The 2020/2021 ACC regular season thread

coryfly

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Sure. Why not? They have capable players. I do wonder how the group will respond, however, knowing that there is no postseason play available. Not even an ACC Tournament this year. Seems like it might be challenging to maintain intensity and motivation during the season.
Or they could rally around it and play loose at the same time. I would think what you proposed more likely but you never know how a group will respond. Just trying to support how they could end up 7th. I don't personally think they will but you never know.
 

GE Nole

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Sure. Why not? They have capable players. I do wonder how the group will respond, however, knowing that there is no postseason play available. Not even an ACC Tournament this year. Seems like it might be challenging to maintain intensity and motivation during the season.
Or they could rally around it and play loose at the same time. I would think what you proposed more likely but you never know how a group will respond. Just trying to support how they could end up 7th. I don't personally think they will but you never know.
I’m gonna be honest—I just don’t think they are good enough to finish 7th. GT finishing above FSU would be pretty surprising to me. Who knows how the ban will impact the team mentally, I just wouldn’t have them that high period.

But the bigger shocker on the list is VT at 11. That seems way off. Way way off. They could legit finish 15th. 13th feels like as high as it gets for the Hokies this year.
 
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dukedevilz

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I’m gonna be honest—I just don’t think they are good enough to finish 7th. GT finishing above FSU would be pretty surprising to me. Who knows how the ban will impact the team mentally, I just wouldn’t have them that high period.

But the bigger shocker on the list is VT at 11. That seems way off. Way way off. They could legit finish 15th. 13th feels like as high as it gets for the Hokies this year.
Virginia Tech could be truly awful. They have 3 returning players that were in the rotation last year in Wabissa Bede, Isaiah Wilkins, and PJ Horne. In hindsight, I think I would have them lower because their depth looks like it came straight from Wofford itself. I think Landers Nolley will have a really good freshmen year. This team is limited in size, in depth, in talent.

The thing about the ACC, though, is you could argue there are 4 teams that have little to no shot at even making an NIT this year (not even considering GT). Boston College, Clemson, Wake Forest, and Virginia Tech. BC will be without Wynston Tabbs for the year. Clemson lost Clyde Trapp and Jonathan Baehere to injuries - and 4 starters from last year. Wake lost Jaylen Hoard to the league - and they're still Wake Forest. So even though I agree that VT doesn't look overly impressive on paper, I still think they might be able to finish as high as 12th. An 11th place finish is a little too ambitious. I'll concede that.
 
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FaithPlusOne

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This is going to be an odd year. Some teams are starting the season with a conference game and the race seems more wide open than usual. The conference may be down in total but it should be fun.
 

GE Nole

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Virginia Tech could be truly awful. They have 3 returning players that were in the rotation last year in Wabissa Bede, Isaiah Wilkins, and PJ Horne. In hindsight, I think I would have them lower because their depth looks like it came straight from Wofford itself. I think Landers Nolley will have a really good freshmen year. This team is limited in size, in depth, in talent.

The thing about the ACC, though, is you could argue there are 4 teams that have little to no shot at even making an NIT this year (not even considering GT). Boston College, Clemson, Wake Forest, and Virginia Tech. BC will be without Wynston Tabbs for the year. Clemson lost Clyde Trapp and Jonathan Baehere to injuries - and 4 starters from last year. Wake lost Jaylen Hoard to the league - and they're still Wake Forest. So even though I agree that VT doesn't look overly impressive on paper, I still think they might be able to finish as high as 12th. An 11th place finish is a little too ambitious. I'll concede that.
ACC definitely down a tad this year compared to last couple years.
 

GE Nole

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@GE Nole Congrats on the Scottie Barnes pickup. Huge!
Thanks! We are pumped in Tallahassee.

Seems like Ham has done a great job adjusting to the new recruiting world after really struggling from 2012-2015 (our 2013 team would have been below .500 if not for the ridiculous string of buzzer beaters by Mike Snaer and 2015 was also a sub-75 team on KenPom). We now seem to be landing one top 10-30 type recruit each season, to go along with a steady stream of JUCOs/grad transfers, solid 4 stars (Terance Mann, Malik Beasley), and under the radar guys with potential (Mfiondu Kabengele, Devin Vassell).

