As long as they aren't a bunch of bull dykes. UK has a couple smokeshows so they're worth watching.
IU and UK fans. It's time.
- Thread starter lurkeraspect84
- Start date
Fans benefit the most.
IU once held the overall record.
14-11 IU in 82. (no UK fan says anything about discounting those early wins) They went on winning streaks of 6 and 5. That's quite the head start but that's also included in head to head.
Early 90s' they had a good lead.
Every changed with Pitino.
32-25 w/ IU having scoreboard.
Tale of two halves.
I'm looking forward to the 3rd arc.
Kentucky's Record versus Indiana
www.bigbluehistory.net
IU once held the overall record.
14-11 IU in 82. (no UK fan says anything about discounting those early wins) They went on winning streaks of 6 and 5. That's quite the head start but that's also included in head to head.
Early 90s' they had a good lead.
Every changed with Pitino.
32-25 w/ IU having scoreboard.
Tale of two halves.
I'm looking forward to the 3rd arc.
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@lurkeraspect84 is on boner alert.
Always cracks me up when people say "it doesn't work" even though it's won multiple titles and usually leads to deep tourney runs. That logic also assumes that Calipari is maximizing the potential of his OADs, and we know that's not the case.
Better than the average P6 school with juniors and seniors? Yes. Absolutely. The common denominator is talent. Kentucky and Duke are loading up on 5-star recruits and future NBA players. Your average power school that loads up on fringe top 100 players can't bridge the talent gap, even if a lot of their guys stay for 3 or 4 years. The stat is now 10 out of 16 of the Duke/UK OAd teams making the regional finals, which is bananas.
Absolutely. It's hilarious when people talk about how successful programs are that keep their 3 and 4 star recruits for multiple years. No coach on planet Earth is taking 5-6 promising projects over 5-6 surefire first round picks.
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Duke and Kentucky are two schools....Lots more have won w'o going the route they did. If the OAD model was better, UK wouldnt be chasing their first FF since 2015....title since 2012...Duke with no title since 2015...Meanwhile Kansas, Nova, Baylor, UVA, UConn, UL, and UNC have won titles, with Jr/Sr laden teams. Schools like Wisky, MSU, Gonzaga have multiple FF's, deep NCAAT runs. You can add Houston to that list as well... Even during the OAD era, its heyday, ONLY UK won a title with a OAD dominant led team.
Regional finals are great...But we are talking two teams. And even with those 10 of 16 regional finals, what do they have to show? Exactly two titles with OAD dominant , lead teams.
I speak for myself. IU v UK is my fav game other than PU. I've been to Rupp 1 time for this game I'd I rank it top 3 ever, even with a loss. This match up has everything that is CBB.
The game in NCAA game Des Moines ( i live here) was a reminder. It was a 50 50 crowd.. We all bitched and drank together. NO ONE got crazy. An absolute awesome experience.
It works for winning, sure....Making deep runs---Possible. Buyt titles?
OAD era started in 2006. Exasctly two teams have won a title, led by teams dominant with OAD, kids.
2012- UK
2015-Duke.
2006- Florida--No OAD
2007-Florida--No OAD
2008--Kansas- No OAD
2009- UNC--No OAD
2010- Duke-- Nope
2011- UConn--Nope
2012 UK---3---MKG, AD and Teague
2013 UL--Nope
2014 UConn-Nope
2015 Duke--3---Winslow, Okafor and Jones
2016 Villanova-Nope
2017-UNC- No
2018-Villanova- No
2019-UVA---No
2020--COVID---Millions of OAD's----Ok, that was really bad.
2021--Baylor- NO
2022- Kansas- NO
2023 UConn--NO
How are teams with multiple OAD's better? UConn has won 3 national titles with zero OAD kids... Kansas has won two .....Villanova two....UNC two...
Because UK and Duke went to 10 of 16 regional finals, that makes the OAD model, better?
C'mon.
