Clown Team '23-'24 Edition

[dukedevilz]

Michigan is clown team.

UCLA lost to Utah by 46!

/End Thread

Michigan and UCLA are both 6-10. Crazy to think just 3 years ago they faced off against each other in the Elite 8.

The UCLA results is really startling. It was only 33-27 in the early 2nd half. And then UCLA kind of just quit after they dug themselves into a 20-point deficit. Utah ended the game on a 57-17 run. Wild.

 

[dukedevilz]

Santa Clara knocks off Gonzaga (and UNC fans rejoice). That will knock them out of the Top 25 for the first time since 2017, 143 straight appearances.

The result wasn't that surprising, IMO. Santa Clara is a decent team. They have wins over Oregon, Stanford, and Washington State. The arena was rocking last night. Never heard it like that before. Playing on the road against a semi-decent team isn't easy. And Steve Nash was on hand, too. Santa Clara had a lot going for them last night.

Adama Bal made that contested layup with 4 seconds left to give Santa Clara a 1-point lead. That is quite possibly the loudest the arena has ever been. I like how the ball hung on the rim forever. Kept everyone in suspense.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

View embedded media

The result wasn't that surprising, IMO. Santa Clara is a decent team. They have wins over Oregon, Stanford, and Washington State. The arena was rocking last night. Never heard it like that before. Playing on the road against a semi-decent team isn't easy. And Steve Nash was on hand, too. Santa Clara had a lot going for them last night.

Adama Bal made that contested layup with 4 seconds left to give Santa Clara a 1-point lead. That is quite possibly the loudest the arena has ever been. I like how the ball hung on the rim forever. Kept everyone in suspense.

@Bert Higginbotha

 

[JimboBBN]

The one year we get Gonzaga at Rupp and they blow chunks. Could be a beatdown.

 

[dukedevilz]

By the metrics, this is the worst Gonzaga team since 2011. Biggest flaws I see is their outside shooting is very meh. And they have no backcourt depth at all. Losing Steele Venters before the start of the season was huge. As it is, they often play Gregg, Watson, and Ike together. Essentially 2 power forwards and a center. Not ideal.

They have OOC wins over UCLA, USC, and Syracuse. Big names, but none of those schools give the Zags a top-50 win. So, Gonzaga might need to win the WCC Tournament just to make the NCAAs this year.

I've been a longtime defender of the Zags. I'd like to highlight two of the more remarkable stats during their dominant run from 2015-2023.

164 consecutive wins against sub-100 opponents. To put this into perspective, consider that Kentucky, as a top 10-team, has lost 4 games to sub-100 opponents in just the last 4 seasons. 2020- Evansville, Utah; 2022- Saint Peter's; 2024- UNC Wilmington. EVERYBODY loses to sub-100 opponents. Sure, you can go a couple seasons. But, to go 8 consecutive seasons without a sub-100 loss, where 2/3 of your games are against sub-100 opponents? Not very likely.

Other interesting stat. During roughly the same time frame (2017-2023), Gonzaga won 55 consecutive games against teams ranked in the 51-150 range. These aren't your juggernauts, but teams that are still very capable of beating you in a hostile environment - or if you're off your game. I highlight the 51-150 range because that represents the bottom third of essentially all power conferences (and the middle third for the ACC and Pac-12). And they won those type of games 55 consecutive times. We've already seen quite a few Top-25 teams this week lose on the road to sub-50 opponents. I just don't think the average college fan appreciates how freakishly consistent the Zags were over this stretch.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

@Bert Higginbotha

Gonzaga always gets benefit of playing a bunch of losers. West coast basketball is a very weak group of teams, always has been and always will be. They get a lot of attention based on a large population but rarely play a competitive schedule like many of the teams in the east play.

Picking out four teams that UK lost to is meaningless. Many good teams lose to bad teams. The reason the Zags never win shit is because of their weak schedule year in and year out. The NCAA titles requires 6 straight wins with each level getting harder thence the zags are never prepared for the grind.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Gonzaga always gets benefit of playing a bunch of losers. West coast basketball is a very weak group of teams, always has been and always will be. They get a lot of attention based on a large population but rarely play a competitive schedule like many of the teams in the east play.

