Helms Titles

[CB3UK]

I get its TODAYS measure----And that is fine. But it wasn't prior to 1939. So is everything before that just ignored? How do we handled the consensus of the NIT being the "better tournament"

From its onset and at least into the mid-1950s, the NIT was regarded as the most prestigious showcase for college basketball. All-American at Princeton and later NBA champion with the New York Knicks and United States Senator Bill Bradley stated:




And I see what ya did there.....I motion we also include 1979(NIT).

Well the NIT was founded in 38 and the NCAAT in 39 IIRC correctly. Somewhere in the 70s the NIT became shit. So that's one issue. Do you draw a hardline somewhere in the 70s and everything before that NIT counts? Eh. I think you do what we do, use the NCAAT as today's standard.

I've always just considered any title claimed before those two tournaments to be retroactively claimed nonsense. I guess I could go back and see how many extra titles Kentucky could claim. Maybe it will push ahead to UCLA and #1 where we should be.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Well the NIT was founded in 38 and the NCAAT in 39 IIRC correctly. Somewhere in the 70s the NIT became shit. So that's one issue. Do you draw a hardline somewhere in the 70s and everything before that NIT counts? Eh. I think you do what we do, use the NCAAT as today's standard.

I've always just considered any title claimed before those two tournaments to be retroactively claimed nonsense. I guess I could go back and see how many extra titles Kentucky could claim. Maybe it will push ahead to UCLA and #1 where we should be.

I don't disagree----but I mean, not everyone see's it that way. Yes the NIT/NCAAT are only one year apart, but the NIT usually attracted the better teams, and garnered more attention; was played in New York. NIT started to lose its luster for 2 reasons: NCAA quit allowing teams to play in both in like, 1953 or something---AND, in 1973, I think, Marquette declined invitation to the NCAAT, because they were not happy with their seed, or region. Something like that. Anyways, after that, NCAA said if you were invited to the NCAAT and declined such bid, you were ineligible for the NIT. Then of course NBC bought the rights to the NCAAT, started broadcasting games, moving the NCAAT title game to MOnday, and POOF----NIT sent to the projects.

So we count JUST NCAAT titles---and I am fine with that. MOF, I agree with that. But to be fair in all this, not all NCAAT titles are the same.

At the end of the day if a school wants to claim something AWARDED to them, I have zero problems with that. Its not like said schools "claimed" such title----it was awarded. Much different than all the CLAIMED national titles in football.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Speaking of being wrong, have you ever seen me critisize Bill Self? I've been nothing but complimentary and have said nothing about his transgressions.

I mean, this was just a few posts back…

And it's awful rich of a KU fan to talk about another school paying kids, or doing underhanded shit. Wow.

If you’re gonna accuse Self/KU of knowing about payments, without proof, don’t pull the “I need proof” card regarding Hagans.

KU's fanbase has their fair share of those types of fans too, but you act like it's just UK fans.

Rafters has its reputation for a reason. Whether the average poster there represents the average UK fan, I don’t know. But if you’re going to generalize about KU fans (especially about stuff that isn’t even true like Helms bragging), then you can’t complain about generalizations.

 

[kyjeff1]

Jeff I like you...Good, fun poster. But brother there's no way you are this naïve. Especially in today's CBB world. Kids were getting paid. Everywhere. If you think UK was landing dudes like they were, without the benefit of the dollar, then cme on down here to Southern Indiana----I have some great beachfront properties I'd like to show you here.

Wow, ummmm thanks?

I'm just not into making accusations without knowing the facts.

Where does it end? Are we saying everyone down to Cleveland State cheating? If so, how?

I mean, the only school I accuse of anything, cheating-wise, is uNC.

I don't care about payments, those kids are making their schools a ton of money, but when you create fake, no show classes just to keep kids eligible, thus in turn creating an additional issue, where real students thought they had a legit degree, you should be seriously punished.

Even in all these back-and-forths with exitfagger, I never go after KU, or Self for cheating and I've always said Louisville got an unfair punishment.

What I consider cheating, is just different than what you guys condider cheating.

 

[kyjeff1]

I mean, this was just a few posts back…



If you’re gonna accuse Self/KU of knowing about payments, without proof, don’t pull the “I need proof” card regarding Hagans.