That is the point I've been making. There hasn't been a one and done player in the title game since 2015 that I can recall off the top of my head.
Heck, I'm not sure there has been a one and done kid in the Final 4 since 2015. Brunson and Bridges were Freshmen when Nova won in 2016, but they stayed through their junior years.
Yeah, they EVENTUALLY became NBA players, but they developed into NBA players.
My point has been the same since the beginning. Experience wins titles, youth goes home early.
If you're going to use one and done talent, you better have a generational, or transcendent player, if not, you better have at least a few very talented juniors and seniors.
This is exactly what I have been saying for several pages.
One-and-done kids are much different than kids like Jalen Brunson, Divincenzo and Miles Bridges, who developed into NBA prospects after 3 years.
Experience wins titles in today’s game. All the teams with one-and-done kids have gone home early since the 2016 season.
Most one-and-done kids simply have potential. They have height, length and athletesism, but most of them aren't polished enough to carry a team to a FF.
College ball turned into a veterans game with elite offenses doing most of the winning.
Not to mention the help those OAD's had. 2012 UK had Jones and Lamb---along with Miller. MOF, if not for a possible NBA lock-out, those two probably are not at UK.
2015 Duke---Okafor, Winslow and Jones---But they had a senior guard in Cook(15ppg)..Jefferson, a Jr. Sulamon---Jr---7ppg.. Grayson Allen---a freshman yes, but not a OAD, and who was vital in ther win over Wisconsin.
Those two teams had other pieces that were not OAD, that who were vital to both winning a title.
Dude...come on. Look at the sample size. How many OAD-heavy teams have there been? It started around 2007 and consists of basically two programs.
Compare the percentage of OAD teams that win it all to the others.
OAD tool center stage in 2006. Basically a UK/Duke momopoly. How many titles did they win?
Two....And look at the HELP those teams had. 2012 UK had Jones, Lamb and Miller....2015 Duke had Cook, Jefferson and Sulamon---juniors and seniors, who were vital.
Doesn't matter how many there have been----Unless there were only two----then yo can say the model was perfect.
20010 UK team led by Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe---Lost to a veteran , tough WVU team.
2011 UK made a crazy run.....
Two titles.....Sample size of 17 NCAAT is pretty decent.
Seems your guy Self has done just fine without the services of the OAD....
Like I said, OAD wins....makes good runs. But rarely produced titles. And a handful of FF's
2012 UK had a very thin roster. AD and MKG were incredible, but without the NBA lockout, there is no Terrance Jones, Darius Miller and Doron Lamb.
Also, AD needed to be AD. If he was a regular NBA prospect, UK doesn't win the title.
When you look at UK, almost every NCAAT loss, was to a lower seed and a team that was an underdog.
Having elite NBA bound talent is great… until the kitchen gets really hot, then, their lack of experience rears its ugly head.
I believe most of Duke's losses have been to lower seeded teams too.
You have to have experience and that experience has to be developed by great coaching. That’s what we have seen every year since 2016.
Having elite NBA bound talent is great… until the kitchen gets really hot, then, their lack of experience rears its ugly head.
I believe most of Duke's losses have been to lower seeded teams too.
You have to have experience and that experience has to be developed by great coaching. That’s what we have seen every year since 2016.
With covid, so many teams have 5-6 year players. The transfer portal has changed everything as well. I would like to see it go to one transfer without sitting out sitting out a year. Transfer more than once, then you sit out a year.
OADs have almost been replaced with OADs. Talent is a talent some are slower developed. They need years to get to what some freshmen can do. They need weight and training. Some can come in and win titles.
It's going to be interesting when we don't have super seniors anymore and get back to 4-year players for the most part.
Then the traditional OADs will have a larger impact.
OADs have almost been replaced with OADs. Talent is a talent some are slower developed. They need years to get to what some freshmen can do. They need weight and training. Some can come in and win titles.
It's going to be interesting when we don't have super seniors anymore and get back to 4-year players for the most part.
Then the traditional OADs will have a larger impact.