Picking out four teams that UK lost to is meaningless. Many good teams lose to bad teams. The reason the Zags never win shit is because of their weak schedule year in and year out. The NCAA titles requires 6 straight wins with each level getting harder thence the zags are never prepared for the grind.

I agree with most of your sentiments. The WCC is not on par with major conferences, and traditionally the Zags have just blown through the conference.

On the other hand, they have been to two championship games the past 6 tournaments...2017 and 2021.

In 2017 they played UNC, and the game could have gone either way. Was back and forth until the final buzzer. Could have easily won. No doubt in 2021 they were outclassed by Baylor in the final, but that Baylor team was really, really good and blew through the tourney.

All this to say I don't necessarily think their easier conference has really effected their ability to make deep runs in March. Just my opinion, though.

 

[kyjeff1]

I agree with most of your sentiments. The WCC is not on par with major conferences, and traditionally the Zags have just blown through the conference.

On the other hand, they have been to two championship games the past 6 tournaments...2017 and 2021.

In 2017 they played UNC, and the game could have gone either way. Was back and forth until the final buzzer. Could have easily won. No doubt in 2021 they were outclassed by Baylor in the final, but that Baylor team was really, really good and blew through the tourney.

All this to say I don't necessarily think their easier conference has really effected their ability to make deep runs in March. Just my opinion, though.

The counter point to this is, Gonzaga greatly benefited by playing in the WCC all these years, because they are a man amongst boys and they rarely lose. When you rarely lose, you have an advantage over power 5 teams with regards to getting a 1 seed.

Those 2 Gonzaga teams were phenomenal, but their paths to the FF, were easier than they would have been had they played in a power 5 conference, where they would most certainly have lost some road games.

While UK, duke, unc, KU, etc… have to play on the road at Arkansas, UT, Texas Tech, Baylor, UVA, Miami etc… , Gonzaga was playing teams like Portland state, Santa Clara and San Francisco. That’s a massive difference.

In the NCAAT, in a 1 game scenario, anything can happen, so if you have that 1 seed, you have a much easier path than that 3, 4, or 5 team has to play.

 

[boilerzz]

Can’t believe no one nominated Texas yet. And B12 team who loses to this WVU team is clowning hard.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

Can’t believe no one nominated Texas yet. And B12 team who loses to this WVU team is clowning hard.

Losing to a 6-10 team is sort of bad.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Dallas. RollLaugh RollLaugh

 

[kyjeff1]

I love seeing the self nicknamed "America's team" getting it's ass kicked like this. Love it.

The officials can't even help them today.

 

[IUfanBorden]

The counter point to this is, Gonzaga greatly benefited by playing in the WCC all these years, because they are a man amongst boys and they rarely lose. When you rarely lose, you have an advantage over power 5 teams with regards to getting a 1 seed.

Those 2 Gonzaga teams were phenomenal, but their paths to the FF, were easier than they would have been had they played in a power 5 conference, where they would most certainly have lost some road games.

While UK, duke, unc, KU, etc… have to play on the road at Arkansas, UT, Texas Tech, Baylor, UVA, Miami etc… , Gonzaga was playing teams like Portland state, Santa Clara and San Francisco. That’s a massive difference.

In the NCAAT, in a 1 game scenario, anything can happen, so if you have that 1 seed, you have a much easier path than that 3, 4, or 5 team has to play.

Sort of.....Had GU been in a P5 conference, at most, they lose 4-5 conference games. At most. That is still good enough most years for a 1, 2 or at worse, 3 seed. Duke, UK, UNC, KU, etc....obviously have a tougher conference slate....But, even with 3, 4 or 5 conference losses, they still looking at 1, 2 or 3 seeds.

Gonzaga would have been very competitive in any P5 conference. They were just a really good team,in a meh conference. And their OOC schedule, and record vs Top 25 opponents, show just that. Lat 10 year they are 35-22 vs AP Top 25. And they year they played for the National title, they went 6-1; Only loss was to UNC, 71-65 in the title game. Then in 2021, they again went 6-1 vs AP Top 25, again their only loss was to BU in the title game(86-70).

Last year they went 6-4 vs Top 25 teams.

Look if they were just beating up on the WCC, then getting dominated, or losing on the regular to TOp 25/P5 teams, one could make the case they haven't been worthy of their seeding. But they haven't. They have more than shown they can, and could compete with the "Big boys" of CBB.

