NBA Bubble Thread

[WeAreDePaul]

Jokic getting exposed in these playoffs on the defensive end. Not a good time in the effort to play like you have no fux to give on the defensive end. He's lucky Utah (aside from Gobert) felt the same way about defense. The Clippers, however, do not feel that way.

 

[UL_1986]

Going to get even more so...

Pat Riley may have been on something back in the day with the point center.

Jokic is that guy.

Just image Shaq chasing Jokic around. Jokic is a big boy

I lived in Southern California at that time. Was finishing my USMC career at El Toro and ended up staying out there for awhile.

Shaq was frustrating to watch at times. Those Utah vs LA Lakers series were clinics. I was involved in a lot of basketball camps out there and watched those games multiple times because of how well the Utah Jazz played.
They even gave the Bulls some trouble.

The Basketball IQ on that team was unbelievably high.

Karl Malone has said. His two favorite players to play against were Shaq and Charles Barkley because neither wanted to guard the pick and roll.

Even late in the fourth quarter
Shaq was too busy trying to enforce his will on Greg Ostertag and the rest of their goofy centers.

Some solid points.

 

[dtgold88]

Stockton is one of the most overrated players in NBA history IMO. Malone was a beast.

Sure, Stockton wasn’t a bad a scorer, but he wasn’t good. In the Jazz’s best years he was averaging 14 while not being an elite defender. He was a super ball dominant point guard, and had a long career, which made his assists numbers so high.

To be clear, I still think he’s top 50 all time. But I’d take Curry, Magic, Robertson, Isiah Thomas for sure. Chris Paul and Steve Nash too. I’d have him 7th in the point guard rankings. That’s probably a hot take but I also think Karl Malone was just really good.

Have to admit was a time I thought Pippen might have been THE most overrated player, but I've come around to appreciate his game a lot more. But stockton being a guard who was at 51% shooting and close to 40% on 3s is pretty damn good. Never mind all time assist guy.

 

[dtgold88]

Shaq is better than Malone and Kobe is better than Stockton. Duncan is an all timer for sure, but Robinson isn’t in the same league as Shaq/Kobe.

Durant/Curry came after Shaq/Kobe, so that doesn’t apply to “until Shaq/Kobe.”

Missed the until part, but shaq v. Kobe, but for my comment it's Robinson vs. Pippen as a #2, not shaq or Kobe

 

[dtgold88]

This. Pip was better than any player on any of those teams not named Magic. And he was MJ's #2. Tom Chamber, lol, sucked that year. He was 12/5 and in Israel like a year or two later. The Bulls were loaded. Grant left Chicago to be one of the top paid players in the NBA. Got crazy money. Toni Kuckoc was pretty good, too. The argument that ANY team had more talent against the Bulls is laughable, but that's what happens with the MJ crowd. Such a surly bunch when you knock on MJ at all. Funny.

Yeah and I don't get their angst. I didn't even say Lebron was better. MJ probably is, but Lebron has the chance to pass him. The MJ fanboys don't even want to hear any part of that.

 

[Villian07]

As much as I hate to admit it, Lebron probably is a better overall player than Jordan was. As far as everything except pure scoring ability. But I doubt he will ever pass Jordan as the GOAT.

Jordan just had such a will to win, that cut throat win at all costs mentality. That’s what sets him apart imo as the best ever. And it’s definitely part of the equation when comparing the two.

 

[dtgold88]

As much as I hate to admit it, Lebron probably is a better overall player than Jordan was. As far as everything except pure scoring ability. But I doubt he will ever pass Jordan as the GOAT.

Jordan just had such a will to win, that cut throat win at all costs mentality. That’s what sets him apart imo as the best ever. And it’s definitely part of the equation when comparing the two.

It is, but might be a bit of a fallacy. did he forget how much he wanted to win before he started winning titles?

I will say one thing he would have done that Lebron did not was he would not have cared about Wade's feeling in the Mavs series and he would have been sure to make everyone aware he was "the man". Lebron played like he did not want to step on Wade's toes that series.

