Yesterday was the 15th anniversary...

[nole96]

Never forget 2/4/06 and the worst officiated game in the history of college basketball.

Fans like to complain about their team getting shafted by the refs, but nothing will come close to what took place that day at Cameron Indoor Stadium. To this day I've not seen anything like it. Pure domination in every facet of the game, ending in a loss. It was so bad, the entire officiating crew was suspended, the ACC wouldn't put it in their "video vault", and highlights of the game don't exist anywhere.

Take a gander at the box score. You will think it's fake.

Duke 97-96 Florida State (Feb 4, 2006) Game Stats - ESPN

Complete team stats and game leaders for the Duke Blue Devils vs. Florida State Seminoles NCAAM game from February 4, 2006 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

 

[dukedevilz]

If they got suspended, then obviously the officiating crew made some mistakes. Probably some blatant misses.

I hear FSU fans talk about this game semi-frequently. The one interesting stat I find, is the follow-up game in Tallahassee had a foul discrepancy of 40-17 in favor of FSU. Perhaps a little bit of make-up calls? Would be interesting to review the footage, if anyone can find it.

 

[tw3301]

Never forget 2/4/06 and the worst officiated game in the history of college basketball.

Fans like to complain about their team getting shafted by the refs, but nothing will come close to what took place that day at Cameron Indoor Stadium. To this day I've not seen anything like it. Pure domination in every facet of the game, ending in a loss. It was so bad, the entire officiating crew was suspended, the ACC wouldn't put it in their "video vault", and highlights of the game don't exist anywhere.

Take a gander at the box score. You will think it's fake.

Duke 97-96 Florida State (Feb 4, 2006) Game Stats - ESPN

Complete team stats and game leaders for the Duke Blue Devils vs. Florida State Seminoles NCAAM game from February 4, 2006 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

sounds like every FSU home game over the past 5 years.

 

[nole96]

If they got suspended, then obviously the officiating crew made some mistakes. Probably some blatant misses.

I hear FSU fans talk about this game semi-frequently. The one interesting stat I find, is the follow-up game in Tallahassee had a foul discrepancy of 40-17 in favor of FSU. Perhaps a little bit of make-up calls? Would be interesting to review the footage, if anyone can find it.

I assume you mean 40-17 free throws, not fouls. There is nothing unusual about a FT discrepancy when one offense is clearly physical inside and the other offense settles for jumpers. But 43-11? When the 43 is rewarded to the jump shooting team and the 11 to the team pushing the ball inside? Makes no sense.

In the first game, FSU attempted 75(!) two point shots (most of them right near the basket), vs just 10 from beyond the arc, yet were rewarded with just 11 free throw attempts all game. An overtime game no less. Duke attempted 33 fewer 2-point shots, and got rewarded with that 43-11 FT edge.

Find me another game in the history of this sport where the losing team made 13 more field goals than the winning team. I'll give you all weekend. You won't find one. And even if you could find one close, I guarantee you the losing team lost big on the boards. FSU out-rebounded Duke 52-37.

 

[kyjeff1]

Meh, that's a regular season game.
There was an Elite 8 game played 4 years ago that takes the cake. UNC & UK fans know exactly which game that was.

 

[GE Nole]

If they got suspended, then obviously the officiating crew made some mistakes. Probably some blatant misses.

I hear FSU fans talk about this game semi-frequently. The one interesting stat I find, is the follow-up game in Tallahassee had a foul discrepancy of 40-17 in favor of FSU. Perhaps a little bit of make-up calls? Would be interesting to review the footage, if anyone can find it.

Honestly, that year FSU was just a monster inside with Al Thornton and Alexander Johnson, plus a physical guards like Jason Rich.

The refs were suspended because Sheldon Williams and Alexander Johnson were assessed double-techs, resulting in Johnson fouling out of the game. However it was obvious in real time that Johnson did nothing to deserve a tech. He was walking away after a foul when Williams approached him and shoved him. Instead of FSU being awarded FTs and the ball, the double tech was whistled, Johnson was eliminated, and Williams played the final 8 min plus OT with 4 fouls.