Dwayne Bacon in 2016
Jonathan Isaac in 2017
MJ Walker in 2018 (he wasn't quite to the level of the rest of these guys, but still good)
Patrick Williams in 2019
Scottie Barnes in 2020
 

lurkeraspect84

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And got him to cancel his Miami visit last weekend, too. When Ham sinks his teeth into mom and dad (they came with Scottie to Tallahassee), it's usually over.
I always liked Hamilton due to him being an assistant coach and associate head coach at UK for 12 years. Well, that and he's just a likeable guy.

@Bert Higginbotha could tell you a lot more stories about him due to him being close with Joe B.
 

GE Nole

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I always liked Hamilton due to him being an assistant coach and associate head coach at UK for 12 years. Well, that and he's just a likeable guy.

@Bert Higginbotha could tell you a lot more stories about him due to him being close with Joe B.
Oh yeah, Bert has shared some stories. I've had the distinct pleasure of getting to engage and converse with Ham quite a bit over the years in Tallahassee. Everywhere from post season award banquets for the team, to pre-season practices and workouts, to seeing him buying a thanksgiving turkey at the store. That guy is as genuine as it gets when it comes to raising the boys like his own, which makes sense given he adopted and raised several of his younger siblings when he was at Tennessee-Martin.

And his record in the ACC, at a school with extremely limited basketball tradition no less, speaks for itself.
 

GE Nole

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Feel like it's only a matter of time before Noles break through. Always tough D, some serious talent there.
Break through with a national title? I don’t know about that. We still usually have only 2-4 top 100 kids on the entire roster at any given time. But I guess March is crazy.

Or did you have a different thing in mind when you said break through?
 

Noahtogo24

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Man Va Tech would have been a NCAA Tourney team if Clarke and Blackshear would have stayed? Obviously Blackshear has been picked as an all first team SEC player preseason, but I have seen Chris Clarke as a player listed on big 12 preseason first team as well.
 
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GE Nole

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Man Va Tech would have been a NCAA Tourney team if Clarke and Blackshear would have stayed? Obviously Blackshear has been picked as an all first team SEC player preseason, but I have seen Chris Clarke as a player listed on big 12 preseason first team as well.
Maybe. But they still would have been awfully thin. Would have still lost Ahmed Hill, Justin Robinson (their heart and soul), Alexander-Walker, and Ty Outlaw.
 

GE Nole

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I could see Florida State "breaking through" with a Final Four appearance sometime within the next 2-4 years.
Final Four appearance seems reasonably possible. But also so dependent on the draw and health in March. 2011 looked primed for one except Chris Singleton had a broken foot. I actually thought the 2007 team could have been one of our best chances—beat eventual national champ UF and also beat Duke in Cameron. But Toney Douglas broke his hand in February and even though he returned in time to win a game in the ACCT, the committee sent us to the NIT. And of course two years ago we were a couple minutes away from the Final Four.
 

Ipartiedwithhopgood

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Break through with a national title? I don’t know about that. We still usually have only 2-4 top 100 kids on the entire roster at any given time. But I guess March is crazy.

Or did you have a different thing in mind when you said break through?
Final Four... I think when a coach reaches the FF it's some real validation.
 

GE Nole

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Final Four... I think when a coach reaches the FF it's some real validation.
Ehh. I'm much more impressed by year over year, consistently finishing in the top tier of your conference (or top two tiers if the league is as hard as the ACC) and making the second weekend of the NCAAT. Final Four runs in isolation can be real fluky.

Shaka Smart is not a good coach. But hey, they pulled some upsets and made a run to the Final Four one year!
 

Ipartiedwithhopgood

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Ehh. I'm much more impressed by year over year, consistently finishing in the top tier of your conference (or top two tiers if the league is as hard as the ACC) and making the second weekend of the NCAAT. Final Four runs in isolation can be real fluky.