 

[IUfanBorden]

It is, but might be a bit of a fallacy. did he forget how much he wanted to win before he started winning titles?

I will say one thing he would have done that Lebron did not was he would not have cared about Wade's feeling in the Mavs series and he would have been sure to make everyone aware he was "the man". Lebron played like he did not want to step on Wade's toes that series.

See, I do not get what you mean by this...But, I'll try and answer...

Jordan broke his foot in his second season...I am sure you are aware of this. He was told by docs, and the front office, to shut it down...He then bargained for some minutes...then more.

Why? Bulls had a chance to make the playoffs. He was told if he were to hurt his foot again, that it could END HIS CAREER. Didn't matter to him. He still fought to play. Finally the Bulls gave in. Got into the playoffs, Jordan drops his legendary 63 on Boston...Rest is history.

Point is, everyone wanted Jordan to pack it in. But his desire to win...his will to win, couldn't let him.

Maybe that answers your question?

Jordans will to win has always been there...Its legendary. He just didn't have the pieces...Check out this starting five in 1985/86:

C Dave Corzine
PF Chrles Oakley
SF Orlando Woolridge
PG Kyle Macy...

Won 30 games..

As the pieces got better, so did the record...

Won 40 the following season...Then 50(first season with Pippen)...47 the year after...Then 55....

And THEN....

Well, you know that story....

Will to win has been the same with MJ...It has never wavered...What did waver though, was the pieces...As those got better,combined with his tenacious mentality, well, you also know that story.

No one has ever implied MJ did it all on his own. Don't know why some try and push that narrative..

 

[IUfanBorden]

As much as I hate to admit it, Lebron probably is a better overall player than Jordan was. As far as everything except pure scoring ability. But I doubt he will ever pass Jordan as the GOAT.

Jordan just had such a will to win, that cut throat win at all costs mentality. That’s what sets him apart imo as the best ever. And it’s definitely part of the equation when comparing the two.

Meh, maybe...I think some forget just how damn good Jordan was defensively..He was the same on that end, as he was offensively...I mean he was 9X First Team All defense....Nine times. So not only did he lead the league in scoring 10x's---he was among the Top 5 defenders 9 times, as well. That is crazy. In comparison, LBJ only made the First team defensively 5x's-----And none since 2013. Not to mention, MJ led the league 3 times in steals, as well...
Jordan was a very good passer as well...That really didn't start to show until he got involved with the triangle, buying in to Jackson's system. Averaged 5.3 apg...Not bad for a dude that was also dropping 35 a night...

Jordans overall game is much,much stronger than some realize.

 

[829305]

It is, but might be a bit of a fallacy. did he forget how much he wanted to win before he started winning titles?

I will say one thing he would have done that Lebron did not was he would not have cared about Wade's feeling in the Mavs series and he would have been sure to make everyone aware he was "the man". Lebron played like he did not want to step on Wade's toes that series.

Agreed. Being a dickhead like MJ would’ve served his legacy better, buuuuuut turns out Bron is not an asshole.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Agreed. Being a dickhead like MJ would’ve served his legacy better, buuuuuut turns out Bron is not an asshole.

 

[Villian07]

Meh, maybe...I think some forget just how damn good Jordan was defensively..He was the same on that end, as he was offensively...I mean he was 9X First Team All defense....Nine times. So not only did he lead the league in scoring 10x's---he was among the Top 5 defenders 9 times, as well. That is crazy. In comparison, LBJ only made the First team defensively 5x's-----And none since 2013. Not to mention, MJ led the league 3 times in steals, as well...
Jordan was a very good passer as well...That really didn't start to show until he got involved with the triangle, buying in to Jackson's system. Averaged 5.3 apg...Not bad for a dude that was also dropping 35 a night...

Jordans overall game is much,much stronger than some realize.

Touche, I had no idea Jordan had that many all defensive teams. Pretty impressive.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Have to admit was a time I thought Pippen might have been THE most overrated player, but I've come around to appreciate his game a lot more. But stockton being a guard who was at 51% shooting and close to 40% on 3s is pretty damn good. Never mind all time assist guy.