The league reviewed the situation and determined the referee crew made an egregious, game altering error and suspended them.

That FSU team was a Sweet 16 type of team. They were made an example of in the era of the RPI and excluded from the tourney despite a 9-7 ACC finish because of a poor Non-Con schedule. But as I recall, Hamilton tried to get FSU into one of the early season tourneys (fewer back then) and no one wanted us because we had been so bad in recent years. So despite being a top 40 KenPom team, FSU didn’t dance.

**edit, I was off a year about Toney Douglas. Forgot he was sitting out that season.

 

[GE Nole]

I watched the first game that year at a bar in Chapel Hill. Fun experience. Truly was a masterpiece of a game to watch, outside of the refs. Back and forth all day and up and down the court too.

UNC fans were in utter disbelief at Johnson being assessed a tech, but I figured they were as biased as me. But when I logged into some message boards later I realized virtually everyone outside of Duke fans felt that way, and even som Duke fans were admitting it was a really bad mistake.

Johnson had a double double in 14 minutes of play, by the way. Sheldon went off after Johnson left.

Coach K said after the game that Thornton’s performance was one of the greatest displays of basketball by an opposing player in Cameron he’s ever seen. 37/15/5...

Game 2, I was in attendance down in Tallahassee. Not nearly as aesthetically pleasing of a game. Neither team liked the other and fans were obviously in a sour mood. Duke allowed it to become a street fight and that’s not usually ideal for beating FSU.

 

[nole96]

Honestly, that year FSU was just a monster inside with Al Thornton and Alexander Johnson, plus a penetrating future NBA point guard in Toney Douglas. They put teams in position where it was hard not to foul.

The refs were suspended because Sheldon Williams and Alexander Johnson were assessed double-techs, resulting in Johnson fouling out of the game. However it was obvious in real time that Johnson did nothing to deserve a tech. He was walking away after a foul when Williams approached him and shoved him. Instead of FSU being awarded FTs and the ball, the double tech was whistled, Johnson was eliminated, and Williams played the final 8 min plus OT with 4 fouls.

The league reviewed the situation and determined the referee crew made an egregious, game altering error and suspended them.

That FSU team was a Sweet 16 type of team. They were made an example of in the era of the RPI and excluded from the tourney despite a 9-7 ACC finish because of a poor Non-Con schedule. But as I recall, Hamilton tried to get FSU into one of the early season tourneys (fewer back then) and no one wanted us because we had been so bad in recent years. So despite being a top 40 KenPom team, FSU didn’t dance.

That fiasco ended up being the reason FSU was left out. Absolutely no chance a 20-8 (10-6) team from the ACC that swept #1 Duke gets left out.

 

[GE Nole]

That fiasco ended up being the reason FSU was left out. Absolutely no chance a 20-8 (10-6) team from the ACC that swept #1 Duke gets left out.

You’re not wrong. But FSU probably sneaks in as well if they didn’t lose to a bad Wake team in the opening game of ACCT. Or drop the buzzer beater at home to UNC.

Noles just didn’t have the same culture of winning the team does now. Hamilton hadn’t really gotten rid of all the loser blood. Good talent but hadn’t learned to win. Toney Douglas, Chris Singleton, and Mike Snaer changed that.

 

[WojoRising]

Redickulous

 

[dukedevilz]

I assume you mean 40-17 free throws, not fouls. There is nothing unusual about a FT discrepancy when one offense is clearly physical inside and the other offense settles for jumpers. But 43-11? When the 43 is rewarded to the jump shooting team and the 11 to the team pushing the ball inside? Makes no sense.

In the first game, FSU attempted 75(!) two point shots (most of them right near the basket), vs just 10 from beyond the arc, yet were rewarded with just 11 free throw attempts all game. An overtime game no less. Duke attempted 33 fewer 2-point shots, and got rewarded with that 43-11 FT edge.

