Yea. Don’t think a lot of people realize how high of a level Euroleague and Spanish ACB are. They’re the 2nd and 3rd best leagues in the world.
Luca Doncic is a legit top 3 pick
- Thread starter Matt Laurer
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Yea. Don’t think a lot of people realize how high of a level Euroleague and Spanish ACB are. They’re the 2nd and 3rd best leagues in the world.
Evaluating talent takes a special kind of talent in its own right. Not dissing your skills, just saying that it's a rare ability that only a precious few reliably have (Jerry West comes to mind). This is why even those professionally focused on this discipline so often goof up and draft guys like Anthony Bennett and Derrick Williams in the first few selections.
BTW, if Doncic turns out to have a career legitimately drawing comparisons to Dwyane Wade, he's got a great half in a playoff game in his mid-30s to look forward to.
Fwiw, I made the "bigger Dwayne Wade" comparison and I just wanted to say that's obviously not a sure thing. That's just what I see as his ceiling. If he were to reach his full potential.
I think it would be great if that happened, but I am a little guarded about that possibility. As a guy from Chicago, I'm protective of Wade's legacy as he is arguably the greatest player to come out of Illinois. Perhaps that honor should go to George Mikan, but that's even before my time.
This is quite true. Perhaps the greatest explosions of scoring domination I ever saw were by Jay Schidler and Marty Simmons in the Illinois state tournament. Schidler and Simmons went on to college and had decent careers, but nothing like I would have expected based on their high school glory. I suspect Doncic will soon get a sobering dose of reality called NBA defense.
Just like every college player...
I’ve always been iffy with picking euros. The ones who end up busts (I don’t think there are many) are those who didn’t do much while overseas. There are a lot of busts from here as well, did we forget about the Kandy man, Kearney Brown, Thabeet, Johnny Flynn, Shawn Bradley, Billy Owens and the list goes on and on.
In 600 games, Owens had roughly 12 ppg and 7 rpg. He may have fallen short of projections, but he wasn't exactly a total bust, at least not compared to the other guys you're citing.
There are 351 Division I college basketball teams, so how are you making this comparison?
I understand that, but with all those teams there is a wide variance in talent. If CBB were compressed into the number of teams corresonding to the Euro League, what disparity in talent would there be? Why is CBB still the primary source for the NBA draft?
Well, one is full of grown men and the other kids. EuroLeague has a ton of former NBA talent. On Doncic’s team alone Chasson Randle, Jeff Taylor, Trey Thompkins, Anthony Randolph, Walter Taveras. It’s not debatable which is better.
Well, those "kids" often come in and kick ass immediately, and the full grown men you cite are playing overseas usually because they weren't good enough to make the NBA. Remember, the issue being debated is talent, and not experience.
So tell me, how many teams are in the Euro League and whether that assemblage would be better than a compressed group of college teams corresponding to that number.
All you're doing is restating your opinion and not answering the questions I asked.
It’s almost an impossible question to answer because if you don’t understand it then I doubt you’re ever going to.
What kid kicks ass immediately? Ben Simmons? Yeah, he would in the EuroLeague, too. That’s not the point, it’s about the depth of talent, not the top-end because the point is that, when comparing the leagues as a whole, Real Madrid to NBA is less of an adjustment than Duke/Arizona to the NBA.
Yes, a lot of EuroLeague guys weren’t great NBA guys...but they’re 28 year old men at the top of their game who were serviceable in the NBA...Ayton, Bagley, etc are playing guys at GA Tech, Cal, WSU, Wake, etc who aren’t even good college players.
Your argument about condensing the league to prove CBB is on equal footing is baffling. 90% of CBB isn’t very good.
OK, so you're framing your position as something that's self-evident and irrefutable. Pretty hard to argue against someone staunchly entrenched in that mindset. Actually, quite a few guys in last years draft are kicking ass. About 10 are averaging double figures and there are even more who'd put up better stats if they weren't on a roster stuck behind guys clearly better than Euro League players. Bam Adebayo would be one whom I'd think would contribute more if he were granted more playing time. You might be right that 90% of college basketball isn't that good. There are 351 Division I teams, hence my question about compressing college basketball down to a corresponding number to the Euro League to measure the top talent.