Stockton and Hornacek would not miss a Free Throw. Even Malone became a decent free throw shooter

Someone already said that Malone doesn't get enough credit. He developed himself into an elite basketball player but Malone was a bully.
Added a lot to what Stockton and later him and Hornacek provided in the back court.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Touche, I had no idea Jordan had that many all defensive teams. Pretty impressive.

Villian, Jordan's defense is very underrated..DPOY in 1988 as well. Jordan is the only player besides Hakeem, to win DPOY and MVP, in the same season. He's the all-time block leader as a guard in NBA history....And is third all-time in steals..

A defense assassin as well.

To me, this is whats crazy..Out of the league from 1998-2001. As a 38 year-old who'd been out of the NBA for 3 years, promptly averages 22ppg, 5rpg and 5apg. Makes the All-Star team...

As a 40 year-old in his final season, he scored 20 or more points 42 times...30 or more nine times, and 40 or more three times. He;s the only 40 year old to score 43 points in an NBA game....

Oh, and made the All-Star team, averaging 20, 6 and 3...

Crazy.

Edit: Actually D Wade passed MJ in 2019. Though Jordan, at the time, was still the NBA leader in reg season blocked shots, with 893. I am sure Wade has since also , broke that record. For his career, MJ had 1,051 blocked shots.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Pippen deserves all the credit in the world for their very first NBA Championship.

Later Dennis Rodman was the one who made the difference on the defensive end.

I don't think Jordan would have won very many NBA Championships on his own

Rodman is Rodman.

Pippen doesn't like it. If you really pay attention to Pippen's career watch the 1994 season without Jordan.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Pippen deserves all the credit in the world for their very first NBA Championship.

Later Dennis Rodman was the one who made the difference on the defensive end.

I don't think Jordan would have won very many NBA Championships on his own

Rodman is Rodman.

Pippen doesn't like it. If you really pay attention to Pippen's career watch the 1994 season without Jordan.

Who ever implied as much? No one wins a title on their own---Unless their profession is golf or tennis. Sure Jordan had help---Great help in Pippen...And Rodman. Every NBA champ has----Magic and Kareem...Bird and McHale. So on and so on....

To say (later), Rodman was the only one who made a difference on the defensive end is foolish..Jordan was All Defensive FIRST TEAM in 96, 97 and 98....

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Who ever implied as much? No one wins a title on their own---Unless their profession is golf or tennis. Sure Jordan had help---Great help in Pippen...And Rodman. Every NBA champ has----Magic and Kareem...Bird and McHale. So on and so on....

To say (later), Rodman was the only one who made a difference on the defensive end is foolish..Jordan was All Defensive FIRST TEAM in 96, 97 and 98....

You are using a subjective list. Jordan was an elite defender because of his length and quickness.

Jordan is 6-6.
Pippin tried to win one on his own but couldn't. Ended up acting like a female.

But when it comes down to guarding players I would take Pippen.
Rodman eventually got older but Rodman could guard any player on any inch of the court a lot of his career
How unbelievably crazy was it for a guy who had that much talent not to care about being the guy shooting the shots.

 

[IUfanBorden]

You are using a subjective list. Jordan was an elite defender because of his length and quickness.

Jordan is 6-6.
Pippin tried to win one on his own but couldn't. Ended up acting like a female.

But when it comes down to guarding players I would take Pippen.
Rodman eventually got older but Rodman could guard any player on any inch of the court a lot of his career
How unbelievably crazy was it for a guy who had that much talent not to care about being the guy shooting the shots.

I mean, are not most elite defensive players, as guards, elite because of their length, quickness and athletic ability? I don't know many defensively, elite guards who had short arms, were slow and unathletic....Do you? Not to mention, Jordan's ability anticipate: See Game 6 steal of the 1998 Finals that set-up his game winner.