Rafters has its reputation for a reason. Whether the average poster there represents the average UK fan, I don’t know. But if you’re going to generalize about KU fans (especially about stuff that isn’t even true like Helms bragging), then you can’t complain about generalizations.

Rafters has it's reputation, because there are hundreds of people that post there on it's slowest day. There isn't another board like it for college sports.

But you choose to focus on the bullshit posts and homers, instead of the fown to earth guys, of which there are many. But you do you.

I don’t even go to KU boards, I can only imagine the 20 people on there are real fair to non-KU programs ALL the time.

 

[Five Nattys]

Do better research...

Paul Helms was from Cali, bro....Helms Athletic FOundation's headquarters was in LA.....

Helms Hall in LA is/ws widely considered the best Sports Museum in the country. It was developed by William Schroder----also from LA.

Well excuse me for mistakenly replacing California with Kansas. it doesn't change the tenor of the discussion. These titles are irrelevant. Plain and simple. Or are you defending them because the Hoosiers include their Helms championship?

 

[Five Nattys]

It’s not practical for you to find ONE example of something that you claim happens constantly? 😂 🤣

I rest my case. Now please stop making things up. Thanks in advance.



That’s funny, considering it’s clear that Helms-bashing is just a desperate excuse to attack a specific program out of jealousy.

no jealousy here...... 5>4

 

[ExitFlagger]

Jeff I like you...Good, fun poster. But brother there's no way you are this naïve. Especially in today's CBB world. Kids were getting paid. Everywhere. If you think UK was landing dudes like they were, without the benefit of the dollar, then cme on down here to Southern Indiana----I have some great beachfront properties I'd like to show you here.

You post on Rafters, right? Shouldn’t surprise you. I’m not sure there’s a single poster there who would admit that Kentucky players were getting benefits. Some actually believe it because they’re clueless, and others just use it as ammo in pissing contests. “We may not be better on the court these days, but we have better morals!” (Two minutes before threatening some poor ref’s family). 🤣

 

[ExitFlagger]

Rafters has it's reputation, because there are hundreds of people that post there on it's slowest day. There isn't another board like it for college sports.

But you choose to focus on the bullshit posts and homers, instead of the fown to earth guys, of which there are many. But you do you.

I don’t even go to KU boards, I can only imagine the 20 people on there are real fair to non-KU programs ALL the time.

And you say I’ll defend anything. 🤣

There are plenty of high traffic forums that don’t have a reputation for being full of hateful idiots. And if you go to a KU board, you definitely aren’t going to see a high percentage of hate threads.

 

[ExitFlagger]

no jealousy here...... 5>4

I’d imagine a UConn fan would need to find out what happened over the last decade before evaluating that.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Wow, ummmm thanks?

I'm just not into making accusations without knowing the facts.

You mean you’re not into accusing anyone in the Kentucky program. You have no problem with saying the KU staff was involved in payments, or labeling players rapists before there’s even a charge.

Even in all these back-and-forths with exitfagger, I never go after KU, or Self for cheating and I've always said Louisville got an unfair punishment.

What I consider cheating, is just different than what you guys condider cheating.

Exitfagger…pretty clever. Gonna drop a “gayhawk” on me next? 🤣

 

[Five Nattys]

I’d imagine a UConn fan would need to find out what happened over the last decade before evaluating that.

UConn has won five, Kansas four. What has happened over the last decade that changes the simple math?

 

[ExitFlagger]

UConn has won five, Kansas four. What has happened over the last decade that changes the simple math?

Yeah, I guess you probably wouldn’t know.

What inspired you to create your Five Nattys acct a week ago? Is that when you found out?

 

[IUfanBorden]

Well excuse me for mistakenly replacing California with Kansas. it doesn't change the tenor of the discussion. These titles are irrelevant. Plain and simple. Or are you defending them because the Hoosiers include their Helms championship?

I mean Cali, Kansas----Tomato---Tamato, right?

Only He;lms titles IU has, coincide with NCAAT titles: 53, 76 and 81. Bakery man ****ed us in 1940, and named USC national champs.

Why are they irrelevant? They were awarded. Are college football titles before BCS/CFP, irrelevant? Oh, yeh, that's right---since those titles were awarded at the time, and not retroactively, they mean more...

Got it.

