2 Transgender boys

[brooky03]

The biggest hang-up is that the impact of a trans person competing as their new gender is different depending on if the transition is guy to girl or girl to guy. Obviously, guys transitioning to girls are going to have physical advantages. Girls transitioning to guys are not, even if they've been taking testosterone and hitting the gym for years. So a blanket set of rules that allows them to compete in some capacity might unfairly impact one type of trans person more than the other.

In individual sports, I think they should be allowed to compete but their postseason results (or however each sport does it) just aren't officially recorded. They can't compete in tournaments, they can't hold records, but they can earn W's and L's in the regular season. This obviously sucks for girls transitioning to guys because any ability to qualify for tournaments or postseason championships would be a pretty impressive accomplishment. But, on that same token, they would likely be taking a supplement that is technically a performance enhancer, even though testosterone supplementation would really just be catching them up rather than vaulting them ahead. Still, maybe the blanket rule in this case isn't as unfair as I originally thought.

Team sports are a little trickier. Where it's not a problem to have guy-to-girl athletes piling up regular season wins in individual sports, because they wouldn't be eligible for postseason and wouldn't be taking a spot away from anybody, it would be a problem in team sports. It's not fair to not let trans people compete and it's arguably cruel to force them to compete as their old gender, but it's also unfair to allow a team to potentially earn a postseason spot over another team because they had a trans person helping them (sticking with the guy-to-girl example). The team might get bounced early in the postseason once the trans person is disqualified from competing but that doesn't help the team they replaced, that was one spot removed from postseason eligibility. Removal of a girl-to-guy athlete for postseason play would probably be a non-issue from a competitive standpoint.

An interesting caveat to this comes into play with sports that aren't available to both sexes. In these cases, the rules governing transitioning/transitioned athletes should remain the same as the rules governing non-trans athletes who are simply the opposite sex of those competing in their sport. Field hockey is a good example. In the US, field hockey is almost universally a female sport; boys teams are rare, if they exist at all. When I was in HS, our field hockey team actually played against a team with a boy on it. He was an exchange student from a country where male field hockey was common and I think Title IX (something like that) required that he be allowed to play because the sport wasn't offered for his gender. In scenarios like this, I think it's obvious that trans people should be allowed to compete without restriction.

Physical tests to see if M2F athletes aren't too strong/fast and if F2M ahtletes are strong/fast enough have been proposed or are in some form of existence, but these create more problems than they solve, imo. Also, if anybody is worried that males would take advantage of gender transition simply to earn trophies and records competing as a girl, I don't think that's a legitimate fear. If you're not actually transsexual, you're not going to say you are just so you can win stuff as a lady.

 

[SNU0821]

Nope. Just pointing out that it's ignorant to insist somebody is a guy because they claim to be a female and weren't born one. And again, it's likely the law in CT will change. To their credit they didn't cave to stereotype when they made the law and are trying to make lives better. Arguably the law failed. So they'll change it. And that's the difference between being a liberal and a conservative. Change isn't evil. Failure is learning.

You'll argue that "you're either a female or male" and that it's cut and dry.

A few problems with that.

1) it's not true. People are born with mutations and it's not always cut and dry. That probably makes you uncomfortable but it's reality.

2) Those who genuinely feel and act like a different gender who go as far as altering their sex have real issues. What good is it serving make their lives worse? It says more about you than them.

A few problems with your comments. Most trans people aren’t born with both male and female genitalia. The number of those instances are so infrequent that it’s not even worth bringing up. They also don’t play much role in the actual transgender discussion. It’s an irrelevant point, for the most part.

Second part, those people are allowed to feel however they want to feel. However, they don’t get to make me feel the same way. They don’t get to dictate policy because of their, wait for it, FEELINGS. So if I feel like I’m a lion, does that mean I get to be a lion? What about all restaurants that don’t allow animals? Should they be made to change their policy because they’re discriminating against me because I feel like I’m a lion? See how dumb that sounds? You’re either born a man or a woman. You don’t get to choose. If you do think you’re the opposite sex as on your birth certificate, you are mentally ill. Bottom line.

 

[Mac9192]

What's next, the tallest midget award?

 

[SNU0821]

I'm pretty liberal. I don't care much at all whether people want to change their gender or whatever. I strongly believe when it comes to sports you should compete against whatever you were when you were born (assuming one wasn't hermaphroditic). That probably makes liberals and conservatives hate me, which I'm ok with. Liberals and conservatives both suck.

