50 Greatest Programs of All-Time

Discussion in 'College Basketball Board' started by dukedevilz, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. Bruiser1

    Bruiser1 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    52
    Very good and interesting, but conference championships are given way too much weight. The variance in points should not out-weigh NC (which should be worth more) Also, how do you define “power conference” vs. non when deciding 4 points or 5? Is it just based on being ranked or are there a certain arbitrary list of conferences you designate as “Power”?
     
  2. IUfanBorden

    IUfanBorden Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    23,867
    Likes Received:
    8,807
    Wining a title, doesn't make a conference better. UK and Florida have won 5 of those...Arkansas was a gift from the SWC. No the Big 10 hasn't had a title since MSU won it in 2000. BUT----Since then they have had 6 different schools reach the FF---Indiana, Illinois, MSU, OSU, Michigan and Wisconsin. All 6 played for the title. So, since 2000, the Big 10 has had one title, but 6 runner-ups. That's a pretty impressive bride's maid.

    IU runner-up 2002(ironic enough, to now Big 10 foe Maryland)
    MSU: NC in 2000.Runner-up in 2009; FF in 2001, 05, 09, 10, 15 and 19.
    OSU: Runner-up in 2007; FF in 2012.
    Illinois: Runner-up 2005
    Wisconsin: Runner-up 2015; FF in 2014, 2000
    Michigan: Runner-up 2013 and 18.

    I wouldn't call that mediocre, year after year....
     
  3. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    26,908
    Likes Received:
    10,342
    Are conference titles based off regular season, tournament, or both?
     
  4. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Regular season titles only. Too much inconsistency with the conference tournaments. Pac-10/8 and Big Ten used to always rely on the regular season champ. Compound that with the fact that dozens and dozens of quality teams were independent in the 1970's. Only since multiple bids were granted to a single conference did independents start to flee from the independent status. So yeah, I just prefer to make the numbers look as comparable as possible.
     
    Yellow Man and GE Nole like this.
  5. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Power Conferences are designated as ACC, Big East, Big 12/Big8, Big Ten, Pac 12/PCC, SEC. Obviously a lot of power schools today weren't always affiliated with one of these conferences (i.e. All Big East schools, Louisville, Arizona, West Virginia). You could argue that some of those conferences don't necessarily merit the full 5 points every year, but more often than not you're going to have at least 5 teams in the top 50.

    A conference champion only gets 5 points. A national champion gets 71 points (1+2+3+5+10+20+30). That's a pretty significant gap, IMO.
     
  6. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    So how many points should I reduce Carolina's aggregate score for being placed on probation during the 1960-61 season?
     
  7. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    10,384
    Likes Received:
    9,183
    Should be bonus points for getting away with cheating for 20+ years too, IMO.
     
  8. AWilli6995

    AWilli6995 Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,044
    Likes Received:
    2,482
    Location:
    Greensboro, NC

    We are dealing with facts and the facts are UK got smacked more than once. But we should just focus on what happened on the court and IMO it’s UK, UNC and everybody else.
     
    RunninRichie and lurkeraspect84 like this.
  9. uncfan in ky

    uncfan in ky Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Likes Received:
    2,612
    100 points at the least.
    It’s not ground breaking news that UNC has been on probation once in their history.
     
    49 uncfan in ky, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  10. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Not a fan of doing that, actually. It's revisionist history (you'll notice I also haven't removed any vacated titles or Final Fours). And it's very subjective. I mean, some schools did things that were way more egregious than others. I can't imagine actually deliberating on a system which delineates between the magnitude of each scandal.
     
  11. Big_Blue79

    Big_Blue79 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    998
    Or giving much weight to the NCAA's determination of each scandal given their lack of subpoena power and, um, inconsistent enforcement.
     
  12. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Exactly. Sam Gilbert easily could have cost UCLA several national titles. Other schools were placed on probation for relatively minor infractions. NCAA has shown little to no consistency. And who even knows what any of these coaches/boosters/handlers have done in the dark? Many schools never had penalties levied against them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were running clean programs. Rules have been bent left and right, and I find no value in subjective interpretations.
     
  13. uncfan in ky

    uncfan in ky Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Likes Received:
    2,612
    Still IMO a program should be punished for breaking NCAA rules.
    If you’re going to reward the NCAA championships, then the NCAA probations should count against them.
     
  14. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Might make sense if the NCAA wasn't so arbitrary with how they enforce the rule-breakers.

    And a school is already punished for being placed on probation. Kentucky, for example, won the SEC outright with a 14-4 record in 1991. But, Miss. State and LSU, who both finished at 13-5, are given credit for being the regular season champs.
     
  15. Big_Blue79

    Big_Blue79 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    998
    Dukedevilz: this can't be done in any meaningful way for these unrebutted reasons.
    Uncfan in ky: still, it should be done because I say it should be done.
     
    lurkeraspect84 and dukedevilz like this.
  16. uncfan in ky

    uncfan in ky Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Likes Received:
    2,612
    All I’m saying is that programs that cheat should be penalized for it.
     
  17. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    20,168
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    I agree.
     
  18. wildcatwelder

    wildcatwelder Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    15
    Dude, that had to take a lot of time and effort to compile; thanks for taking it on. Very cool! (And not just because Kentucky is #1, we already knew that, lol.)