At any rate, you seem to be making the case that Luka Doncic will almost assuredly be an impact player in the NBA next year, given that his impressive numbers are more validated by virtue of having accumulating them against tougher opposition. We shall see.
We think he will be an impact player because of his talent level.
Several people, including you, intimate not because the jump from euro/college to the the nba. My point is that the Euro league is far more skilled than anything in college. I don’t think any CBB team would beat the worst Euro league team.
If he is going to be the best European player of all time he should probably go first
True. Darko.
But you're basing this hypothetical team matchup strictly on theory, and it is one that veers away from your comment about talent. Saying that a Euro League team would beat last years Duke or Villanova team is one thing, but saying that they are more talented when they are grown men compared to Duke and Villanova's "kids" doesn't wash.
If Doncic doesn't cut it in the NBA, certainly that would be a bad reflection on the Euro League.
Okay, feel free to forget the kids comment and focus on the fact that they’re superior basketball players.
Well, you brought up the Dwyane Wade comparison. Is 17 ppg like he had in his rookie year asking too much.
Well, you brought up the Dwyane Wade comparison. Is 17 ppg like he had in his rookie year asking too much.
Well, Wade was like 22 as a rookie...and playing in a completely different (much less talented overall) NBA.
But I think 14/6/5 for Doncic is reasonable next year.
OK, if he does that I'll be surprised. Bear in mind, I'm not rooting against him, I'll just be surprised.
I remember Rubio being hailed as a wunderkind when he was playing for Spain, and he's had a nice career.
Rubio’s hype isn’t near what Doncic is receiving
Yeah, Doncic's hype is more akin to that given to Darko Milicic. Let's hope he does a much better job of living up to it.
We were talking hype. Besides, am I missing something The stats I have on Doncic don't seem to be that glittering.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/luka-doncic-1.html
Upon further review, I think an optimistic projection would be for Luka to become another Peja Stoyokavic, which is not a bad thing at all. Peja had a wonderful career, perhaps just outside the top five foreign born players. of all time. He was a solid 20 ppg man on a team that came oh so close to getting a title.
I think you don't really know all that much about Luca's style, skill set, etc. Luca isn't a terrific three-point threat. He will probably develop that some, but he'll never be the shooter that Peja was. Luca is a "point-forward" type who is athletic, a gifted playmaker, and a high basketball IQ. He will occasionally have scoring outbursts, but he's not a 25ppg a night guy, nor does he ever project to be. He's more of a 18 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds type of guy.
He's already won the EuroLeague Rising Star award (best player 22 or younger), paired up with Goran Dragic to lead Slovenia to their first EuroBasket Gold medal ever, and won EuroLeague Player of the Month (regardless of age).
Other Rising Star award winners were Danilo Gallinari, Ricky Rubio, and Nikola Mirotic. All were 1-2 years older when they won the award and Doncic's stats far surpass them. He averaged more points than all of them did in their award winning seasons (in some cases, double), more assists than all of them, and more rebounds than all of them.
Meanwhile, the guy you keep citing (Darko) never even played in the EuroLeague. He played in a lower tier Serbian league for a couple seasons. He was picked highly by Detroit because they had an NBA Championship team and could afford to gamble on a major project as they didn't need an instant impact guy.
My comparison wasn't made to outline style of play but to guess at overall success for an NBA career. I think projecting that a 19 year old kid might enjoy success similar to a guy who came in at a similar age and had a long and fruitful career is quite positive.
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What you apparently don't understand is that the discussion that prompted my reference about Darko had to do with hype, which even exceeded that for Luka. Some even advocated taking Luka over Lebron and now there are those contending that Luka is a bigger Dwyane Wade. IMO those are varying degrees of outlandish regard. Perhaps there's more justification to accord Luka hype, but the jury certainly is still out about that. I personally think that anyone taking him over Ayton or Bagley is doing that at his peril.
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