So this is a good point. If they truly believe they are female, why should they have to compete against the boys? Why does biology matter when it comes to sports but it doesn’t matter when it comes to everything else?

Again, like @UL1986 said, live and let live. I agree With that but I dont have to subscribe to their ideology and I dont think policy should be made based on feelings.

 

[KYtotheCore]

To their credit they didn't cave to stereotype when they made the law and are trying to make lives better.

What good is it serving make their lives worse?

People deserve dignity. The people in Connecticut who made this law were coming from the right place.

Just being devil's advocate here, and speaking only from an athletic standpoint . . .

Are the girls that lost the race entitled to the bolded (above) as well, or are those same human rights exempt for them since there is an asterisk issue associated with the race?

Just food for thought.

 

[brooky03]

A few problems with your comments. Most trans people aren’t born with both male and female genitalia. The number of those instances are so infrequent that it’s not even worth bringing up. They also don’t play much role in the actual transgender discussion. It’s an irrelevant point, for the most part.

Second part, those people are allowed to feel however they want to feel. However, they don’t get to make me feel the same way. They don’t get to dictate policy because of their, wait for it, FEELINGS. So if I feel like I’m a lion, does that mean I get to be a lion? What about all restaurants that don’t allow animals? Should they be made to change their policy because they’re discriminating against me because I feel like I’m a lion? See how dumb that sounds? You’re either born a man or a woman. You don’t get to choose. If you do think you’re the opposite sex as on your birth certificate, you are mentally ill. Bottom line.

Trans people aren't so much 'choosing' to be one gender or the other. They're born that way. If you accept that people can be born with a brain that makes them gay or straight, or both - which I hope you do - you should be able to accept that people can be born with a brain that makes them a female with male parts or vice versa.

Choosing to be a different species is a whole different thing.

 

[brooky03]

Just being devil's advocate here, and speaking only from an athletic standpoint . . .

Are the girls that lost the race entitled to the bolded (above) as well, or are those same human rights exempt for them since there is an asterisk issue associated with the race?

Just food for thought.

Losing a race to a trans person doesn't impact your dignity or make your life worse. Not being allowed to compete as a female when your brain tells you you're a female can impact your dignity and make your life worse. Lines have to be drawn to come up with the most fair solution for everyone, but an absolute abolishment of trans people's right to compete in some capacity as the gender they identify with would be a mistake.

 

[JimboBBN]

Losing a race to a trans person doesn't impact your dignity or make your life worse. Not being allowed to compete as a female when your brain tells you you're a female can impact your dignity and make your life worse. Lines have to be drawn to come up with the most fair solution for everyone, but an absolute abolishment of trans people's right to compete in some capacity as the gender they identify with would be a mistake.

Do you not see how this would impact other athletes negatively? I get it, we have to try and come up with a solution that benefits everyone but that is hard. Anyone with common sense can see that a guy transitioning to a woman or a woman taking tons of testosterone is at a clear advantage over your average female athlete. It’s not fair for them.

 

[KYtotheCore]

Losing a race to a trans person doesn't impact your dignity or make your life worse. Not being allowed to compete as a female when your brain tells you you're a female can impact your dignity and make your life worse. Lines have to be drawn to come up with the most fair solution for everyone, but an absolute abolishment of trans people's right to compete in some capacity as the gender they identify with would be a mistake.

As for the bolded (above), I can honestly say I'd be pissed at all the training I did to have to compete against someone with a clear advantage. I doubt all those girls are happy about it because they lost, but at least it made the former males happy. Can you imagine the outrage if Bruce Jenner competed against women in his day?

Could they come up with leagues made up of formers? That way there are no disadvantages for people who choose to remain as they were born. There's special Olympics, paralympics, etc. No one holds any natural physical advantage over another. Those events are busting at the seams with dignity.

 

[brooky03]

Do you not see how this would impact other athletes negatively? I get it, we have to try and come up with a solution that benefits everyone but that is hard. Anyone with common sense can see that a guy transitioning to a woman or a woman taking tons of testosterone is at a clear advantage over your average female athlete. It’s not fair for them.

If you have the time, read my prior post in this thread. I'm in support of letting them compete in the regular season but removing them from postseason and making them ineligible for records. I kind of formulated the idea based on what some schools did with their football teams when I was in high school. There were some schools who belonged in class AA, for example, but they sucked at football so they elected to play down a class. They were allowed to compete in the regular season and W's and L's were recorded for them and their opponents but they were not eligible for postseason play.