I couldn't care less. Its a silly argument. Now, go retire the jersey's of 4 dudes for losing in the Elite 8.

Oh, wait....

 

[IUfanBorden]

Wow, ummmm thanks?

I'm just not into making accusations without knowing the facts.

Where does it end? Are we saying everyone down to Cleveland State cheating? If so, how?

I mean, the only school I accuse of anything, cheating-wise, is uNC.

I don't care about payments, those kids are making their schools a ton of money, but when you create fake, no show classes just to keep kids eligible, thus in turn creating an additional issue, where real students thought they had a legit degree, you should be seriously punished.

Even in all these back-and-forths with exitfagger, I never go after KU, or Self for cheating and I've always said Louisville got an unfair punishment.

What I consider cheating, is just different than what you guys condider cheating.

Why do you accuse UNC of cheating? They were cleared by the NCAA.

You don't care about payments? Interesting. Payments before NIL was illegal, bro. MOF, it still is. I make my boss a ton of money---does that mean I can rob him? Pretty sue that wouldn't hold up to well in court. But JMO.

To be clear----You don't consider paying kids $$$ to cme to your school, is cheating? Ok.

Where does it end? It does not. Unless you believe kids were saying no to $$$$, to go play somewhere else for free.

 

[Courtsensetwo]

. Plain and simple. Or are you defending them because the Hoosiers include their Helms championship?

We do?

 

[IUfanBorden]

We do?

Nope----and IF we did, well they would be pretty fukin legit. After all, the only Helms titles awarded to IU, coincide with titles IU won----1953, 1976, and 1981.

 

[AWilli6995]

IMO no fan here should be calling anyone a cheater because every school has had their share of drama. Fans of schools with a rap sheet a mile long should really chill with that talk because a cheater who's calling someone else a cheater really doesn't make you look smart.

 

[cdbearde]

IMO no fan here should be calling anyone a cheater because every school has had their share of drama. Fans of schools with a rap sheet a mile long should really chill with that talk because a cheater who's calling someone else a cheater really doesn't make you look smart.

 

[kyjeff1]

You mean you’re not into accusing anyone in the Kentucky program. You have no problem with saying the KU staff was involved in payments, or labeling players rapists before there’s even a charge.


Exitfagger…pretty clever. Gonna drop a “gayhawk” on me next? 🤣

I did what?

Also, I'm not the one who accused anybody of anything, the law did.

Are you saying those players didn't shoot coeds with pellet guns?

Are you saying the Texas transfer to KU did nothing wrong? If he didn’t, why did Self kick him off the team? Maybe talk to Self about labeling him as a rapist, not me.

Are you saying my eyes were deceiving me when DeSousa tried to hit someone with a chair?

Lastly, show me where I said anything about the Adidas stuff. I'll wait.

 

[kyjeff1]

Why do you accuse UNC of cheating? They were cleared by the NCAA.

You don't care about payments? Interesting. Payments before NIL was illegal, bro. MOF, it still is. I make my boss a ton of money---does that mean I can rob him? Pretty sue that wouldn't hold up to well in court. But JMO.

To be clear----You don't consider paying kids $$$ to cme to your school, is cheating? Ok.

Where does it end? It does not. Unless you believe kids were saying no to $$$$, to go play somewhere else for free.

Yeah, where do the accusations end? Have you personally seen money transfers happen? So we're all just assuming.

And yeah, you make your boss a lot of money, but you get paid, don't you? You're not working for free, but those players were.

And yes, uNC cheated, SACS and the NCAA were too chicken shit to punish a blue blood. That was systemic cheating, I don't need the NCAA to confirm it.

 

[AWilli6995]

Yeah, where do the accusations end? Have you personslly seen money transfers happen? So we're all just assuming.

And yeah, you make your biss a lot of money, but you get paid, don't you? You're not working for free, but those players were.

And yes, uNC cheated, SACS and the NCAA were too chicken shit to punish a blue blood. That was systemic cheating, I don't need the NCAA to confirm it.

How many times has UK been hit by the NCAA? Also it doesn't matter if you paid for those transgressions, you got caught cheating.

Bottom line is everyone has done it but it's crazy when a UK fan is going to call someone a cheater knowing that their history show's otherwise.

 

[brooky03]

Syracuse has all you cheaters beat. We let guys play basketball after they took 2, sometimes 3, hits of a marijuana cigarette.