As for Rodman....Crazy as this may sound, he was IMO, the ultimate team player. He knew his strength, and played to it. He did what the team needed and wanted---Not what he needed and wanted. IMO, Bulls don't win 3 straight agan, w/o him. He was the perfect fit.....Phil being the perfect coach to handle him, and Jordan letting Dennis be Dennis...TBH, I think MJ might have been scared of Dennis...Dude was cray-cray..Laughing But in seriousness, I think he and MJ got along so well b/c he (Rodman) wanted to win just as bad...

 

[Demarcus Kidd-Miller]

MIA goes up 3-0 SmokinSmile

 

[IUfanBorden]

Pippin tried to win one on his own but couldn't. Ended up acting like a female.

Wasn't that in 94 when Jackson drew up the final shot for Kucok(vs Knicks)?

BTW, Kukoc drilled it...SmokinSmile

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

I mean, are not most elite defensive players, as guards, elite because of their length, quickness and athletic ability? I don't know many defensively, elite guards who had short arms, were slow and unathletic....Do you? Not to mention, Jordan's ability anticipate: See Game 6 steal of the 1998 Finals that set-up his game winner.

As for Rodman....Crazy as this may sound, he was IMO, the ultimate team player. He knew his strength, and played to it. He did what the team needed and wanted---Not what he needed and wanted. IMO, Bulls don't win 3 straight agan, w/o him. He was the perfect fit.....Phil being the perfect coach to handle him, and Jordan letting Dennis be Dennis...TBH, I think MJ might have been scared of Dennis...Dude was cray-cray..Laughing But in seriousness, I think he and MJ got along so well b/c he (Rodman) wanted to win just as bad...

Interesting team from a NBA coaching perspective. Phil Jackson was that guy.

But you have the next storyline with that team. Phil Jackson did have some ability to create a team but not as much as some thought. Lakers were very intelligent not to give him that power. The NY Knicks weren't. But don't think the Lakers did much better though even without him.

Egos get in the way. I still think everyone looks at Jerry Krause as the ultimate villain

 

[IUfanBorden]

Holy sh&t at that Boston Raptors ending...

Anunoby just walked away.....****ing cold-blooded..SmokinSmile

 

[UL_1986]

Miami might sweep, but I think Milwaukee takes next and the heat get it in 5.

Houston playing well so far against the Lakers.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Don't think Milwaukee is mentally there.
Don't know what happened behind the scenes but it looks like the Bucks already had one foot out of the bubble when the series started

 

[Villian07]

Interesting team from a NBA coaching perspective. Phil Jackson was that guy.

But you have the next storyline with that team. Phil Jackson did have some ability to create a team but not as much as some thought. Lakers were very intelligent not to give him that power. The NY Knicks weren't. But don't think the Lakers did much better though even without him.

Egos get in the way. I still think everyone looks at Jerry Krause as the ultimate villain

How could you not look at Kraus as the villain though, when he comes out and says he/they are breaking up the team in a season when said team was going for a 3 peat (their 2nd 3 peat at that). Why in the world would you not want to keep that going until someone actually beat them on the court.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

How could you not look at Kraus as the villain though, when he comes out and says he/they are breaking up the team in a season when said team was going for a 3 peat (their 2nd 3 peat at that). Why in the world would you not want to keep that going until someone actually beat them on the court.

That was a business decision from what I have seen.
The Bulls cut payroll but the Bulls even without Jordan have a big name.

I believe this was a decision by the owner.
Was looking for a way to decrease overhead.

Was paying Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and even Phil Jackson a lot of money.


Krause was trying to make the most of it and see if he could get something for Pippen.


In terms of him being the villain. He is the villain all of this but truth is he did a great job at building that team.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Follow the story line

Jordan wins those championships.
Reinsdorf tells him good bye but continues to pocket the money without giving MJ a cut

MJ says screwed that. Has been involved in the ownership of two NBA franchises

MJ hasn't done very well at putting together an elite product.
But realizes it is the owner who really is the one winning in the end.

 

[Villian07]

That was a business decision from what I have seen.
The Bulls cut payroll but the Bulls even without Jordan have a big name.