 

[JimboBBN]

If you have the time, read my prior post in this thread. I'm in support of letting them compete in the regular season but removing them from postseason and making them ineligible for records. I kind of formulated the idea based on what some schools did with their football teams when I was in high school. There were some schools who belonged in class AA, for example, but they sucked at football so they elected to play down a class. They were allowed to compete in the regular season and W's and L's were recorded for them and their opponents but they were not eligible for postseason play.

I have not read it, so if you addressed what I posted already then my mistake. Like I said, it’s a very tough situation to have. You want everyone to compete and be happy, but I feel like even the best of solutions will still have bumps and not be fully supported. Just a tough, tough spot for everyone.

Also, I think your solution is actually pretty good.

 

[oldsports_]

Losing a race to a trans person doesn't impact your dignity or make your life worse. Not being allowed to compete as a female when your brain tells you you're a female can impact your dignity and make your life worse.

Go tell Lindsey Vaughn, Serena Williams and any other top female athlete it doesn't matter. How would you know how any top athlete should feel losing to a transgender.?

 

[SNU0821]

Trans people aren't so much 'choosing' to be one gender or the other. They're born that way. If you accept that people can be born with a brain that makes them gay or straight, or both - which I hope you do - you should be able to accept that people can be born with a brain that makes them a female with male parts or vice versa.

Choosing to be a different species is a whole different thing.

I disagree. Being gay or straight, to me, is completely different than something biological like being a man or a woman. I can point to specific body parts and identify if that person is a man or a woman. Now people are trying to say that isn’t necessarily the case.

Regardless, they are free to live any way they want. Just don’t force me to comply with something that I disagree with and don’t make national policy because of nothing more than a feeling.

 

[schoonerwest]

If you have the time, read my prior post in this thread. I'm in support of letting them compete in the regular season but removing them from postseason and making them ineligible for records. I kind of formulated the idea based on what some schools did with their football teams when I was in high school. There were some schools who belonged in class AA, for example, but they sucked at football so they elected to play down a class. They were allowed to compete in the regular season and W's and L's were recorded for them and their opponents but they were not eligible for postseason play.

Well, I mean it is kind of unfair to the kids who play on the team to have to forfeit the entire postseason because 1 person identifies as transgender. Playing for championships is the whole point of any sport and taking that away from dozens of others for the sake of one doesn’t seem right. I don’t have a solution for that though.

What about fighting sports? I think it’s a terrible idea to have someone with a males physical attributes get into the ring with a woman.

 

[KYtotheCore]

What about fighting sports? I think it’s a terrible idea to have someone with a males physical attributes get into the ring with a woman.

It'd be interesting to see a female who trans into a male vs. the other way around, no?

 

[schoonerwest]

It'd be interesting to see a female who trans into a male vs. the other way around, no?

I just don’t think any of it’s fair at all. You can identify with the opposite sex, I fully believe and support that idea, but that doesn’t mean that biologically you are born with that gender’s physical attributes.

 

[KYtotheCore]

I just don’t think any of it’s fair at all. You can identify with the opposite sex, I fully believe and support that idea, but that doesn’t mean that biologically you are born with that gender’s physical attributes.

True. I'd just like to see if they feel like they have what it takes as a new identity. According to the PC group they're equals now.

 

[KYtotheCore]

“It’s frustrating,” she told the Hartford Courant newspaper. “But that’s just the way it is now…I can’t really say what I want to say, but there’s not much I can do about it.”

"Yearwood hasn’t had any therapies or procedures to bring him closer to being a biological woman."

https://foreverymom.com/society/and...boy-wins-connecticut-girls-state-track-title/

 

[brooky03]

Go tell Lindsey Vaughn, Serena Williams and any other top female athlete it doesn't matter. How would you know how any top athlete should feel losing to a transgender.?

what?

 

[brooky03]

Well, I mean it is kind of unfair to the kids who play on the team to have to forfeit the entire postseason because 1 person identifies as transgender. Playing for championships is the whole point of any sport and taking that away from dozens of others for the sake of one doesn’t seem right. I don’t have a solution for that though.

What about fighting sports? I think it’s a terrible idea to have someone with a males physical attributes get into the ring with a woman.