Not only this, BUT, Few has shown he can get it done w/o the services of great seeding. FOur times he has advanced to the SW 16, as a 10-seed or worse.

GU might not have a bunch of 30-2 reg seasons if they were in the ACC, SEC, B10, etc....But make no mistake, they'd be a league contender every year. And with that, would be in contention for #1 seeds.

 

[IUfanBorden]

I love seeing the self nicknamed "America's team" getting it's ass kicked like this. Love it.

The officials can't even help them today.

Jerry probably fired everyone by now...

 

[IUfanBorden]

By the metrics, this is the worst Gonzaga team since 2011. Biggest flaws I see is their outside shooting is very meh. And they have no backcourt depth at all. Losing Steele Venters before the start of the season was huge. As it is, they often play Gregg, Watson, and Ike together. Essentially 2 power forwards and a center. Not ideal.

They have OOC wins over UCLA, USC, and Syracuse. Big names, but none of those schools give the Zags a top-50 win. So, Gonzaga might need to win the WCC Tournament just to make the NCAAs this year.

I've been a longtime defender of the Zags. I'd like to highlight two of the more remarkable stats during their dominant run from 2015-2023.

164 consecutive wins against sub-100 opponents. To put this into perspective, consider that Kentucky, as a top 10-team, has lost 4 games to sub-100 opponents in just the last 4 seasons. 2020- Evansville, Utah; 2022- Saint Peter's; 2024- UNC Wilmington. EVERYBODY loses to sub-100 opponents. Sure, you can go a couple seasons. But, to go 8 consecutive seasons without a sub-100 loss, where 2/3 of your games are against sub-100 opponents? Not very likely.

Other interesting stat. During roughly the same time frame (2017-2023), Gonzaga won 55 consecutive games against teams ranked in the 51-150 range. These aren't your juggernauts, but teams that are still very capable of beating you in a hostile environment - or if you're off your game. I highlight the 51-150 range because that represents the bottom third of essentially all power conferences (and the middle third for the ACC and Pac-12). And they won those type of games 55 consecutive times. We've already seen quite a few Top-25 teams this week lose on the road to sub-50 opponents. I just don't think the average college fan appreciates how freakishly consistent the Zags were over this stretch.

Not to mention.....

8 straight SW 16's---I don't care what your seed is----that's impressive.

Have not lost in the 1st round since 2008. Impressive. Even more impressive?--- 5 times since 2008, they have been a 7 seed or worse. Yet still got out of the first round.

2010- 8 Seed
2011- 11 seed
2012- 7 seed
2014- 8 seed
2016- 11 seed

 

[kyjeff1]

Sort of.....Had GU been in a P5 conference, at most, they lose 4-5 conference games. At most. That is still good enough most years for a 1, 2 or at worse, 3 seed. Duke, UK, UNC, KU, etc....obviously have a tougher conference slate....But, even with 3, 4 or 5 conference losses, they still looking at 1, 2 or 3 seeds.

Gonzaga would have been very competitive in any P5 conference. They were just a really good team,in a meh conference. And their OOC schedule, and record vs Top 25 opponents, show just that. Lat 10 year they are 35-22 vs AP Top 25. And they year they played for the National title, they went 6-1; Only loss was to UNC, 71-65 in the title game. Then in 2021, they again went 6-1 vs AP Top 25, again their only loss was to BU in the title game(86-70).

Last year they went 6-4 vs Top 25 teams.

Look if they were just beating up on the WCC, then getting dominated, or losing on the regular to TOp 25/P5 teams, one could make the case they haven't been worthy of their seeding. But they haven't. They have more than shown they can, and could compete with the "Big boys" of CBB.

Not only this, BUT, Few has shown he can get it done w/o the services of great seeding. FOur times he has advanced to the SW 16, as a 10-seed or worse.

GU might not have a bunch of 30-2 reg seasons if they were in the ACC, SEC, B10, etc....But make no mistake, they'd be a league contender every year. And with that, would be in contention for #1 seeds.

Well, look at Houston, they just lost their first 2 BIG12 road games, it's January. And it's not like they lost at KU and Baylor, they lost at TCU and Iowa State. They could end up with a lot more losses and like Gonzaga, they kicked ass pre conference.

