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Let me explain why Kyle Guy is the #1 recruit for 2016

Some are failing to grasp the argument here.

FR Grayson Allen + SO Grayson Allen + JR Grayson Allen < FR Julius Randle + FR Karl Towns + FR Jamal Murray

Grayson Allen, individually, will "contribute" more than all 3, but combined, nobody is crazy enough to make that swap.

In hindsight, it's easy to do. Anyone would take Steph Curry's college career, but the risk BEFORE it happens is incredibly high.

If you're playing odds, you don't take a 3-year player over 3 OAD's. Period.
 
rockycard said:
I'll go with the guy with a championship over anyone, NBA draft stock means zilch to me...call me crazy I guess, if there is a message board for the NBA, you can have it.
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I'm sure NBA draft stock means zilch to a lot of UL fans. Not flaming, just saying. Haven't had a ton of guys high up on the draft charts in the last 15 years.
 
KA4Prez said:
Some are failing to grasp the argument here.

FR Grayson Allen + SO Grayson Allen + JR Grayson Allen < FR Julius Randle + FR Karl Towns + FR Jamal Murray

Grayson Allen, individually, will "contribute" more than all 3, but combined, nobody is crazy enough to make that swap.

In hindsight, it's easy to do. Anyone would take Steph Curry's college career, but the risk BEFORE it happens is incredibly high.

If you're playing odds, you don't take a 3-year player over 3 OAD's. Period.
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What about FR Skal+FR Harrison+FR Lee?
 
IUBtown said:
What about FR Skal+FR Harrison+FR Lee?
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Freshman Skal blew, Freshman Harrison got Kentucky to the national title game, freshman Lee went off on Michigan to get to the final four. I like freshman Lee more than junior Lee. Most UK fans do.

Point was also made though, not all 3 year players are Grayson Allen.
 
Rhavicc said:
Freshman Skal blew, Freshman Harrison got Kentucky to the national title game, freshman Lee went off on Michigan to get to the final four. I like freshman Lee more than junior Lee. Most UK fans do.

Point was also made though, not all 3 year players are Grayson Allen.
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Freshman Allen was the biggest reason Duke won a title. : )
 
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KA4Prez said:
Some are failing to grasp the argument here.

FR Grayson Allen + SO Grayson Allen + JR Grayson Allen < FR Julius Randle + FR Karl Towns + FR Jamal Murray

Grayson Allen, individually, will "contribute" more than all 3, but combined, nobody is crazy enough to make that swap.

In hindsight, it's easy to do. Anyone would take Steph Curry's college career, but the risk BEFORE it happens is incredibly high.

If you're playing odds, you don't take a 3-year player over 3 OAD's. Period.
Click to expand...

I think people are also failing to grasp that having Grayson Allen as a sophomore and junior doesn't keep you from signing other players. Duke signed Harry Giles, Tatum, and Jackson all this year despite now having a bona-fide star in JR Grayson still on the roster.

So while I totally see what you're saying, you'd be crazy if you think Booker + Murray + Monk all as FR are better than 3 years of growth, experience, and development from Grayson Allen, who will probably end up with 2 more titles himself than those 3 combined.
 
Seems like Experience should factor in as well. There have been very successful teams dominated by one and dones, 2012 uk and 2015 duke are representations that you can win it all with a freshman heavy lineup, but those teams are more of an exception than the norm. People often state on here how the most talented team or "best" team often does not win the title, and I think a lot of the time the lack of experience is often discounted because some of these one and done guys are so talented
 
Mgkcbb said:
I think people are also failing to grasp that having Grayson Allen as a sophomore and junior doesn't keep you from signing other players. Duke signed Harry Giles, Tatum, and Jackson all this year despite now having a bona-fide star in JR Grayson still on the roster.

So while I totally see what you're saying, you'd be crazy if you think Booker + Murray + Monk all as FR are better than 3 years of growth, experience, and development from Grayson Allen, who will probably end up with 2 more titles himself than those 3 combined.
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Grayson would certainly have no title without Okafor and Jones, and no shot at a second without Tatum and Giles.
 
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VulvHa said:
Grayson would certainly have no title without Okafor and Jones, and no shot at a second without Tatum and Giles.
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Valid point but I think that us true for any player on any team unless your name is LeBron
 
Mgkcbb said:
I think people are also failing to grasp that having Grayson Allen as a sophomore and junior doesn't keep you from signing other players. Duke signed Harry Giles, Tatum, and Jackson all this year despite now having a bona-fide star in JR Grayson still on the roster.