I believe this was a decision by the owner.
Was looking for a way to decrease overhead.

Was paying Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and even Phil Jackson a lot of money.


Krause was trying to make the most of it and see if he could get something for Pippen.


In terms of him being the villain. He is the villain all of this but truth is he did a great job at building that team.

I mean what kind of business would make a decision like that? We are the best business in our field, maybe ever, but we are gonna fire our best employees, bc a few that are (probably/maybe) underpaid want a raise. Surely they weren’t losing money. I’m not sure how the salary cap worked back then or if there even was one, but I can’t imagine such a popular and great team losing money. And like MJ said in the doc, I don’t imagine too many people would have walked away from the opportunity to make another run, if given the chance, even if it was on 1 year deals.

Plus just flat telling Phil he wouldn’t be retained the next year even if he won (another) title. It’s like they just said mehhh we’ve won enough, tired of winning. Let’s suck for the next 20 years (basically, few good seasons with Rose, many more seasons in the lottery)

 

[dtgold88]

See, I do not get what you mean by this...But, I'll try and answer...

Jordan broke his foot in his second season...I am sure you are aware of this. He was told by docs, and the front office, to shut it down...He then bargained for some minutes...then more.

Why? Bulls had a chance to make the playoffs. He was told if he were to hurt his foot again, that it could END HIS CAREER. Didn't matter to him. He still fought to play. Finally the Bulls gave in. Got into the playoffs, Jordan drops his legendary 63 on Boston...Rest is history.

Point is, everyone wanted Jordan to pack it in. But his desire to win...his will to win, couldn't let him.

Maybe that answers your question?

Jordans will to win has always been there...Its legendary. He just didn't have the pieces...Check out this starting five in 1985/86:

C Dave Corzine
PF Chrles Oakley
SF Orlando Woolridge
PG Kyle Macy...

Won 30 games..

As the pieces got better, so did the record...

Won 40 the following season...Then 50(first season with Pippen)...47 the year after...Then 55....

And THEN....

Well, you know that story....

Will to win has been the same with MJ...It has never wavered...What did waver though, was the pieces...As those got better,combined with his tenacious mentality, well, you also know that story.

No one has ever implied MJ did it all on his own. Don't know why some try and push that narrative..

Kind of a long answer to say "yeah, you are right...he somehow couldn't will lesser players to win."

Hope you are aware Pippen won 55 WITHOUT Jordan.

 

[dtgold88]

Meh, maybe...I think some forget just how damn good Jordan was defensively..He was the same on that end, as he was offensively...I mean he was 9X First Team All defense....Nine times. So not only did he lead the league in scoring 10x's---he was among the Top 5 defenders 9 times, as well. That is crazy. In comparison, LBJ only made the First team defensively 5x's-----And none since 2013. Not to mention, MJ led the league 3 times in steals, as well...
Jordan was a very good passer as well...That really didn't start to show until he got involved with the triangle, buying in to Jackson's system. Averaged 5.3 apg...Not bad for a dude that was also dropping 35 a night...

Jordans overall game is much,much stronger than some realize.

Hmmm....I wonder if playing with elite defenders like Pippen and Rodman helped MJ a ton on that end. Harper, as well.

But I do realize MJ's overall game is strong and he is worthy of still being called The GOAT.

 

[dtgold88]

Agreed. Being a dickhead like MJ would’ve served his legacy better, buuuuuut turns out Bron is not an asshole.

agree...but he probably needed to be in that series.

 

[dtgold88]

I mean, are not most elite defensive players, as guards, elite because of their length, quickness and athletic ability? I don't know many defensively, elite guards who had short arms, were slow and unathletic....Do you? Not to mention, Jordan's ability anticipate: See Game 6 steal of the 1998 Finals that set-up his game winner.

As for Rodman....Crazy as this may sound, he was IMO, the ultimate team player. He knew his strength, and played to it. He did what the team needed and wanted---Not what he needed and wanted. IMO, Bulls don't win 3 straight agan, w/o him. He was the perfect fit.....Phil being the perfect coach to handle him, and Jordan letting Dennis be Dennis...TBH, I think MJ might have been scared of Dennis...Dude was cray-cray..Laughing But in seriousness, I think he and MJ got along so well b/c he (Rodman) wanted to win just as bad...