This is my point. Houston is a damn good team, but they're in a big boy conference, they could end up losing 2 or 3 seed lines and getting exposed.

If Houston was still in the AAC, or whatever it was, they would be a lock for a 1 seed. This is the advantage Gonzaga had for many years.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Well, look at Houston, they just lost their first 2 BIG12 road games, it's January. And it's not like they lost at KU and Baylor, they lost at TCU and Iowa State. They could end up with a lot more losses and like Gonzaga, they kicked ass pre conference.

This is my point. Houston is a damn good team, but they're in a big boy conference, they could end up losing 2 or 3 seed lines and getting exposed.

If Houston was still in the AAC, or whatever it was, they would be a lock for a 1 seed. This is the advantage Gonzaga had for many years.

Again, sort of. UK lost to UNCW----and to, 0-2 TAMU. CBB isn't what it was 20 years ago; NIL/portal have changed this. Teams at the bottom of conferences have some punch. Have kids they normally would not have---NIL/portal says you are welcome. I think as fans we put to much stock into what conference a team plays in. Or when a team like HOU loses @ TCU, or what not. That happens. It happened to KAN...It happened to UK...It happened to PUR....UCONN as well. But since HOU is formerly of the AAC, we wanted point them out as, "being exposed". Weird. Especially considering when a KU loses @ UCF, or UK @ A&M, we chalk it up as, "life being tough on the road.."---But when a newbie does it, its being exposed.

And look, its not like GU collapsed with these seeds.....FF's, title games, Elite 8's. So they lived up to their seeding. That gets overlooked. Sure they may have "backed into" a 1-seed via playing in a weaker conference, but...…………………….Well they played to seed the majority of the time.

 

[kyjeff1]

Again, sort of. UK lost to UNCW----and to, 0-2 TAMU. CBB isn't what it was 20 years ago; NIL/portal have changed this. Teams at the bottom of conferences have some punch. Have kids they normally would not have---NIL/portal says you are welcome. I think as fans we put to much stock into what conference a team plays in. Or when a team like HOU loses @ TCU, or what not. That happens. It happened to KAN...It happened to UK...It happened to PUR....UCONN as well. But since HOU is formerly of the AAC, we wanted point them out as, "being exposed". Weird. Especially considering when a KU loses @ UCF, or UK @ A&M, we chalk it up as, "life being tough on the road.."---But when a newbie does it, its being exposed.

And look, its not like GU collapsed with these seeds.....FF's, title games, Elite 8's. So they lived up to their seeding. That gets overlooked. Sure they may have "backed into" a 1-seed via playing in a weaker conference, but...…………………….Well they played to seed the majority of the time.

I really don't think we can compare what UK does to anyone else, but maybe duke.

When you're playing mostly freshmen and sophomores and everyone else has juniors and seniors, you're going to lose games… .eye popping games.

Gonzaga and Houston are not ever young. But UK losing on the road to aTm, proves my point. They have damn good talent, they are not some 'Tulane' and they were very desperate. Heck, they were SEC pre season ranked #2 and for good reason.

Also, this is the oldest college basketball has ever been. There are 26 year old dudes on the court this year.

But to me, it's pretty simple, Gonzaga and Houston had an advantage playing in those mid major conferences… as long as they didn’t lose more than 1 or 2 games.

 

[dukedevilz]

Not to mention.....

8 straight SW 16's---I don't care what your seed is----that's impressive.

Have not lost in the 1st round since 2008. Impressive. Even more impressive?--- 5 times since 2008, they have been a 7 seed or worse. Yet still got out of the first round.

2010- 8 Seed
2011- 11 seed
2012- 7 seed
2014- 8 seed
2016- 11 seed

That's a darn good track record. Gonzaga's had some crazy talented teams over that stretch. 2013, 2015, 2017, 2019-2022. I'll be curious to see if Few can right the ship next season and get the Zags to be nationally elite again.

This current team just doesn't have the horses to do very much. Still capable of making the tournament and perhaps winning a game or two, but not a serious threat to do much damage this season.

 

[dukedevilz]

This is my point. Houston is a damn good team, but they're in a big boy conference, they could end up losing 2 or 3 seed lines and getting exposed.