So while I totally see what you're saying, you'd be crazy if you think Booker + Murray + Monk all as FR are better than 3 years of growth, experience, and development from Grayson Allen, who will probably end up with 2 more titles himself than those 3 combined.
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1st of all, having Grayson Allen as a sophomore and junior can absolutely keep you from signing certain players. Some players value playing time, and if they can get that playing time at Kentucky (because Kentucky and Duke do recruit the same players), why go to Duke? And vice versa, of course.

Also not willing to say he "will probably" end up with 2 more titles himself than those 3 combined. That's why the season is played, and Kentucky is viewed as one of the juggernauts this upcoming season as well. He could likely end up with just as many, or one more title than those 3.

Besides that, I'm not ready to concede that Grayson Allen was/will be better than any of those guy any certain year. Devin Booker was the better player their freshman year, in my opinion, Jamal Murray ended up being better last year (the last 3rd of the season or though, Murray was averaging about 25 per game), and I'm not entirely sure if he's going to be better than Malik Monk next year. Time will tell, but Monk is an insanely talented and incredibly explosive (scoring-wise, and athletically) 2 guard. Some terrific play-making ability too.

Grayson Allen is a very good college basketball player, he's being way overhyped in this thread though.

Mgkcbb said:
Valid point but I think that us true for any player on any team unless your name is LeBron
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What better way to make a point about very, very few players being able to win titles themselves than by using a guy that never played a second of college basketball as an example.
 
rockycard said:
So the kid might actually like college life, some on here sound bitter when a player actually stays in cbb for more than a few months.
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Amen. The more I read this board, the more I think I'm in the small minority of people who actually loved his college experience. Some of you guys make college seem like a damn prison.
 
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Rhavicc said:
It's a little bit different though. Like I said, teams from the 80's are nothing like teams from today, with all of the one and dones. At that time, Coach K had years to fix certain deficiencies. Now he's got to work with the chemistry, fix up individual deficiencies, find the best lineups, and find the most effective ways to use his players, and he has a few short months to do it in.

Duke's team has an outstanding chance to go far, or even all the way (and I hate saying that as a Kentucky fan), but that team has its share of notable deficiencies and worries right out of the gate.

- Giles comes off of ACL tears in both knees, and 2 minutes of playing time in between both ACL tears. Usually bad news for big guys, especially guys who are high energy/motor players like Giles. K is going to have to find a way to ease him back in, and do everything he can to avoid a third ACL tear throughout the year.

- Same deal with Jefferson. A big guy with a foot injury is never good. Gonna have to ease him back in, figure out the best role for him with a mostly new team around him, and you'll have to hope he can play that the same level that he did before his injury.

- Jayson Tatum has to become a better teammate, and a better defender. Right now, he is a black hole, and everybody who has watched him knows it. Not only that, but the shots he has displayed him taking are pretty awful shots too. He's going to have to learn to become more efficient, play smarter, make easy plays, and play hard consistently, because he does have the tools to be a good defender at the college level. The extra issue with Tatum is that throughout his career, he's been an absolutely awful 3 point shooter, and that's with a high school line. Not once has he been above 30% in a season, in high school or AAU ball. Will be interesting to see where he fits in K's offense. Put him at power forward, and you may have issues because he's only 204 pounds, and he still wouldn't give you that stretch 4 dimension that K loves. Put him at the 3, and you have a good slasher, but you also end up with more defenders packing in driving lanes and clogging things up for your teammates.

- Grayson Allen will also need to have a better shot selection, adjust to a new, smaller role, and he'll have to become a better defender. Also, cut the tripping BS out.

- Frank Jackson has a long way to go to be a good facilitator and point guard. He can score the basketball, probably pretty inconsistent for now but he can absolutely fill it up some nights. We'll see if he has the point guard skills to run a next-level type of offense though.


You were cooler when you had a sig with tits in it.
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This is pretty bad. Regarding Giles, he was MVP during the 2015 EYBL and dominated that summer playing for team USA as well. This was all after his first ACL tear which was also the more serious injury. This is why he has stayed as the number 1 or 2 rated player on every list, because he returns from his original injury and dominated his peers just as he did pre-injury. It is fine to have opinions but blatantly making up stuff or pretending to know something is pretty lame.

For Grayson Allen, he played 2 guard and was the focus (along with Ingram) of all defenses yet he still shot almost 47% from the field including over 50% from the field and 42% from 3. A shooting guard with this type of efficiency has excellent shot selection.

Other than two or three all star games, you have never seen Tatum play (basing this on your comments about Giles so I doubt you have seen Tatum). His 3 point shooting has consistently gotten better and there is reason to think he will be solid based on his free throw shooting. You are also going WAY overboard saying he is a blackhole and needs to improve as a teammate. Based on your comments, how can such a scrub be a top 5 player in the class?

