overall revenue is great when you are talking about an athletic department as a whole. The thing is, TCU is going to sink a lot more resources into football than they are for basketball. The AD at TCU isn't going to let the basketball program operate in the red forever. They are taking a gamble right now, we'll see if it pays off.
 
duckboy33 said:
Overall revenue is great when you are talking about an athletic department as a whole. The thing is, TCU is going to sink a lot more resources into football than they are for basketball. The AD at TCU isn't going to let the basketball program operate in the red forever. They are taking a gamble right now, we'll see if it pays off.
Click to expand...

A lot of basketball programs are in the red.
Because football revenue is so high.

The issue when you look at revenue in individual sports is schools don't always claim the same thing.

Reason why overall revenue is a much better number
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
A lot of basketball programs are in the red.
Because football revenue is so high.

The issue when you look at revenue in individual sports is schools don't always claim the same thing.

Reason why overall revenue is a much better number
Click to expand...

TCU isn't going to continue to outspend everyone in the Big 12 in hoops so they can go 16-16. It's just not going to happen.
 
theetommyt said:
Pitt hired this guy for 2 years, right after he was fired from Vanderbilt. Capel might be able to make them a tournament team, but the cupboard was completely bare when he took over. Pitt's roster was dog shit under Stallings.
kevinspallings.png
Click to expand...

This. Pitt is clearly a better program than TCU. Pitt was a beast in the old big east with Dejuan blair, Fields, Krauser etc. just bc pitts ad was dumb enough to hire Kevin stallings doesn’t mean pitt and tcu are on the same level.
 
I’ll gladly argue that the old big east and the acc are/were both better conferences than the big12. I’ll give you the no easy outs in the big 12, but there’s a reason Kansas won what 14 straight regular season championships. Bc there is no other premiere program in the big 12. If you made a list top to bottom of the best programs in the nation, after Kansas it’s gonna be a long list before another big 12 team is mentioned. Sure every once in a while a Texas tech or Oklahoma strings together a few good seasons, but there hasn’t been a consistent challenger to Kansas in my lifetime. The old big east had nova,, gtown, UConn, Louisville etc the acc has unc, Duke, cuse, now Louisville, FSU. All those schools are better than the second best basketball program in the big 12. And again I agree with the no easy outs and the true round robin, but over the years the programs in the big 12 sans Kansas haven’t matched up to the top 3-4 teams in the acc or the top 3-4 teams in the old big east. It’s not even very close imo.
 
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Villian07 said:
This. Pitt is clearly a better program than TCU. Pitt was a beast in the old big east with Dejuan blair, Fields, Krauser etc. just bc pitts ad was dumb enough to hire Kevin stallings doesn’t mean pitt and tcu are on the same level.
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They don't have the money.
Everything in basketball is based on money.
Do you have the people who are willing to put money behind you.

Reason why Jamie Dixon left for TCU.

Pretty much all schools have the ability to be good at one time.
Just matters if the AD, boosters and fanbase are behind you to raise the level.

At the end of the day Dixon wants to be there
He turned down going to UCLA last year.
 
Dixon good run @ PITT for sure. Felt like they were in neutral that last few years maybe... the move to ACC was an adjustment in style, felt like talent may have dropped off a little... could be wrong about that.

Seemed unappreciated maybe. Message boards are a small fraction of a fan base but I'd visit their board and it really seemed like the community was done with him before he took the TCU job.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
They don't have the money.
Everything in basketball is based on money.
Do you have the people who are willing to put money behind you.

Reason why Jamie Dixon left for TCU.

Pretty much all schools have the ability to be good at one time.
Just matters if the AD, boosters and fanbase are behind you to raise the level.

At the end of the day Dixon wants to be there
He turned down going to UCLA last year.
Click to expand...
Dixon would be at UCLA right now if UCLA had been willing to pay his $8 million buyout. They weren't and TCU wouldn't budge on it.
 
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Kevin Bryan said:
Dixon would be at UCLA right now if UCLA had been willing to pay his $8 million buyout. They weren't and TCU wouldn't budge on it.
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Dixon still said it was his choice
Don't know if that is for recruiting and to promote the program or if that is the truth.

End of the day TCU has showed the willingness to spend on basketball.
Dixon wants something the AD and boosters provide it for him.
That is very hard to pass up and gives you the chance to build a monster program.


With that you probably could say TCU has a much higher ceiling than Pitt.
Especially because of local talent in the Metroplex.
Pretty much every year you have at least one sometimes two or three 5 star recruits coming out of DFW
 
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Is it just me or did as soon as he commit to Pitt, ESPN take him out of their top 100?
 
duckboy33 said:
Since 2000:

Tournament Appearances:
Pitt - 13
TCU - 1

Conference Championships (Regular Season or Tournament)
Pitt - 6
TCU - 0

Sweet 16 Appearances:
Pitt - 5
TCU - 0

Clear downgrade
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Take Dixon out of the equation for Pitt and it's a different picture. Neither school has done much historically, and is put Pitt slightly ahead overall.

Still a lateral move.
 
duckboy33 said:
If that’s what you want to believe, go for it. You’d think those teams would have a huge advantage in the tournament then but they don’t
Click to expand...
Seeding matters, overall wins matter for recruiting.

Oregon and Tcu could be the exact same team, but Tcu goes 20-10 with a 10 seed in the big 12, while Oregon goes 25-5 in the pac and gets a 4 seed. Tcu plays a coin flip type game, while Oregon is a protected seed.

That winning looks better for recruiting, donations, perception, etc.
 
Cougar High made the SWC conference take basketball serious.
They didn't join until later and this was when Guy Lewis already had the program up and running.
Late 1970's and Early 1980's was when a lot of schools started putting money into the sport.
TCU with Jim Killingsworth put some decent teams on the floor. They actually took him from Oklahoma State
Weren't on the level of Arkansas and Texas in the 1980's but TCU was a decent team.
 
Last edited:
Kronic22 said:
Seeding matters, overall wins matter for recruiting.

Oregon and Tcu could be the exact same team, but Tcu goes 20-10 with a 10 seed in the big 12, while Oregon goes 25-5 in the pac and gets a 4 seed. Tcu plays a coin flip type game, while Oregon is a protected seed.

That winning looks better for recruiting, donations, perception, etc.
Click to expand...

Oregon's gotten to the sweet 16 as a double digit seed, multiple times under Altman. If you're team is good enough, you win the games. In TCU's only appearance in the tournament, they lost as the higher seed. The difference is in the quality of the team.
 
Kevin Bryan said:
Capacity is only 6,700 at TCU. Also, Ft. Worth population is 895K, LA is 4 million.
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So neither are being sold out, I'd imagine the TV dollars are better at UCLA as well. I'm a HUGE sports fan from the midwest, but lived just outside of LA for 3 years. Living in SoCal and all that it offers does give you a few more great things to do than watching games. The biggest sports bar in Ventura always had a good crowd for USC football, UCLA basketball, Dodger baseball, and Lakers basketball too. When you can watch the game on a big screen at an outdoor bar, sometimes that's a lot nicer than heading to Pauley or Dodger stadium too. As with most large cities, the college game takes a back seat to the pros as well. You're a Kentucky fan, UCLA has more titles, and Kentucky fans still hate it as irrelevant as it is in 2020.
 
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