Houston is not going to be exposed. They lost on the road in the final minute against Iowa State (#12 on KenPom) on a crazy Dirk Nowitzki-like shot in the corner... and then they lost in the final few seconds, by 1 point, against TCU (#22 on KenPom). Houston is a lot closer to being 16-0 than they are to being 13-3. They're still the team to beat in the Big 12.

But to me, it's pretty simple, Gonzaga and Houston had an advantage playing in those mid major conferences… as long as they didn’t lose more than 1 or 2 games.

Gonzaga was 32-2 in 2015 and received a 2 seed. They were 30-4 in 2018 and received a 4 seed. In 2016, the Zags were 25-7 heading into the WCC Title game in 2016. It was commonly believed the Zags had to win the title game just to make the tourney. That team was just a possession away from advancing to the Elite 8 as an 11 seed.

Look at their conference rival, Saint Mary's. In 2016 SMC went 27-5 and missed the tournament. They were a Round of 32 team in 2017, then missed the tournament in 2018 after going 28-5, even after returning most everyone from the 2017 team. They were the highest rated team in both 2016 and 2018 to miss the tournament. Not sure you appreciate how razor thin of a margin these teams have. Everybody loses to sub-100 opponents, especially on the road. Heck, Duke nearly got swept by a sub-100 opponent in Georgia Tech just this past weekend.

 

[kyjeff1]

Houston is not going to be exposed. They lost on the road in the final minute against Iowa State (#12 on KenPom) on a crazy Dirk Nowitzki-like shot in the corner... and then they lost in the final few seconds, by 1 point, against TCU (#22 on KenPom). Houston is a lot closer to being 16-0 than they are to being 13-3. They're still the team to beat in the Big 12.



Gonzaga was 32-2 in 2015 and received a 2 seed. They were 30-4 in 2018 and received a 4 seed. In 2016, the Zags were 25-7 heading into the WCC Title game in 2016. It was commonly believed the Zags had to win the title game just to make the tourney. That team was just a possession away from advancing to the Elite 8 as an 11 seed.

Look at their conference rival, Saint Mary's. In 2016 SMC went 27-5 and missed the tournament. They were a Round of 32 team in 2017, then missed the tournament in 2018 after going 28-5, even after returning most everyone from the 2017 team. They were the highest rated team in both 2016 and 2018 to miss the tournament. Not sure you appreciate how razor thin of a margin these teams have. Everybody loses to sub-100 opponents, especially on the road. Heck, Duke nearly got swept by a sub-100 opponent in Georgia Tech just this past weekend.

How is Houston closer to being 16-0 than 13-3? If duke, uk, unc, or ku loses by a point on the road to an Oklahoma state, Texas A&M, or an NC state, it's just a loss, but when Houston loses, it's becsuse a team did something miraculous? How so?

Yeah, Saint Mary's didn’t make the NCAAT in 2016 with a 27-5 record, but who did they play and who did they beat? It’s not just them, there are a ton of mid majors that cruise through the season and lose in their conference tournament, but those teams didn’t play, or beat anyone out of conference. ScM didn't beat anybody beyond Stanford (eyeroll) and Gonzaga at home by 3, before losing twice to Gonzaga on the way out. They played San Francisco state, Bakersfield, UC Poly, UC Davis and UC Irvine in the pre con. That is what did them in. They played nobody, then hid in the WCC for 3 months. Why should they have been in the NCAAT? Who got in over them that shouldn't have?

Same with Gonzaga, they had great records those years, but against what competition? 2015 Gonzaga got a 2 seed, but they played 2 ranked teams, somehow SMU was ranked, they won that game, but lost to Arizona, then lost to BYU. I'm not sure why a 2 seed is some slap in the face. This is a mid major, how many mid majors get a 2 seed? I think they benefitted by not losing conference games. If tgey were in the BIG12, they don't get a 2 seed.

2018, I don't see anything wrong with a 4 seed, they played 3 ranked teams, lost to two of them and I'm not sure if Creighton was ranked when they played, but it shows they were 25th. Other than that, they did nothing to impress. They got a 4 seed, because they were Gonzaga. If they played in a p5 conference, I guarantee you, they end up with a lot more than 4 losses.

But lets get back to Houston, if they were playing in the AAC, do they have 2 losses right now?

 

[dukedevilz]

How is Houston closer to being 16-0 than 13-3?