The NCAA considered the death penalty.

 

[ExitFlagger]

I did what?

Also, I'm not the one who accused anybody of anything, the law did.

Are you saying those players didn't shoot coeds with pellet guns?

Are you saying the Texas transfer to KU did nothing wrong? If he didn’t, why did Self kick him off the team? Maybe talk to Self about labeling him as a rapist, not me.

Are you saying my eyes were deceiving me when DeSousa tried to hit someone with a chair?

Lastly, show me where I said anything about the Adidas stuff. I'll wait.

Rape is one thing, but bringing up pellet guns in every other post is weird. LOL

Never said that Morris was innocent. He probably isn’t. But you were calling him a rapist like it was a proven fact before he was even charged with it. You’ve also accused KU players of being involved in the sexual assault case from years ago, even though none were ever charged. And I just quoted you saying that KU fans shouldn’t talk about paying players, so I’m not sure why you’re denying that.

Again, the point is that you demand proof of one and not the other. It’s not complicated.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

How many times has UK been hit by the NCAA? Also it doesn't matter if you paid for those transgressions, you got caught cheating.

Bottom line is everyone has done it but it's crazy when a UK fan is going to call someone a cheater knowing that their history show's otherwise.

I'm just glad we learned our lesson back in the 80's.

 

[ExitFlagger]

I'm just glad we learned our lesson back in the 80's.

I’m glad that Memphis and Umass learned their lessons after Calipari left. Good for them.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I’m glad that Memphis and Umass learned their lessons after Calipari left. Good for them.

That has nothing to do with UK. Also, everyone knows Calipari was cleared in both cases.

*and Memphis didn't btw. Memphis had issues before Cal and after.

 

[ExitFlagger]

That has nothing to do with UK. Also, everyone knows Calipari was cleared in both cases.

*and Memphis didn't btw. Memphis had issues before Cal and after.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Again nothing to do with UK.

Some haters have convinced themselves everyone does it because they do it.

It's flawed thinking.

News articles have been redacted or put on the back burner for suggesting as much.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Calipari is either clean or never been caught by those hellbent on chasing him.

Those chasing are/were relentless. They made up stories. Still couldn't find shit. Unlike other coaches.

Maybe he's just smarter than Self, Willams etc?

Take away their cheating ways, UK would be dominant currently. But we're not and some credit to paying off players from other teams. UL, KU, Adidas. Zona. all tried to keep up.

Any means necessary.

No scandal at UK for over 30 years.

Assumptions and stereotypes are a crutch for those who do. actually, cheat.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Again nothing to do with UK.

Some haters have convinced themselves everyone does it because they do it.

It's flawed thinking.

News articles have been redacted or put on the back burner for suggesting as much.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Proof

 

[ExitFlagger]

Calipari is either clean or never been caught by those hellbent on chasing him.

Those chasing are/were relentless. They made up stories. Still couldn't find shit. Unlike other coaches.

Maybe he's just smarter than Self, Willams etc?

Take away their cheating ways, UK would be dominant currently. But we're not and some credit to paying off players from other teams. UL, KU, Adidas. Zona. all tried to keep up.

Any means necessary.

No scandal at UK for over 30 years.

Assumptions and stereotypes are a crutch for those who do. actually, cheat.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I love stats.

 

[ExitFlagger]

I love stats.

How much of UK’s past is tainted by cheating?

Imagine how dominant other programs could have been without their rampant cheating.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

How much of UK’s past is tainted by cheating?

Imagine how dominant other programs could have been without their rampant cheating.

Modern era? Once.

Other had to do with betting which didn't benefit any team.

Now answer the same with KU.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Modern era? Once.

Other had to do with betting which didn't benefit any team.

Now answer the same with KU.

Modern era? So timeframing is cool when discussing infractions, but not accomplishments? 🤣

Is there a manual for this?

 

[ExitFlagger]

Can’t begin to imagine how much Calipari would have dominated if he’d landed Silvio De Sousa and Billy “never played a game” Preston instead of those paltry #1 classes.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Modern era? So timeframing is cool when discussing infractions, but not accomplishments? 🤣

Is there a manual for this?

I gave both. Modenr era was an ode to young ppl.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I'm open to proof and dialog.