Very good and interesting, but conference championships are given way too much weight. The variance in points should not out-weigh NC (which should be worth more) Also, how do you define “power conference” vs. non when deciding 4 points or 5? Is it just based on being ranked or are there a certain arbitrary list of conferences you designate as “Power”?
50 Greatest Programs of All-Time (Updated Through 2021)
- Thread starter dukedevilz
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Wining a title, doesn't make a conference better. UK and Florida have won 5 of those...Arkansas was a gift from the SWC. No the Big 10 hasn't had a title since MSU won it in 2000. BUT----Since then they have had 6 different schools reach the FF---Indiana, Illinois, MSU, OSU, Michigan and Wisconsin. All 6 played for the title. So, since 2000, the Big 10 has had one title, but 6 runner-ups. That's a pretty impressive bride's maid.
IU runner-up 2002(ironic enough, to now Big 10 foe Maryland)
MSU: NC in 2000.Runner-up in 2009; FF in 2001, 05, 09, 10, 15 and 19.
OSU: Runner-up in 2007; FF in 2012.
Illinois: Runner-up 2005
Wisconsin: Runner-up 2015; FF in 2014, 2000
Michigan: Runner-up 2013 and 18.
I wouldn't call that mediocre, year after year....
Regular season titles only. Too much inconsistency with the conference tournaments. Pac-10/8 and Big Ten used to always rely on the regular season champ. Compound that with the fact that dozens and dozens of quality teams were independent in the 1970's. Only since multiple bids were granted to a single conference did independents start to flee from the independent status. So yeah, I just prefer to make the numbers look as comparable as possible.
Power Conferences are designated as ACC, Big East, Big 12/Big8, Big Ten, Pac 12/PCC, SEC. Obviously a lot of power schools today weren't always affiliated with one of these conferences (i.e. All Big East schools, Louisville, Arizona, West Virginia). You could argue that some of those conferences don't necessarily merit the full 5 points every year, but more often than not you're going to have at least 5 teams in the top 50.
A conference champion only gets 5 points. A national champion gets 71 points (1+2+3+5+10+20+30). That's a pretty significant gap, IMO.
So how many points should I reduce Carolina's aggregate score for being placed on probation during the 1960-61 season?
Should be bonus points for getting away with cheating for 20+ years too, IMO.
We are dealing with facts and the facts are UK got smacked more than once. But we should just focus on what happened on the court and IMO it’s UK, UNC and everybody else.
100 points at the least.
It’s not ground breaking news that UNC has been on probation once in their history.
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Not a fan of doing that, actually. It's revisionist history (you'll notice I also haven't removed any vacated titles or Final Fours). And it's very subjective. I mean, some schools did things that were way more egregious than others. I can't imagine actually deliberating on a system which delineates between the magnitude of each scandal.
Or giving much weight to the NCAA's determination of each scandal given their lack of subpoena power and, um, inconsistent enforcement.
Exactly. Sam Gilbert easily could have cost UCLA several national titles. Other schools were placed on probation for relatively minor infractions. NCAA has shown little to no consistency. And who even knows what any of these coaches/boosters/handlers have done in the dark? Many schools never had penalties levied against them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were running clean programs. Rules have been bent left and right, and I find no value in subjective interpretations.
Still IMO a program should be punished for breaking NCAA rules.
If you’re going to reward the NCAA championships, then the NCAA probations should count against them.
Might make sense if the NCAA wasn't so arbitrary with how they enforce the rule-breakers.
And a school is already punished for being placed on probation. Kentucky, for example, won the SEC outright with a 14-4 record in 1991. But, Miss. State and LSU, who both finished at 13-5, are given credit for being the regular season champs.
Dukedevilz: this can't be done in any meaningful way for these unrebutted reasons.
Uncfan in ky: still, it should be done because I say it should be done.
Dude, that had to take a lot of time and effort to compile; thanks for taking it on. Very cool! (And not just because Kentucky is #1, we already knew that, lol.)Congrats Kentucky. It's now official. Remember to double-click on the screenshots to expand the images. Let me know what you think. This idea was presented to me by @hailtoyourvictor.
A little surprised at Maryland being so far down the list; not sure why but I would have thought they would have been a little higher, but your numbers don't lie.
Again kudos sir.
...as if there were any doubt....
"They had it before you, they had it during you, they'll have it long after you're gone."
----Al McGuire
"They had it before you, they had it during you, they'll have it long after you're gone."
----Al McGuire
It wasn't too terrible, actually. Maybe 15 hours or so. I'm almost certain my preseason top 50 took more time to construct.
And I agree on Maryland being that low - I was surprised, too. I think their downfall is having an anemic amount of conference titles. Unfortunately, playing in the same conference for so many years with Duke and Carolina will do that to most schools. And only having four Elite 8 appearances is a big blow, too.
@hailtoyourvictor we haven't heard your thoughts yet.
It probably doesn't make a difference on the overall rankings, but how come FSU's 1972 team isn't given the credit with the independents finishing in the top 10?
"JC's dick was short before this post, during this post, and it will remain short long after this post."
--Me
Good catch. Odds are there are probably a few errors here and there. So if anyone wants to double-check my numbers, please feel free.
So, this moves FSU's total from 127 to 132 points. That puts you guys in 60th place. A Final Four would have bumped you guys up to 54th.
Sorry I missed this. I’ll take a look at it when I get off work. Thanks for doing the legwork.
I am a fan of Al McGuire.
I hated Marquette.
Al knew that, but after I met Al McGuire (because he is a friend of my friend, Joe B. Hall) he never held that against me. Upstairs I have a note from McGuire. He had a big heart and would even forgive me for my nasty words about his team. You don't find better people than Al.
Al McGurie, a NY city boy, knew more about basketball than anyone and if you ever met the dude you would love him.
God bless Al McGuire.
A Final Four this year, you mean?
Speaking of this year, FSU and a dozen or so other auto-bid qualifiers earned a bid to the Dance, meaning they made the round of 64. You counting that?
Correct. I meant to say you guys would have risen to 54th all-time, had you advanced to the Final Four this year.
Regarding the auto bids, I don't think FSU and others should receive credit for this year's NCAA Tournament. FSU didn't even play in the ACC Tournament; they were awarded the auto bid by default. And they obviously didn't play in the NCAAT. Most of the at-large bids were kind of set in stone anyway. You're talking about maybe two or three bids that were up for grabs. Regardless, it's a very minimal impact, as we're talking about a single point.
Definitely minimal. Just didn’t know if you were counting it. It’s a funny nuance.
It is accurate to say that FSU played in three consecutive NCAATs from 2017-2019.
BUT...it’s also accurate to say FSU earned a berth in 4 straight NCAATs from 2017-2020.
I guess so. But they didn't "earn" it in the traditional sense, by winning the ACC Tournament.
The ACC is weird on that front.But, it's yours so have at it. Just an outsiders view.
That's rich!!! RollLaughRollLaughRollLaugh
How do you know that? Kinda weird.
Anyone could see this post coming.
So are we now talking about ...NVM, let's not derail this great thread. OP put a lot in to this thread to get junked up with this nonsense.
The stats are right there.
That's what his auntie told me. She seemed like the honest type.
Why quote me?
I noticed you didn’t quote the UK fans that had problems with me suggesting that programs should lose points for probations.
Did you really notice that? Did you notice me not quoted other fans as well?
You made a very dripping rich comment and of course ppl are going to call it out on here. Nothing more, nothing less.
He said he included all vacated wins/titles etc. from all teams.
*just do what you do, and we'll move on back to the OP.
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And the person that decided it was a rich Comment might want to worry about his favorite program & their history.
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