I addressed that in my first, longer post in this thread. For team sports, you'd just remove the trans person from the team come postseason play. Is that ideal for the trans person? Probably not, but if the alternative is not playing at all, I'd think they'd take it.

 

[schoonerwest]

I addressed that in my first, longer post in this thread. For team sports, you'd just remove the trans person from the team come postseason play. Is that ideal for the trans person? Probably not, but if the alternative is not playing at all, I'd think they'd take it.

Ahhh. Gotcha. I just saw your reference to what happened while you were in high school and assumed you meant the whole team was ineligible for post season. My mistake.

 

[brooky03]

I disagree. Being gay or straight, to me, is completely different than something biological like being a man or a woman. I can point to specific body parts and identify if that person is a man or a woman. Now people are trying to say that isn’t necessarily the case.

Regardless, they are free to live any way they want. Just don’t force me to comply with something that I disagree with and don’t make national policy because of nothing more than a feeling.

Gender and Sex are two different things. Think of the extreme case of somebody born with neither male nor female parts. They a boy or a girl? By primary sex characteristics, they're neither. But they're probably going to have a gender and their brain will assign boy or girl. This is an extreme and rare, maybe unheard of, scenario but you can apply the thought process, with nuance, to most transgender scenarios.

If we agree legal protections/rights are appropriate for gay individuals, then they should extend to transgender individuals.

 

[Da_Bull]

This is a biological issue not a social issue.

 

[SNU0821]

This is a biological issue not a social issue.

This. @brooky03 this is how I’m viewing this as well. The number of cases where someone is born with both sets or neither sets of male/female parts, that I believe the rest falls into that “feelings” category. I don’t think we can start making policies based solely upon feeling and no real biological/scientific data to back it up. It has always seemed like a mental issue to me (gender dysphoria).

 

[brooky03]

This. @brooky03 this is how I’m viewing this as well. The number of cases where someone is born with both sets or neither sets of male/female parts, that I believe the rest falls into that “feelings” category. I don’t think we can start making policies based solely upon feeling and no real biological/scientific data to back it up. It has always seemed like a mental issue to me (gender dysphoria).

We make policies based on gay people's "feelings".

 

[tw3301]

Nope. Just pointing out that it's ignorant to insist somebody is a guy because they claim to be a female and weren't born one.

That's not ignorant it's common sense. I don't understand why liberals are all about science and fact until it comes to this whole gender thing and then they throw it all out the window. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster than girls- that's not an opinion that's a fact and a guy putting a dress on and competing with girls is bullshit.

You'll argue that "you're either a female or male" and that it's cut and dry.

A few problems with that.

1) it's not true. People are born with mutations and it's not always cut and dry. That probably makes you uncomfortable but it's reality.

What is the percentage of people that are born with these mutations? 0.007%? If i asked you how many fingers and toes do human beings have would you say 10 or would you say 12 because an extremely low percentage of people are born with 12 toes? it's a mutation, not the norm.

2) Those who genuinely feel and act like a different gender who go as far as altering their sex have real issues. What good is it serving make their lives worse? It says more about you than them.

On this we agree, people that alter their sex have real issues and a high suicide rate because of their mental issues. However i fail to see how making someone born a man race against other men is making their lives worse. It probably did make the lives of the actual girls they raced against worse because they got cheated.

I'm pretty socially liberal, don't care how anyone lives their lives as long as they don't do harm to others but this whole gender deal is getting out of hand and people on the far left just sound nuts by denying basic science.

 

[anon_0astpxev9h4gk]

I should have competed against girls in sports maybe I could be a pro

You’d probably still lose.

 

[I am stupid]

25 years ago at your local burger king people were arguing about allowing females to play in male sports. The local redneck named Bert says, "What next? A man with a pecker playing against girls?"

He was ridiculed by the local science nerd who shouted, "Do not be ridiculous old man with your slippery slope strawman fallacy!"

Since he used words the other people didn't understand, they sided with the fancy talker. Surely the dumb redneck wouldn't be right.

 

[anon_0astpxev9h4gk]

That's not ignorant it's common sense. I don't understand why liberals are all about science and fact until it comes to this whole gender thing and then they throw it all out the window. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster than girls- that's not an opinion that's a fact and a guy putting a dress on and competing with girls is bullshit.


What is the percentage of people that are born with these mutations? 0.007%? If i asked you how many fingers and toes do human beings have would you say 10 or would you say 12 because an extremely low percentage of people are born with 12 toes? it's a mutation, not the norm.

