****Official B1G Off Season Thread****

[Jaycg15]

Huh? You joined the conversation late and missed it. We were talking about how often freshmen come in and outperform what Eli did last season because we were discussing McGowens. Jay listed Ayo, Frazier, and Curbelo’s freshman years. I said Frazier’s freshman year and Eli’s senior year were even.

You might want to look at Ayo's freshman year closer. They're nearly identical.

	PPG	APG	TRB	STL	Ortg	Drtg	3P%	USG	WS/40
Ayo Dosunmu	13.8​	3.3​	4​	1.3​	104.4​	106.5​	35.2​	24.2​	0.100​
Trent Frazier	12.5​	3.1​	1.8​	1.7​	102.9​	104.1​	34.7​	26.3​	0.105​

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I think it's a stupid comparison because Frazier's role was drastically different. Brooks would've looked like shit on that team.

Sure, it’s hard to compare because of that. But that’s the point I’m making with counting stats and efficiency. Brooks scored more points his junior year than senior year despite increasing his shooting. That’s the difference between being a 3rd of 4th option on an average team vs a 5th option on a good team.

 

[Jaycg15]

Sure, it’s hard to compare because of that. But that’s the point I’m making with counting stats and efficiency. Brooks scored more points his junior year than senior year despite increasing his shooting. That’s the difference between being a 3rd of 4th option on an average team vs a 5th option on a good team.

Ohhhh, that's the point you're making? I thought it was that Eli Brooks should be the fifth starter for some fvcking reason.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Ohhhh, that's the point you're making? I thought it was that Eli Brooks should be the fifth starter for some fvcking reason.

You turned this into Frazier’s freshman year vs Brooks’ senior year and called me a homer for saying they were even. Must be really bored today.

 

[Jaycg15]

You turned this into Frazier’s freshman year vs Brooks’ senior year and called me a homer for saying they were even. Must be really bored today.

How many freshman guards have come in and had a better freshman season than Brooks did last year? The only Michigan one I can think is Trey Burke. Stauskas? Probably not. Close (Stauskas better offensively, Eli way better defense). Walton? No. Irvin? No. Simpson? No. Poole? No. Jackson? No. Bufkin and Collins probably not.

Just don’t see many freshman guards coming in and putting up an efficient 10/3/3 while playing top tier defense.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

OSU is going to be a force. The more I think about their team, the more I think they'll be 4th or better.

I agree, and I’m actually a bit surprised they were that “low” in the preseason top 25, I just think they’re a (small) space below the other three.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

^ and all I said when you brought up Frazier’s year was that it was even with Brooks. Pretty benign.

 

[Jaycg15]

^ and all I said when you brought up Frazier’s year was that it was even with Brooks. Pretty benign.

So you'd start Freshman Trent Frazier alongside Ivey, Houstan, Liddell, and Cockburn? Now, maybe you see how stupid that is.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

So you'd start Freshman Trent Frazier alongside Ivey, Houstan, Liddell, and Cockburn? Now, maybe you see how stupid that is.

No. If they are even give me the better shooter to play alongside Ivey.

 

[Jaycg15]

No. If they are even give me the better shooter to play alongside Ivey.

So Frazier then? Brooks has never shot above 40% from 3, has made less than half as many, and has a lower career percentage.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

So Frazier then? Brooks has never shot above 40% from 3, has made less than half as many, and has a lower career percentage.

I don’t think Frazier is a better shooter than Eli Brooks, but I’ve already said I’m fine with people if they think Frazier and Ivey is a better combination. They are pretty even players (as we both said).

 

[Jaycg15]

I don’t think Frazier is a better shooter than Eli Brooks, but I’ve already said I’m fine with people if they think Frazier and Ivey is a better combination. They are pretty even players (as we both said).

I don't get why a guy that's made two times more at a higher percentage for both career and a season isn't better? Fvck it. Throw it on a poll.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I leave Hunter Dickinson, who was a second team All American as a freshman, off the starting 5 that I build but get grilled for being a homer because I think Ivey/Brooks are a good back court pairing. Very interesting thread lately.

 

[NC_Trojan10]

I don't get why a guy that's made two times more at a higher percentage for both career and a season isn't better? Fvck it. Throw it on a poll.

Yes please throw it on a poll. Then these two can see that they are the only ones (maybe some more Illinois homers) that would take Frazier over Brooks.

 

[Jaycg15]

I leave Hunter Dickinson, who was a second team All American as a freshman, off the starting 5 that I build but get grilled for being a homer because I think Ivey/Brooks are a good back court pairing. Very interesting thread lately.

He would've been a good choice with his ability to stretch the floor from 3. Release is a little low though.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I don't get why a guy that's made two times more at a higher percentage for both career and a season isn't better? Fvck it. Throw it on a poll.

Because Eli Brooks used to be dogshit but I’m not picking young Eli Brooks.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

He would've been a good choice with his ability to stretch the floor from 3. Release is a little low though.

I did particularly enjoy the Illinois fans who tried to tell me Houstan wasn’t a good shooter including Houstan on their starting 5 team as their shooter.

Interesting thread

 

[Jaycg15]

I did particularly enjoy the Illinois fans who tried to tell me Houstan wasn’t a good shooter including Houstan on their starting 5 team as their shooter.

Interesting thread

I saw a guy try to put a role player into the conversation for starting 5 of all the Big Ten. Some really interesting takes in this thread.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Me: Picks Kofi over Dickinson.
Me: Picks Brooks over Curbelo because I wanna pair Ivey with a combo guard who can shoot and defend.

Everyone else: I see your point

Illinois fans: This is madness!

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I saw a guy try to put a role player into the conversation for starting 5 of all the Big Ten. Some really interesting takes in this thread.