    A little surprised at Maryland being so far down the list; not sure why but I would have thought they would have been a little higher, but your numbers don't lie.

    Again kudos sir.
     
  19. JC for 3

    JC for 3 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,651
    Likes Received:
    1,451
    Location:
    Ft. Thomas, KY
    ...as if there were any doubt....

    "They had it before you, they had it during you, they'll have it long after you're gone."

    ----Al McGuire
     
  20. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    It wasn't too terrible, actually. Maybe 15 hours or so. I'm almost certain my preseason top 50 took more time to construct.

    And I agree on Maryland being that low - I was surprised, too. I think their downfall is having an anemic amount of conference titles. Unfortunately, playing in the same conference for so many years with Duke and Carolina will do that to most schools. And only having four Elite 8 appearances is a big blow, too.

    @hailtoyourvictor we haven't heard your thoughts yet.
     
    wildcatwelder likes this.
  21. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    26,908
    Likes Received:
    10,342
    It probably doesn't make a difference on the overall rankings, but how come FSU's 1972 team isn't given the credit with the independents finishing in the top 10?
     
  22. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,755
    Likes Received:
    3,513
    "JC's dick was short before this post, during this post, and it will remain short long after this post."

    --Me
     
    RunninRichie likes this.
  23. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    20,168
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    Are you not a fan of Al McGuire?
     
  24. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Good catch. Odds are there are probably a few errors here and there. So if anyone wants to double-check my numbers, please feel free.

    So, this moves FSU's total from 127 to 132 points. That puts you guys in 60th place. A Final Four would have bumped you guys up to 54th.
     
  25. hailtoyourvictor

    hailtoyourvictor Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2012
    Messages:
    24,749
    Likes Received:
    10,790
    Sorry I missed this. I’ll take a look at it when I get off work. Thanks for doing the legwork.
     
    dukedevilz likes this.
  26. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    17,701
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    Location:
    Smiths Grove, Kentucky
    I am a fan of Al McGuire.

    I hated Marquette.

    Al knew that, but after I met Al McGuire (because he is a friend of my friend, Joe B. Hall) he never held that against me. Upstairs I have a note from McGuire. He had a big heart and would even forgive me for my nasty words about his team. You don't find better people than Al.

    Al McGurie, a NY city boy, knew more about basketball than anyone and if you ever met the dude you would love him.

    God bless Al McGuire.
     
  27. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    26,908
    Likes Received:
    10,342
    A Final Four this year, you mean?

    Speaking of this year, FSU and a dozen or so other auto-bid qualifiers earned a bid to the Dance, meaning they made the round of 64. You counting that?
     
  28. Big_Blue79

    Big_Blue79 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    998
    [​IMG]
     
  29. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    Correct. I meant to say you guys would have risen to 54th all-time, had you advanced to the Final Four this year.

    Regarding the auto bids, I don't think FSU and others should receive credit for this year's NCAA Tournament. FSU didn't even play in the ACC Tournament; they were awarded the auto bid by default. And they obviously didn't play in the NCAAT. Most of the at-large bids were kind of set in stone anyway. You're talking about maybe two or three bids that were up for grabs. Regardless, it's a very minimal impact, as we're talking about a single point.
     
  30. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    26,908
    Likes Received:
    10,342
    Definitely minimal. Just didn’t know if you were counting it. It’s a funny nuance.

    It is accurate to say that FSU played in three consecutive NCAATs from 2017-2019.

    BUT...it’s also accurate to say FSU earned a berth in 4 straight NCAATs from 2017-2020.
     
  31. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    6,134
    I guess so. But they didn't "earn" it in the traditional sense, by winning the ACC Tournament.
     
    GE Nole likes this.
  32. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    20,168
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    The ACC is weird on that front.But, it's yours so have at it. Just an outsiders view.
     
    dukedevilz likes this.
  33. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    10,384
    Likes Received:
    9,183
    That's rich!!! RollLaughRollLaughRollLaugh
     
  34. Kevin Bryan

    Kevin Bryan Moderator
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    10,384
    Likes Received:
    9,183
    How do you know that? Kinda weird.
     
  35. uncfan in ky

    uncfan in ky Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Likes Received:
    2,612
    Considering who coaches UK, it’s rich that you find my post rich.
     
  36. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    20,168
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    Anyone could see this post coming.

    So are we now talking about ...NVM, let's not derail this great thread. OP put a lot in to this thread to get junked up with this nonsense.

    The stats are right there.
     
  37. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,755
    Likes Received:
    3,513
    That's what his auntie told me. She seemed like the honest type.
     
    Kevin Bryan likes this.
  38. uncfan in ky

    uncfan in ky Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Likes Received:
    2,612
    Why quote me?
    I noticed you didn’t quote the UK fans that had problems with me suggesting that programs should lose points for probations.
     
  39. lurkeraspect84

    lurkeraspect84 Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    20,168
    Likes Received:
    16,996
    Did you really notice that? Did you notice me not quoted other fans as well?

    You made a very dripping rich comment and of course ppl are going to call it out on here. Nothing more, nothing less.

    He said he included all vacated wins/titles etc. from all teams.

    *just do what you do, and we'll move on back to the OP.
     
    79 lurkeraspect84, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  40. uncfan in ky

    uncfan in ky Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Likes Received:
    2,612
    And the person that decided it was a rich Comment might want to worry about his favorite program & their history.
     

Share This Page