Knowing all this and that Kraus built the team why does MJ rip him so much...and seems he still does not want to give him credit. would think being as bad a judge of talent as he is he might be more willing to grow up.

 

[829305]

Hmmm....I wonder if playing with elite defenders like Pippen and Rodman helped MJ a ton on that end. Harper, as well.

But I do realize MJ's overall game is strong and he is worthy of still being called The GOAT.

Harper was the man.

 

[dtgold88]

Interesting team from a NBA coaching perspective. Phil Jackson was that guy.

But you have the next storyline with that team. Phil Jackson did have some ability to create a team but not as much as some thought. Lakers were very intelligent not to give him that power. The NY Knicks weren't. But don't think the Lakers did much better though even without him.

Egos get in the way. I still think everyone looks at Jerry Krause as the ultimate villain

Haha...just made that point and I don't get it. Idea to this day MJ is still a baby and holds a grudge would be comical if not so sad.

 

[dtgold88]

How could you not look at Kraus as the villain though, when he comes out and says he/they are breaking up the team in a season when said team was going for a 3 peat (their 2nd 3 peat at that). Why in the world would you not want to keep that going until someone actually beat them on the court.

OK..maybe he said that, but he also gave everyone the chance to stay AFTER the season and Phillip CHOSE to leave as he realized he might actually have to work this time as they could not keep everyone.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Hmmm....I wonder if playing with elite defenders like Pippen and Rodman helped MJ a ton on that end. Harper, as well.

But I do realize MJ's overall game is strong and he is worthy of still being called The GOAT.

I am sure it did..BUT, keep in mind---Jordan was All NBA defensive 1st team from 1988 thru 1993. Including DPOY in 1988....Pippen was a Rookie in 87....And there was no Rodman until 1996. Pretty sure MJ was decent at defense well before Rodman arrived, some 8 years after Jordan was named DPOY in 1988...

Ron Harper is an underrated defensive player as there ever was....But he didn't arrive in Chicago until 1995...Long after Jordan had established his defensive presence.

 

[UL_1986]

Anyone think the Rockets have a chance to win this series? On paper it seems like the Lakers would hve their way with the Rockets, but I feel like the small ball lineup works in favor. I still think Lakers in 6, but who knows. I would’ve never thought the Bucks would be down 3-0 but here we are..

 

[dtgold88]

I am sure it did..BUT, keep in mind---Jordan was All NBA defensive 1st team from 1988 thru 1993. Including DPOY in 1988....Pippen was a Rookie in 87....And there was no Rodman until 1996. Pretty sure MJ was decent at defense well before Rodman arrived, some 8 years after Jordan was named DPOY in 1988...

Ron Harper is an underrated defensive player as there ever was....But he didn't arrive in Chicago until 1995...Long after Jordan had established his defensive presence.

all defense can be like GG, though. win one and you will keep getting them. earned or not.

Isn't to say MJ didn't earn them. But all you did was show he never made it pre Pippen.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Knowing all this and that Kraus built the team why does MJ rip him so much...and seems he still does not want to give him credit. would think being as bad a judge of talent as he is he might be more willing to grow up.

Krause ****ed up more drafts than he got right...Yes Jerry built the team----he also tore it apart in its prime. Krause was on record of saying---"I don't care if we go undefeated, Phil Jackson will not be the coach..." He said this knowing Jordan would not play for anyone else...

What ****ing GM does that?

 

[dtgold88]

Anyone think the Rockets have a chance to win this series? On paper it seems like the Lakers would hve their way with the Rockets, but I feel like the small ball lineup works in favor.

so hard to know...was almost fooled into thinking Portland had a chance after they took Game 1. I just wont write off playoff Lebron until someone other than GS takes him down.

That said, if they do lose will he blame the Cavs FO?