Find me another game in the history of this sport where the losing team made 13 more field goals than the winning team. I'll give you all weekend. You won't find one. And even if you could find one close, I guarantee you the losing team lost big on the boards. FSU out-rebounded Duke 52-37.

There is nothing unusual about a 40-17 free throw discrepancy? How about when the losing team is #3 in the nation in free throws made per game, and has two of the top five players in the country in free throw attempts? We got to the foul line A LOT in 2006.

I'll assume the game at Cameron was officiated poorly. All I'm saying, is the officials may have been a little favorable towards FSU at the Tuck, perhaps to compensate for the criticism of how the first matchup was officiated.

Honestly, that year FSU was just a monster inside with Al Thornton and Alexander Johnson, plus a physical guards like Jason Rich.

The refs were suspended because Sheldon Williams and Alexander Johnson were assessed double-techs, resulting in Johnson fouling out of the game. However it was obvious in real time that Johnson did nothing to deserve a tech. He was walking away after a foul when Williams approached him and shoved him. Instead of FSU being awarded FTs and the ball, the double tech was whistled, Johnson was eliminated, and Williams played the final 8 min plus OT with 4 fouls.

The league reviewed the situation and determined the referee crew made an egregious, game altering error and suspended them.

That FSU team was a Sweet 16 type of team. They were made an example of in the era of the RPI and excluded from the tourney despite a 9-7 ACC finish because of a poor Non-Con schedule. But as I recall, Hamilton tried to get FSU into one of the early season tourneys (fewer back then) and no one wanted us because we had been so bad in recent years. So despite being a top 40 KenPom team, FSU didn’t dance.

**edit, I was off a year about Toney Douglas. Forgot he was sitting out that season.

I think you guys may have the highest ranked team in KenPom history to miss the tournament. FSU was #26 in 2004, which was just a freakishly good year for the league. But yeah, tough break in 2004 and 2006, no question.

 

[JimboBBN]

I mean, 15 to 28 in fouls called isn’t crazy discrepancy, especially for CIS. I didn’t watch the game or at least don’t remember it, but I’m sure it looked a lot worse than those stats.

 

[GE Nole]

There is nothing unusual about a 40-17 free throw discrepancy? How about when the losing team is #3 in the nation in free throws made per game, and has two of the top five players in the country in free throw attempts? We got to the foul line A LOT in 2006.

I'll assume the game at Cameron was officiated poorly. All I'm saying, is the officials may have been a little favorable towards FSU at the Tuck, perhaps to compensate for the criticism of how the first matchup was officiated.



I think you guys may have the highest ranked team in KenPom history to miss the tournament. FSU was #26 in 2004, which was just a freakishly good year for the league. But yeah, tough break in 2004 and 2006, no question.

With the benefit of perspective, those years were oddly formative in creating a false narrative about Hamilton/FSU that persisted really until the last few years.

FSU fans were ready to fire him in 2007 and 2008. “Been here 5 years and couldn’t even make the tournament one time despite lotto pick Al Thornton!” (Never mind that Thornton had no other high major offer and was a 2 star coming in). And national pundits would frequently point out that FSU just couldn’t win important games, even into the 2017 era, despite FSU winning an ACC Championship in 2012 and making a Sweet 16 in 2011.

But as advanced metrics became more mainstream and people started to judge teams by more than just the very flawed RPI and the subjective human polls, people started to realize that Hamilton had built a consistent program operating just below the real elite. Which is remarkable at a school that basically had 4-5 years of any basketball history before Ham arrived.

I have often wondered how the narrative might have been different if FSU is invited to the Big Dance in 2004, 2006, and 2007 (Toney Douglas missed 6 games with a broken hand—FSU went 19-6 with him, including wins over eventual champ UF, at Duke, and top 15 Maryland, but went just 1-5 without him).

Obviously FSU fans would have been much more supportive early on. Would better recruits have started saying yes earlier? Does FSU become what UVA is now? Does Hamilton leave on his own for another school around 2009?

 

[GE Nole]

I mean, 15 to 28 in fouls called isn’t crazy discrepancy, especially for CIS. I didn’t watch the game or at least don’t remember it, but I’m sure it looked a lot worse than those stats.