If you beat a team by double-digits there's not a whole lot of luck involved. 12 of the 14 wins for Houston this season have been by double-digits. Both losses came in the final minute, one in the final seconds.

Yeah, Saint Mary's didn’t make the NCAAT in 2016 with a 27-5 record, but who did they play and who did they beat?

I'm illustrating the fact that the margin for error is razor thin for non-P6 schools.

During the 2020 season, Kentucky finished the season #8 in the AP Poll. They had 3 losses to teams in the 51-150 range. The Zags, as previously mentioned, won 55 straight games against teams in the 51-150 range. And Kentucky also had a sub-250 loss to Evansville. If you play enough games against sub-100 opponents, you will likely lose every once in a while.

The Zags would have been crushed on the seed line if that happened. But, it didn't happen. And they often had really strong OOC resumes. As it is, Zags have won 20 of their last 25 games against Big 12 opponents. And in the years since 2015 when they've been a 1 or 2 seed, they went 28-7 (80%) against top 50 opponents. If you win 80% of your league games, you're a contender for a conference crown. But, winning 80% of your games against top 50 opponents? That's not very common. And the Zags were awarded accordingly.

But lets get back to Houston, if they were playing in the AAC, do they have 2 losses right now?

Probably not. Big 12 is the best conference in America. Houston will lose more games. But, teams are going to have to play their A game to beat Houston. I don't see them falling out of the top 10 this season.

 

[kyjeff1]

If you beat a team by double-digits there's not a whole lot of luck involved. 12 of the 14 wins for Houston this season have been by double-digits. Both losses came in the final minute, one in the final seconds.



I'm illustrating the fact that the margin for error is razor thin for non-P6 schools.

During the 2020 season, Kentucky finished the season #8 in the AP Poll. They had 3 losses to teams in the 51-150 range. The Zags, as previously mentioned, won 55 straight games against teams in the 51-150 range. And Kentucky also had a sub-250 loss to Evansville. If you play enough games against sub-100 opponents, you will likely lose every once in a while.

The Zags would have been crushed on the seed line if that happened. But, it didn't happen. And they often had really strong OOC resumes. As it is, Zags have won 20 of their last 25 games against Big 12 opponents. And in the years since 2015 when they've been a 1 or 2 seed, they went 28-7 (80%) against top 50 opponents. If you win 80% of your league games, you're a contender for a conference crown. But, winning 80% of your games against top 50 opponents? That's not very common. And the Zags were awarded accordingly.



Probably not. Big 12 is the best conference in America. Houston will lose more games. But, teams are going to have to play their A game to beat Houston. I don't see them falling out of the top 10 this season.

I get that beating teams by double digits takes luck out of the equation and that losing by a bucket can come down to luck, but that just reinforces my point. In the P5 conferences, most games against good competition, come down to the final possession and most games in those cracker jack conferences are blowouts.

If you can make it through the B12, SEC, BE and BIG10 with only 3 or 4 losses, you deserve a 1 or 2 seed, because when you go on the road, it's a war. In the WCC, those battles are rare and that’s an advantage for teams like Gonzaga and Houston (pre 2023).

I'm not sure why you're bringing up UK 2020 to compare to Gonzaga. Now, you know that UK is notoriously young and newly pieced together, that team lost some games do to those issues.

UK is not a typical p5 program, but I'll play along. Yeah, in 19/20, they lost to Evansville, that’s a horrid loss, but who are those 51-150th ranked teams that UK lost to??? Are you talking about neutral court games against Utah and #6 Ohio state? Road loss at South Carolina?. You mentioned 3 bad losses in addition to Evansville. I don't think your numbers are correct. Those weren't horrid losses. But also, UK beat #1 Michigan State, 3rd ranked UofL and a true road game at 18th ranked Texas Tech. Did Gonzaga do anything like that?

That loss @ South Carolina was bad, but that's life on the road in conference play in a P5 conference. If 2020 Gonzaga had to play in the SEC year in and year out, they would lose games like that too. That’s what I'm talking about. Life on the road in the WCC, is nowhere near as difficult, not even close.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying Gonzaga and Houston suck, no way, they're great programs, but you can't deny that they can run and hide in the AAC and WCC for the 3 months before selection Sunday. You can't hide in any of the P5 conferences. That’s my point.

 

[dukedevilz]

Did Gonzaga do anything like that?