The last thing I will add is that even with all your criticism of Duke's players, we have a pretty significant edge when comparing rosters with UK. I am not sure one player on UK cracks the starting lineup(MAYBE Fox if he is a better shooter than most think) for Duke and that is not hyperbole.
 
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Mgkcbb said:
I think people are also failing to grasp that having Grayson Allen as a sophomore and junior doesn't keep you from signing other players. Duke signed Harry Giles, Tatum, and Jackson all this year despite now having a bona-fide star in JR Grayson still on the roster.

So while I totally see what you're saying, you'd be crazy if you think Booker + Murray + Monk all as FR are better than 3 years of growth, experience, and development from Grayson Allen, who will probably end up with 2 more titles himself than those 3 combined.
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This ar
HuffyJB said:
And Okafor and Jones would have no title without Grayson Allen.
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Who were the more important players on that team? Then think about how wrong OP is.
 
Let me put it like this - Grayson Allen gives Duke a greater chance at a title individually both this year and next year than Devin Booker did for Kentucky at his FR year.

Nobody can really argue than Grayson Allen is substantially better as a JR than Booker was as a FR.
 
If Grayson can have a season similar to the one he just had then I would take 3 years of Grayson over 3 OADs at the 2 guard spot. Last year Grayson averaged 21/4/3 on 45/41/83 shooting numbers and a 61% TS%. Most OADs dont put up those kind of numbers. He had a better year than Murray last year and I believe he will have a better year than Monk this year. He didnt get that many minutes as a freshman but if you look at his per 40 numbers as a freshman they are very similar to Booker's per 40. So ya I would take 3 years of Grayson Allen over Booker/Murray/Monk.
 
Mgkcbb said:
Let me put it like this - Grayson Allen gives Duke a greater chance at a title individually both this year and next year than Devin Booker did for Kentucky at his FR year.

Nobody can really argue than Grayson Allen is substantially better as a JR than Booker was as a FR.
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Grayson as a soph was far superior than Booker as a freshman. Its not like Booker lit the world on fire as a freshman
 
Grayson Allen is the absolute exception. For every Grayson Allen, there are 100 three year players who aren't close to a OAD.

So, this is basically saying Kyle Guy will be the exception. It makes it a bold, bold statement by the OP. We'll see if he's right.
 
duke4life831 said:
Grayson as a soph was far superior than Booker as a freshman. Its not like Booker lit the world on fire as a freshman
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And NBA rookie Booker is significantly better than sophomore Grayson Allen. Point?
Freshman Jamal Murray was arguably a better player than sophomore Grayson Allen.
 
tw3301 said:
I'm still trying to figure out why Kyle Guy is mentioned in the title of this Grayson Allen thread...
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perfectsense.gif
 
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tw3301 said:
I'm still trying to figure out why Kyle Guy is mentioned in the title of this Grayson Allen thread...
Click to expand...

Oh I remember.
Yeah, sorry OP. Kyle Guy will be a good shooter, but he's never going to be some great player.
 
Rhavicc said:
The point I'm about to make is a total side-point. It's just a bonus for having players of that caliber.

KAT contributed to Kentucky in the form of being "the guy" on a great defensive team (and a historically good team). Plus, that stuff does pay off in recruiting. When you can point to the best bigs in the NBA, like KAT, AD, and Boogie, and note that every one of those guys came out of UK in a 5 year span, recruits take notice of that, which in turn, contributes to future teams in some manor.
In 3 more years, nobody is going to be saying "I want to go to Duke to be like Grayson Allen", and in 6 or 7 years, nobody's going to go to Virginia saying "I want to go to UVA to be like Kyle Guy"

Hell, if Louisville produced good NBA players (and I absolutely do not mean this as a shot in any way, shape, of form, Louisville fans), then their recruiting would be much better. It's not like Louisville doesn't get these kinds of players for a lack of trying. Pitino recruits them every year, they just can't get those guy because they don't produce really good NBA players.

The main point that needs to be made though, is it better to have Grayson Allen (or Kyle Guy, in the point that you're trying to make) for 3, or is it better to have Karl-Anthony Towns (or we'll go with Devin Booker if we're sticking strictly to 2 guards), then the next year have Jamal Murray, and then the 3rd year have Malik Monk?
Grayson Allen is arguably pretty close to his ceiling. His role is, yet again, about to change. First he was the 7th man or so down the roster, next he was "the guy" on a pretty limited Duke team, and now he has to revert back to being "just another player" on a Duke team that will have a few very capable scorers in the starting line-up, but no facilitators.
He won't match his numbers from this past season. More offensive firepower, and plus he does have to play with the black hole that NASA has decided to name "Jayson Tatum".