The suspension was all about the inappropriate double-tech and ultimate ejection of Alexander Johnson.

 

[dukedevilz]

With the benefit of perspective, those years were oddly formative in creating a false narrative about Hamilton/FSU that persisted really until the last few years.

FSU fans were ready to fire him in 2007 and 2008. “Been here 5 years and couldn’t even make the tournament one time despite lotto pick Al Thornton!” (Never mind that Thornton had no other high major offer and was a 2 star coming in). And national pundits would frequently point out that FSU just couldn’t win important games, even into the 2017 era, despite FSU winning an ACC Championship in 2012 and making a Sweet 16 in 2011.

But as advanced metrics became more mainstream and people started to judge teams by more than just the very flawed RPI and the subjective human polls, people started to realize that Hamilton had built a consistent program operating just below the real elite. Which is remarkable at a school that basically had 4-5 years of any basketball history before Ham arrived.

I have often wondered how the narrative might have been different if FSU is invited to the Big Dance in 2004, 2006, and 2007 (Toney Douglas missed 6 games with a broken hand—FSU went 19-6 with him, including wins over eventual champ UF, at Duke, and top 15 Maryland, but went just 1-5 without him).

Obviously FSU fans would have been much more supportive early on. Would better recruits have started saying yes earlier? Does FSU become what UVA is now? Does Hamilton leave on his own for another school around 2009?

Lots of interesting what-if scenarios. The recruiting has certainly taking off in recent years. Hard to imagine FSU not being a consistent top 25 team anytime soon.

So the '04 and '07 teams were both below .500 in the ACC. What are your thoughts on teams getting at-large bids with sub .500 records in league play? I haven't thought about it too much, myself. But, I know there are some pundits that are adamant sub .500 teams shouldn't receive at-large bids.

 

[GhostOf301]

Ahhhh. Salty vaginas 15 years later.

 

[Afamu]

So what has happened since 2006. Duke is still at the top with 2 more NC's and FSU is still a wannabe. Do better, stop making excuses.

And I bet no opponent has ever gotten the shaft at FSU huh?

Geez.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

If they got suspended, then obviously the officiating crew made some mistakes. Probably some blatant misses.

I hear FSU fans talk about this game semi-frequently. The one interesting stat I find, is the follow-up game in Tallahassee had a foul discrepancy of 40-17 in favor of FSU. Perhaps a little bit of make-up calls? Would be interesting to review the footage, if anyone can find it.

It was 30-17 discrepancy in favor of FSU, a difference of 13... same as the game at Duke.

 

[GE Nole]

Lots of interesting what-if scenarios. The recruiting has certainly taking off in recent years. Hard to imagine FSU not being a consistent top 25 team anytime soon.

So the '04 and '07 teams were both below .500 in the ACC. What are your thoughts on teams getting at-large bids with sub .500 records in league play? I haven't thought about it too much, myself. But, I know there are some pundits that are adamant sub .500 teams shouldn't receive at-large bids.

I’m fine with it. Like all things in life, it’s about the totality of the circumstances.

What if a team went 13-0 in non con play, including wins over 4 major conference champs on neutral courts or the road, but went 8-10 in conference play? We really gonna keep a 21-10 team out that beat 4 conference champs?

In the 2004 team’s case, they were objectively a top 30 team. Teams in the top 30 should make a 68 (64 back then) team tournament. Otherwise, what are we doing?

In 2007, FSU demonstrated it fit for a widely known about and discussed rule of the committee: if a team is substantially different when a player is hurt/not hurt, then they will be judged on how they perform with the team that’s available for the tournament. The Kenyon Martin rule.

Toney Douglas was back before the season ended and FSU proved they were substantially better with him. Seemed pretty clear cut. Especially with wins over multiple top 5 seeds, some on the road.

 

[GE Nole]

So what has happened since 2006. Duke is still at the top with 2 more NC's and FSU is still a wannabe. Do better, stop making excuses.