In 2020, Gonzaga was 6-2 in Q1 games and 5-0 in Q2 games. Kentucky was 9-3 in Q1 games (same winning %), but they were also 5-2 in Q2 games. So yes, Gonzaga's resume was far more impressive in 2020. Zags had a combined Q1/2 record of 11-2 compared to Kentucky's record of 14-5.

The last time Gonzaga was a 1 seed was 2022. Zags were 10-3 in Q1 games, which was the best record among 1 seeds.

 

[dukedevilz]

I'm not sure why you're bringing up UK 2020 to compare to Gonzaga. Now, you know that UK is notoriously young and newly pieced together, that team lost some games do to those issues.

Kentucky was in line for a 2 or 3 seed that year. The point I was making is that a team like that can afford an occasional bad loss. Non-power schools cannot. Not only do you need quality wins, but you also need to avoid EVERY potential bad loss if you want a high seed. And for a school like Saint Mary's, who had wins over Gonzaga in '16 and '18, and went 27-5 and 28-5, their bubble got busted on the tiniest of margins.

If you're a legit top 5 school, like I believe Houston is, you welcome the change to the Big 12 because know you don't have to fret over every loss.

 

[kyjeff1]

In 2020, Gonzaga was 6-2 in Q1 games and 5-0 in Q2 games. Kentucky was 9-3 in Q1 games (same winning %), but they were also 5-2 in Q2 games. So yes, Gonzaga's resume was far more impressive in 2020. Zags had a combined Q1/2 record of 11-2 compared to Kentucky's record of 14-5.

The last time Gonzaga was a 1 seed was 2022. Zags were 10-3 in Q1 games, which was the best record among 1 seeds.

How is 6-2 in Q1, more impressive than 9-3? The heck with percentage, 9 wins over quad 1 competition, is far more impressive than 6.

UK lost to Utah in Vegas IIRC and South Carolina in a true road game. UK also won at Texas Tech and beat #1 Michigan state.

Gonzaga lost to Michigan by 20. They have some other wins that were quite impressive, no doubt, but Gonzaga also lost @ unranked BYU. So, if they can lose to unranked BYU, what's to say they couldn't lose to a team like South Carolina on the road?

Lets also not forget, we never saw brackets for 2020, you're saying all this like Gonzaga got screwed and I'm not sure why, for all we know, UK and Gonzaga could have both landed as 2 seeds.

 

[kyjeff1]

Kentucky was in line for a 2 or 3 seed that year. The point I was making is that a team like that can afford an occasional bad loss. Non-power schools cannot. Not only do you need quality wins, but you also need to avoid EVERY potential bad loss if you want a high seed. And for a school like Saint Mary's, who had wins over Gonzaga in '16 and '18, and went 27-5 and 28-5, their bubble got busted on the tiniest of margins.

If you're a legit top 5 school, like I believe Houston is, you welcome the change to the Big 12 because know you don't have to fret over every loss.

Like I said in my previous post, we have no idea where both schools were going to be seeded.

Again, I'm not saying Houston isn’t good, they certainly are, but the grind of a power 5 schedule, is a whole different ballgame than the schedule they would have played in the AAC. They have already lost 2 road games, what's to say they don't lose 5 more games? It’s certainly possible. That’s not a 1 seed resume. That’s the difference I'm talking about.

 

[dukedevilz]

How is 6-2 in Q1, more impressive than 9-3? The heck with percentage, 9 wins over quad 1 competition, is far more impressive than 6.

Because Gonzaga didn't have any Q2 losses. And they certainly didn't have a Q4 loss. They had 2 losses on the whole season; Kentucky has 2 losses to sub-100 opponents alone.

UK lost to Utah in Vegas IIRC and South Carolina in a true road game. UK also won at Texas Tech and beat #1 Michigan state.

Gonzaga lost to Michigan by 20. They have some other wins that were quite impressive, no doubt, but Gonzaga also lost @ unranked BYU. So, if they can lose to unranked BYU, what's to say they couldn't lose to a team like South Carolina on the road?

BYU was ranked and they finished KenPom at #13. They were a legit Final Four threat. And I remember Sean Farnham saying that was the loudest he had heard any arena all year.

Lets also not forget, we never saw brackets for 2020, you're saying all this like Gonzaga got screwed and I'm not sure why, for all we know, UK and Gonzaga could have both landed as 2 seeds.