On this we agree, people that alter their sex have real issues and a high suicide rate because of their mental issues. However i fail to see how making someone born a man race against other men is making their lives worse. It probably did make the lives of the actual girls they raced against worse because they got cheated.

I'm pretty socially liberal, don't care how anyone lives their lives as long as they don't do harm to others but this whole gender deal is getting out of hand and people on the far left just sound nuts by denying basic science.

There’s some fast strong ladies out there, i tell you what.

 

[ThroughBlue]

You’d probably still lose.

I remember playing against one of the Kentucky girls that got drafted with the last pick of the first round in the WNBA draft. Don’t remember her name and I don’t care enough to look up her name or to see if she is even still in ge WNBA.

she was about 6’-6’1 and obviously is the best female I’ve seen play in person or played against. She was actually going for rebounds with the guys and was trying to battle physically more than I’ve seen any female do which probably has a lot to do why she was drafted in the first round.

With all that being said she still got bullied and was pushed around by guys of similar height and were far from what I would consider muscular

I’ve said it on here before and I’ll say it again. I would take any region winner in this state in boys basketball against UConn women any given year and if you think otherwise I am going to assume 1.) you didn’t play basketball 2.) if you did you sucked

 

[anon_0astpxev9h4gk]

I remember playing against one of the Kentucky girls that got drafted with the last pick of the first round in the WNBA draft. Don’t remember her name and I don’t care enough to look up her name or to see if she is even still in ge WNBA.

she was about 6’-6’1 and obviously is the best female I’ve seen play in person or played against. She was actually going for rebounds with the guys and was trying to battle physically more than I’ve seen any female do which probably has a lot to do why she was drafted in the first round.

With all that being said she still got bullied and was pushed around by guys of similar height and were far from what I would consider muscular

I’ve said it on here before and I’ll say it again. I would take any region winner in this state in boys basketball against UConn women any given year and if you think otherwise I am going to assume 1.) you didn’t play basketball 2.) if you did you sucked

Tl;dr and sincerely doubt it. Plus I’d prob whoop dat ass. You’re probably older, slower, and can’t shoot.

 

[ThroughBlue]

Tl;dr and sincerely doubt it. Plus I’d prob whoop dat ass. You’re probably older, slower, and can’t shoot.

I’m not old but am slow and can shoot and *puffs chest out* would wax any girl in the game of basketball

 

[WeAreDePaul]

win girls high school track meet, girls record was broke .Wow!!

Good. Maybe now we'll have some transgenders of our own who can compete with the African transgenders in womens' sprints at the next Olympics.

 

[HRTheCard]

The fact that some people actually think what @JimboBBN said was offensive, is what’s wrong with today’s society and it’s only going to continue to get worse. People that find offense to this are the same people that hate Trump no matter what he does. He could save 1,000,000 lives by providing them food and water or something like that and you’d still have people commenting on that post about gun control and how he should be in jail or how he just did it for publicity.

Such a shame.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

Hell let us have horses identify themselves as human women and see if a girl human ever wins shit.

People this is pure stupidity.

 

[KisteK]

I'm all for transgenders having equal rights. However, I'm also for the level of competition being inherently(?) equal as well, and I'm not quite sure that's what went on here. While they'll change the law, they will not be able to give the real winners of those events their due moments, and that's a damn shame.
It doesn't take Anatomy/Biology 101 to know that the makeup of men and women are different.

If they didn't see this result coming from 1000 meters away, they weren't even trying.
Pacifier Bill 101

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

I'm all for transgenders having equal rights. However, I'm also for the level of competition being inherently(?) equal as well, and I'm not quite sure that's what went on here. While they'll change the law, they will not be able to give the real winners of those events their due moments, and that's a damn shame.
It doesn't take Anatomy/Biology 101 to know that the makeup of men and women are different.

If they didn't see this result coming from 1000 meters away, they weren't even trying.
Pacifier Bill 101

Hail KisteK, Hail!

 

[bkingUK]

Not sure how the kids who lost to transgenders are going to recover. No coming back from that. I'm pretty outraged.

 

[Dattier]

I have no problem admitting I’m not the most informed on politics. But that doesn’t make what I said wrong. You made an argument out of nothing in order to shame me in some way. That is a left quality.

 

[anon_0astpxev9h4gk]

My outrage levs are peaking.