And I bet no opponent has ever gotten the shaft at FSU huh?

Geez.

This...is a weird response.

 

[dukedevilz]

I’m fine with it. Like all things in life, it’s about the totality of the circumstances.

What if a team went 13-0 in non con play, including wins over 4 major conference champs on neutral courts or the road, but went 8-10 in conference play? We really gonna keep a 21-10 team out that beat 4 conference champs?

In the 2004 team’s case, they were objectively a top 30 team. Teams in the top 30 should make a 68 (64 back then) team tournament. Otherwise, what are we doing?

In 2007, FSU demonstrated it fit for a widely known about and discussed rule of the committee: if a team is substantially different when a player is hurt/not hurt, then they will be judged on how they perform with the team that’s available for the tournament. The Kenyon Martin rule.

Toney Douglas was back before the season ended and FSU proved they were substantially better with him. Seemed pretty clear cut. Especially with wins over multiple top 5 seeds, some on the road.

I think one of the pundits I was listening to was insisting that if you can't go .500 in your own league, you're not a legitimate contender. The NCAA Tournament is the right to play for a championship. But, there are probably multiple sub .500 teams this year that are more than deserving - Indiana, Minnesota, and Oklahoma State are a few that come to mind. Wasn't a fan of Ohio State getting a bid two years ago; they went 8-12 in league play and didn't have an overly impressive OOC performance either. Just hate to see teams like Davidson, Saint Mary's, and Lipscomb get left out when they have top 50 wins, and they're close to 30 wins in the season. Would be interesting to track to see how non-power conference at-large bids perform in the tournament (perhaps for only schools that weren't ranked) versus P6 schools that went sub .500 in league play. I know VCU and Wichita State both made a Final Four in the past 10 years - and they fit that criteria.

I wonder how effective the committee has been in implementing the Kenyon Martin rule? Purdue losing Robbie Hummel late in the 2010 season was a huge blow; they got downgraded to a 4 seed, which was probably about right. Duke was a 2 seed in 2012 with the loss of Ryan Kelly. Don't think that was accurate. Your example in 2007 seems to indicate they probably missed the mark there, as well. It seems like some also say, "We can't assume they would have won that game with him in the lineup." And others will say, "We can't assume they would have lost that game with him out of the lineup." Just very hard to understand how exactly they apply that rule.

 

[CB3UK]

Meh, that's a regular season game.
There was an Elite 8 game played 4 years ago that takes the cake. UNC & UK fans know exactly which game that was.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

How good/bad of a job are refs doing this year?

 

[lurkeraspect84]

How good/bad of a job are refs doing this year?

Same ole status quo. Using their authority to oppress young men from playing games.

 

[sgrooms]

Does anyone have access to Synergy? They started recording all college games of the top 100 NBA prospects during the 2005/2006 season. The next season they recorded all games. They might have a copy of the game.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Does anyone have access to Synergy? They started recording all college games of the top 100 NBA prospects during the 2005/2006 season. The next season they recorded all games. They might have a copy of the game.

Worst log in screen ever. How do ppl get invites? Will share 10/1

 

[sgrooms]

Worst log in screen ever. How do ppl get invites? Will share 10/1

It's mostly for sports teams and the media. I'm sure it costs a pretty penny, too.

 

[boilerzz]

Come on man? You think this is bad? This game was Purdue's introduction to Bo Boroski (who is a known IU fan). He's been fvcking us ever sense.

Oklahoma 87-82 Purdue (Nov 28, 2008) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Oklahoma Sooners vs. Purdue Boilermakers NCAAM game from November 28, 2008 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

Plus, there was this in the last minute:

Moore turned it over on Purdue's next possession, but the Sooners nearly did as well -- at least, until referee Michael Stephens blew his whistle and appeared to give Oklahoma a timeout during a loose ball. It wound up being an "inadvertent whistle," according to Purdue coach Matt Painter, who was livid when the jump ball was awarded to Oklahoma.