That was never my point. You and others harp on the idea that Gonzaga is gifted high seeds. I'm pointing out that 1. they earned the high seeds 2. Their margin for error is not very big and 3. Power schools can earn high seeds, even with bad losses, unlike non-P6 schools.

 

[kyjeff1]

Because Gonzaga didn't have any Q2 losses. And they certainly didn't have a Q4 loss. They had 2 losses on the whole season; Kentucky has 2 losses to sub-100 opponents alone.



BYU was ranked and they finished KenPom at #13. They were a legit Final Four threat. And I remember Sean Farnham saying that was the loudest he had heard any arena all year.



That was never my point. You and others harp on the idea that Gonzaga is gifted high seeds. I'm pointing out that 1. they earned the high seeds 2. Their margin for error is not very big and 3. Power schools can earn high seeds, even with bad losses, unlike non-P6 schools.

Gonzaga would have had Q3 losses if they played in a legit conference though. One of UK's Q2 losses was at South Carolina in conference. That’s what happens when you play in power 5 conferences.

When I looked on sports reference, BYU was unranked when they played. I also recall Farnham making that comment about the BYU crowd.

And nobody is saying anything about Gonzaga being gifted high seeds. I'm saying they have an advantage by playing a much easier schedule the last 3 months of the season.

 

[IUfanBorden]

I really don't think we can compare what UK does to anyone else, but maybe duke.

When you're playing mostly freshmen and sophomores and everyone else has juniors and seniors, you're going to lose games… .eye popping games.

Gonzaga and Houston are not ever young. But UK losing on the road to aTm, proves my point. They have damn good talent, they are not some 'Tulane' and they were very desperate. Heck, they were SEC pre season ranked #2 and for good reason.

Also, this is the oldest college basketball has ever been. There are 26 year old dudes on the court this year.

But to me, it's pretty simple, Gonzaga and Houston had an advantage playing in those mid major conferences… as long as they didn’t lose more than 1 or 2 games.

Ok...then remove UK----Still leaves HOU, KAN, PUR and UCONN with those type of losses. It happens. EVen happens with UK, with an "old" team---See last year.

Gonzaga has shown, and repeatedly, that they were very deserving of the seeds they got. If people wanna knock them b/c the play in the WCC----Ok. But its dumb. The teams Few has had there, over the years, would easily compete in ANY, P5 conference. And in doing so, would compete for Top seeds.

Look, when you are 35-22 vs the AP Top 25 the past 10 seaons or so, while playing in a meh conference, I think that shows who ya are.

 

[kyjeff1]

Ok...then remove UK----Still leaves HOU, KAN, PUR and UCONN with those type of losses. It happens. EVen happens with UK, with an "old" team---See last year.

Gonzaga has shown, and repeatedly, that they were very deserving of the seeds they got. If people wanna knock them b/c the play in the WCC----Ok. But its dumb. The teams Few has had there, over the years, would easily compete in ANY, P5 conference. And in doing so, would compete for Top seeds.

Look, when you are 35-22 vs the AP Top 25 the past 10 seaons or so, while playing in a meh conference, I think that shows who ya are.

Yeah, they would compete in the SEC, BIG, BIG12 etc… , but they would have a lot more losses. Playing at Arkansas, Baylor and Purdue, is a whole lot different than playing at San Francisco, Portland and Pepperdine. It just is.

 

[MGO2022]

Ohio State for losing to Michigan

 

[Kevin Bryan]

USF erased a 20-point second half deficit to win @ Memphis.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

The Fightin' Jeff Capels (1-5 ACC) swagger into Cameron and steal a dub from the Frightened John Scheyers.

 

[kyjeff1]

Duke just shit their pants again.

 

[FaithPlusOne]

Duke just shit their pants again.

At home this time.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

At home this time.

Dumbass from Pitt challenged that last 3 at the buzzer and nearly fouled too. When you are up 4 that is the ONLY thing that can lose you the game. Can't believe kids still continue to do this stupid shit.

 

[kyjeff1]

At home this time.

That’s 2 home losses.
I didn’t think Pitt had a chance in hell. This is definitely a bad loss not UNCW bad, but very bad.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Can a defensive team qualify?

 

[MGO2022]

😂 Kansas