He plays his role well and it perfectly compliments my lead guard pick. There really aren’t any obvious picks that compliment Ivey well, as everyone else has already acknowledged. This isn’t an all conference selection, it’s building a 5 I think would play well together on the floor.

 

[Jaycg15]

He plays his role well and it perfectly compliments my lead guard pick. There really aren’t any obvious picks that compliment Ivey well, as everyone else has already acknowledged. This isn’t an all conference selection, it’s building a 5 I think would play well together on the floor.

Look, I get it. He makes sense because there are so few other options (surprisingly), but there's no way in hell that level of player is a legitimate choice for that topic.

 

[Jaycg15]

This is too funny. Not me for the record, but it's serendipitous.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Look, I get it. He makes sense because there are so few other options (surprisingly), but there's no way in hell that level of player is a legitimate choice for that topic.

I prefaced the entire thing by saying how few options there were.

My first lock was Ivey and my second was Kofi. From there I wanted to pair Ivey with a good PG who is a good shooter. I went threw every team and realized no PGs really fit that bill. So I moved to combo guards and thought Eli was a good compliment to a player like Ivey. Frazier is too. I think either are fine to pair with Ivey.

The outrage over that thought process is over the top.

 

[Toast.]

Jay, Hail and Trojan rn

 

[Jaycg15]

Jay, Hail and Trojan rn

My entire argument has been against including role players.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

My entire argument has been against including role players.

I think Curbelo is better than Brooks. I just don’t think he pairs well in a back court with Ivey if we are building a lineup.

We can take the Michigan aspect out. I’d rather have Frazier paired with Ivey in my back court than Curbelo, too.

 

[Jaycg15]

I think Curbelo is better than Brooks. I just don’t think he pairs well in a back court with Ivey if we are building a lineup.

We can take the Michigan aspect out. I’d rather have Frazier paired with Ivey in my back court than Curbelo, too.

I understand your argument. I'm just not sure that is the best choice for that logic. You could put Ivey as primary ball handler and pick a ton of other guys that fit well and are much better players.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I understand your argument. I'm just not sure that is the best choice for that logic. You could put Ivey as primary ball handler and pick a ton of other guys that fit well and are much better players.

Ok but who? I’m cool with Frazier or Brooks. They both fill the role. Maybe there are better options but who?

 

[Jaycg15]

Ok but who? I’m cool with Frazier or Brooks. They both fill the role. Maybe there are better options but who?

Eric Ayala for one. Not an elite shooter, but he’s good enough while being better at other things. And he’s handled the ball too.

Curbelo or Ivey are essentially going to be the one in either scenario. They’d be put in PnRs frequently, and you’re filling shooters around them. You can pick any 1-3 to fill that gap. Ron Harper. Not sure Davis’s stats last year show well enough but he’s probably going to be Wisconsin’s best player. I think McGowen’s is getting overlooked too. His skinny, so maybe he needs another year. Obviously, Tamar Bates.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Eric Ayala for one. Not an elite shooter, but he’s good enough while being better at other things. And he’s handled the ball too.

Curbelo or Ivey are essentially going to be the one in either scenario. They’d be put in PnRs frequently, and you’re filling shooters around them. You can pick any 1-3 to fill that gap. Ron Harper. Not sure Davis’s stats last year show well enough but he’s probably going to be Wisconsin’s best player. I think McGowen’s is getting overlooked too. His skinny, so maybe he needs another year. Obviously, Tamar Bates.

If I have Ivey as my lead guard, I prefer to have my off guard be a secondary ball handler. That’s just a difference of opinion. Which is ok.

I think Ayala is in the same tier as Frazier/Brooks.

I’d rather have Frazier/Brooks to compliment Ivey than Ron Harper.

 

[Jaycg15]

If I have Ivey as my lead guard, I prefer to have my off guard be a secondary ball handler. That’s just a difference of opinion. Which is ok.

I think Ayala is in the same tier as Frazier/Brooks.

I’d rather have Frazier/Brooks to compliment Ivey than Ron Harper.

I think Ayala is a tier above. He took a big step last year.

 

[1016CC0503]

I did particularly enjoy the Illinois fans who tried to tell me Houstan wasn’t a good shooter including Houstan on their starting 5 team as their shooter.

Interesting thread

I could move Ron Harper to SF and start EJ Liddell at PF. If you’d prefer

Small forward is the conferences weakest position. Only other player I’d debate would be Gabe Brown.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

I think Ayala is a tier above. He took a big step last year.

I think a senior Frazier could’ve had a similar season playing on that Maryland team.

 

[Jaycg15]

@NC_Trojan10

 

[Jaycg15]

I think a senior Frazier could’ve had a similar season playing on that Maryland team.

Maybe. Ayala is bigger and has more versatility.

 

[NC_Trojan10]

@NC_Trojan10

View embedded media

Well if a random Twitter account said it, it must be true… lol Plummer not even a starter.

 

[NC_Trojan10]

I could move Ron Harper to SF and start EJ Liddell at PF. If you’d prefer

Small forward is the conferences weakest position. Only other player I’d debate would be Gabe Brown.

Not sure why you would have Harper in your lineup at all.

 

[Jaycg15]

Well if a random Twitter account said it, it must be true… lol Plummer not even a starter.

You don’t know who Ant Wright is?

https://m.youtube.com/c/itsAntWright

 

[1016CC0503]

Me: Picks Kofi over Dickinson.
Me: Picks Brooks over Curbelo because I wanna pair Ivey with a combo guard who can shoot and defend.

Everyone else: I see your point

Illinois fans: This is madness!

Hail: picks Brooks over Frazier* not Curbelo, given the role.

Illinois fan: have common sense and look at stats, conclude Frazier is better over time. At the same role.

Hail: Claims he’s not a homer by pointing to Dickinson as example. Then cries and acts like a victim.