Two titles...
UK 2012
Duke 2015
UCONN won more titles(3) themselves, than UK and Duke's OAD facotires did combined. With zero OAD's. Shit, damn near as many FF's.
Is the goal not to win the NCAAT? Yes or no? Or is the goal to make 10 of 16 Regional Finals?
This is the wrong year to be young. It might be the oldest college basketball has ever been.
I'm sure this is the oldest. Guessing, but would bet on it.
*think this is the last year for super seniors.
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To be fair, i'm pretty sure when he wrote that post it was before covid and prior to the transfer portal and super seniors.
I'm guessing ~2018.
How many teams in the past few years owe success to players who wouldn't be eligible under rules from just a handful of years ago?
New modern era or an asterisk?
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The average P6 school----Bro, really? YOu gonna compare UK/Duke to tje average P6 school? C'mon man. I've heard of using bullshit to make an argument---but my goodness.
Here's another stat that is BANANAS...
Uconn and KU's NON-OAD teams have played in 12 of 16 Regiona finals in that same span.
Still doesn't make it right....But couldnt have been 2017. He said Duke and UK had played in 10 of 16 regional finals...OAD era started in 2006. If written in 2017, how was there 16 Elite 8's?
IU is pretty damn young...
XJ, Galloway, Sparks(transfer) and Walker(teansfer)---Only upperclassmen
Mgbako-FR
Ware-SO(Transfer)
Reneau-SO
Gunn-SO
Banks-SO
Cupps-FR
Newton-FR
It is....And thank goodness. Theres a dude somewhere, cannot recall name or school, whos in his 8th season...
Edit: Dejuan Clayton. Was in same class of Tatum, Ball and Fox.
He decided to return to Coppin for what would have been his fourth and final season of eligibility in the 2020–21 season, and that’s where things go off the rails. He played in 16 games that season, but 2020–21 didn’t count towards any player’s eligibility, so Clayton hit the transfer portal that spring to play another year.He picked a Hartford program fresh off a trip to the NCAA tournament in 2021, but suffered a shoulder injury after just two games that caused him to miss the remainder of the season. That season became the second medical redshirt. With Hartford announcing plans to transition down to Division III and transitioning to D-I independent status for 2022–23, Clayton entered the transfer portal again and resurfaced at Cal. He missed the season’s first 13 games with an injury, then suited up in nine games before being shut down for the season with an undisclosed illness. But by playing in fewer than 10 games and under 30% of Cal’s games, he is eligible for yet another medical redshirt assuming he is cleared by the NCAA.
He graduated HS in 2016...
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It's more impressive for a coach to take young talent to the FF/Championships than it is for a coach to rely on veterans and 5-8-year players.
Cal did it and not only won the title but tied for the most games won in a season. The other guy is in the HOF as well. Only some will challenge themselves.
It's easier for coaches who hold kids back and teach them slowly. Some can't even do it then.
Most coaches at most schools don't/can't recruit top talent and win. That's one of the points I think DD touches on. In a small snippet of time. It can be done if done correctly and done over and over with a high degree of success.
Never said it wasn't impressive....Or successful. Just not as successful.
You think everyone but Duke and UK, "held kids back"?
You don't think Cal relied on Miller, Lamb and Jones? Or K didn't rely on Cook, Jefferson and Sulamon?
No one is holding kids back----those coaches just decided to not recruit OAD kids. Seems it worked out ok---Since those schools won 14 of the 16 NCAAT's in that span.
Never argued any different. It was done with success---Just not as much success.
To argue the OAD route is more successful is sort of silly. OAD led teams won 2 titles in 16 seasons....C'mon, man.
Let's not put words in each other's mouth.
There's no picking sides here. Just talking about stats and what's been done in that window of OAD prior to covid and transfer portals.
What words did I put in your mouth? You said....
So I asked....."So you think everyone but Duke/UK, hold kids back..:
Exactly what words did I put in your mouth---that you didn't already use?