Grayson Allen could very well not be as good as Malik Monk, he could very well not be as good Josh Jackson, or Markelle Fultz. Is he the best player from the 2014 class to remain in college basketball now that Ulis has signed an agent and is going to the NBA? Quite possibly, but that definitely doesn't mean that there isn't a younger, better 2 guard out there that is about to come into college basketball.

Right now, as a UK fan, I'm perfectly content with the fact that we got Devin Booker, and then Jamal Murray over 2 years of Grayson Allen.
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I have noticed that you UK guys, on Rupp Rafters, love to talk about what a ball hog Tatum is and how nobody else will get any shots. I think you guys say that out of spite. Sorry he didn't choose UK but come on. He isn't in high school anymore and I'm pretty sure Coach K won't allow him to just constantly hog the ball. He is playing with a wee bit more talent than he was in his school. You guys need to stop with that bullshit.
 
bkingUK said:
Yeah, Grayson Allen wasn't better than Booker, Murray and probably won't be better than Monk. Okay, maybe by the time he is a junior he'll be better than one of three UK freshman shooting guards (Monk) in a best case scenario -- even in that year still won't be as good as Booker or Murray.

Duke fans really want him to be that guy everyone hates, but it's hard to hate him as much as a Laettner because Laettner was a lot better than that kid. Let the truth train roll on.

Let's flash forward 365 days where Duke fans act surprise Grayson Allen comes back for a 4th year because he "loves" college basketball.

Or is it because no one will draft him for good reasons?

Yes. Yes it is.
Click to expand...

Lolll. Fortune teller here. Another UK dbag. Yeah, he will be a first rounder next year. Sweet Jesus, you haters.
 
Rhavicc said:
It's a little bit different though. Like I said, teams from the 80's are nothing like teams from today, with all of the one and dones. At that time, Coach K had years to fix certain deficiencies. Now he's got to work with the chemistry, fix up individual deficiencies, find the best lineups, and find the most effective ways to use his players, and he has a few short months to do it in.

Duke's team has an outstanding chance to go far, or even all the way (and I hate saying that as a Kentucky fan), but that team has its share of notable deficiencies and worries right out of the gate.

- Giles comes off of ACL tears in both knees, and 2 minutes of playing time in between both ACL tears. Usually bad news for big guys, especially guys who are high energy/motor players like Giles. K is going to have to find a way to ease him back in, and do everything he can to avoid a third ACL tear throughout the year.

- Same deal with Jefferson. A big guy with a foot injury is never good. Gonna have to ease him back in, figure out the best role for him with a mostly new team around him, and you'll have to hope he can play that the same level that he did before his injury.

- Jayson Tatum has to become a better teammate, and a better defender. Right now, he is a black hole, and everybody who has watched him knows it. Not only that, but the shots he has displayed him taking are pretty awful shots too. He's going to have to learn to become more efficient, play smarter, make easy plays, and play hard consistently, because he does have the tools to be a good defender at the college level. The extra issue with Tatum is that throughout his career, he's been an absolutely awful 3 point shooter, and that's with a high school line. Not once has he been above 30% in a season, in high school or AAU ball. Will be interesting to see where he fits in K's offense. Put him at power forward, and you may have issues because he's only 204 pounds, and he still wouldn't give you that stretch 4 dimension that K loves. Put him at the 3, and you have a good slasher, but you also end up with more defenders packing in driving lanes and clogging things up for your teammates.

- Grayson Allen will also need to have a better shot selection, adjust to a new, smaller role, and he'll have to become a better defender. Also, cut the tripping BS out.

- Frank Jackson has a long way to go to be a good facilitator and point guard. He can score the basketball, probably pretty inconsistent for now but he can absolutely fill it up some nights. We'll see if he has the point guard skills to run a next-level type of offense though.




You were cooler when you had a sig with tits in it.
Click to expand...

You and your hard on for Jayson Tatum. And you were relieved when you knew he wasn't going to UK, right?? I know you will say yes you were but.....LOLLLL.
 
JasonSpear said:
I'm sure NBA draft stock means zilch to a lot of UL fans. Not flaming, just saying. Haven't had a ton of guys high up on the draft charts in the last 15 years.
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And still have the same amount of titles as your team in that span. Not flaming here either, just saying.
 
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rockycard said:
And still have the same amount of titles as your team in that span. Not flaming here either, just saying.
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MaleDigitalDalmatian.gif


If we're going down that avenue... how many Final Fours? Since both schools hang those banners as well.
 
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