 

[GE Nole]

I think one of the pundits I was listening to was insisting that if you can't go .500 in your own league, you're not a legitimate contender. The NCAA Tournament is the right to play for a championship. But, there are probably multiple sub .500 teams this year that are more than deserving - Indiana, Minnesota, and Oklahoma State are a few that come to mind. Wasn't a fan of Ohio State getting a bid two years ago; they went 8-12 in league play and didn't have an overly impressive OOC performance either. Just hate to see teams like Davidson, Saint Mary's, and Lipscomb get left out when they have top 50 wins, and they're close to 30 wins in the season. Would be interesting to track to see how non-power conference at-large bids perform in the tournament (perhaps for only schools that weren't ranked) versus P6 schools that went sub .500 in league play. I know VCU and Wichita State both made a Final Four in the past 10 years - and they fit that criteria.

I wonder how effective the committee has been in implementing the Kenyon Martin rule? Purdue losing Robbie Hummel late in the 2010 season was a huge blow; they got downgraded to a 4 seed, which was probably about right. Duke was a 2 seed in 2012 with the loss of Ryan Kelly. Don't think that was accurate. Your example in 2007 seems to indicate they probably missed the mark there, as well. It seems like some also say, "We can't assume they would have won that game with him in the lineup." And others will say, "We can't assume they would have lost that game with him out of the lineup." Just very hard to understand how exactly they apply that rule.

I agree that they have been pretty inconsistent over the years with the Kenyon Martin rule. I guess that’s the product of human subjectivity. You would hope that in the advanced analytics age you could have people see that Team Y is 15th in efficiency with Player X healthy and only 64th with him hurt.

And yes, if a mid-major is top 30 they should be in. Any top 30 team should be in. The 30-4 mid major and the 19-12 team in a beast power conference.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Never forget 2/4/06 and the worst officiated game in the history of college basketball.

Fans like to complain about their team getting shafted by the refs, but nothing will come close to what took place that day at Cameron Indoor Stadium. To this day I've not seen anything like it. Pure domination in every facet of the game, ending in a loss. It was so bad, the entire officiating crew was suspended, the ACC wouldn't put it in their "video vault", and highlights of the game don't exist anywhere.

Take a gander at the box score. You will think it's fake.

Duke 97-96 Florida State (Feb 4, 2006) Game Stats - ESPN

Complete team stats and game leaders for the Duke Blue Devils vs. Florida State Seminoles NCAAM game from February 4, 2006 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

10-11 at the line...Lost by one.

Just saying....

 

[GE Nole]

Does anyone have access to Synergy? They started recording all college games of the top 100 NBA prospects during the 2005/2006 season. The next season they recorded all games. They might have a copy of the game.

Wow that’s awesome. Didn’t realize that. And yeah, synergy costs A LOT.

 

[dukedevilz]

@Jaycg15 didn't you say you had Synergy? I thought you said you paid for access for one month out of the year?

Also, for any others that know how to track down old footage, I would love to review the Georgia Tech home game against UNC in 2000. I thought Jason Collier was intentionally punched - and nothing was done about it. Just curious if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[Jaycg15]

@Jaycg15 didn't you say you had Synergy? I thought you said you paid for access for one month out of the year?

Also, for any others that know how to track down old footage, I would love to review the Georgia Tech home game against UNC in 2000. I thought Jason Collier was intentionally punched - and nothing was done about it. Just curious if my memory serves me correctly.

I did, but you have to pay extra for the video option. Pretty much made it not worth it for more than a month. Really cool stats though.

 

[sgrooms]

I did, but you have to pay extra for the video option. Pretty much made it not worth it for more than a month. Really cool stats though.

Do you happen to know the rates for video access?

 

[Villian07]

Meh, that's a regular season game.
There was an Elite 8 game played 4 years ago that takes the cake. UNC & UK fans know exactly which game that was.

UK SS game in 2014 was worse than that one. Wayyyyyyy worse.

 

[Jaycg15]

Do you happen to know the rates for video access?

I don't believe there's an option for fans. You have to be a coach/team, and I think you're talking in the thousands of dollars/year at that point.