Shaka Smart is not a good coach. But hey, they pulled some upsets and made a run to the Final Four one year!
Yeah Hamilton has been to the 2nd weekend of the T like, 3 or 4 times in 33 years, but no doubt he is coming on strong now. Which, is why I said it could be a matter of time before he broke through to a FF. He's trending up, he really is! His teams have probably won more post season games in the last 3 years than they did his first 30 years combined. Not slamming him.

The reality is most guys that consistently finish in the top tier in the top leagues are making final fours unless their name is Jaime Dixon.

I get how you feel about a guy like Shaka but...

Shaka accomplished kinda what you described as being impressive in your first paragraph. After his FF, he made the tournament 4 straight years, won a few 1st Round games, was a tough out, and won 26+ games every year. He's just not making a lot of noise his first time up at a P5 job. Eerily similar to Hamilton at OK St, though not quite as bad.
 

GE Nole

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Yeah Hamilton has been to the 2nd weekend of the T like, 3 or 4 times in 33 years, but no doubt he is coming on strong now. Which, is why I said it could be a matter of time before he broke through to a FF. He's trending up, he really is!

The reality is most guys that consistently finish in the top tier in the top leagues are making final fours unless their name is Jaime Dixon.

I get how you feel about a guy like Shaka but...

Shaka accomplished kinda what you described as being impressive in your first paragraph. After his FF, he made the tournament 4 straight years, won a few 1st Round games, was a tough out, and won 26+ games every year. He's just not making a lot of noise his first time up at a P5 job. Eerily similar to Hamilton at OK St, though not quite as bad.
Shaka hasn’t won a tourney game since 2013. He’s only made it beyond the second round once.

Hamilton’s career numbers are muted early in his career because he took over terrible programs and built them up, only to leave right when the winning foundation was laid. Okie State has finished 6th, 7th, and 8th in the Big 8 for the 3 seasons prior to Ham arriving. Ham’s First year they go 8-20. But he builds it the right way and they are 4th and 5th in the Big 8 his last two years. He leaves Eddie Sutton a very good roster and Okie State goes 24-8 and wins the Big 8 in his first year, with all of Ham’s guys as juniors and seniors.

Miami was even more impressive. The Hurricanes were literally about to shut down the program. Not making that up. They weren’t even in a conference. Then they get thrust into the behemoth known as the Big East and they go 1-17 in Big East play in their first year. 1-17. Five or so years later Hamilton has them as Regular Season champs of the Big East and finishing in the top 10 of the AP poll. 15-3 in the Big East. From 1-17 to 15-3.

Then he leaves for the NBA for a season before coming to FSU. Took over an FSU team that was 9-21 and hadn’t had a winning record in the ACC in a decade. Now we haven’t had a losing season in the ACC for more than a decade. And what you’re seeing is what would have happened if Hamilton has stayed at Okie State or Miami longer than just the initial rebuild. He didn’t suddenly learn how to coach. He just is enjoying the fruits of his labor for once.

Shaka’s resume, despite having a Final Four, doesn’t indicate he can have anywhere close to the same kind of success in a power conference. In fact, VCU had more consistent success with Will Wade than Shaka.

And it’s not just Shaka. Other coaches get the miracle Final Four run too. You think Porter Moser is a great coach who “broke through” because Loyola Chicago made a Final Four from an upset filled bracket?
 
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Ipartiedwithhopgood

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Shaka hasn’t won a tourney game since 2013. He’s only made it beyond the second round once.

Hamilton’s career numbers are muted early in his career because he took over terrible programs and built them up, only to leave right when the winning foundation was laid. Okie State has finished 6th, 7th, and 8th in the Big 8 for the 3 seasons prior to Ham arriving. Ham’s First year they go 8-20. But he builds it the right way and they are 4th and 5th in the Big 8 his last two years. He leaves Eddie Sutton a very good roster and Okie State goes 24-8 and wins the Big 8 in his first year, with all of Ham’s guys as juniors and seniors.

Miami was even more impressive. The Hurricanes were literally about to shut down the program. Not making that up. They weren’t even in a conference. Then they get thrust into the behemoth known as the Big East and they go 1-17 in Big East play in their first year. 1-17. Five or so years later Hamilton has them as Regular Season champs of the Big East and finishing in the top 10 of the AP poll. 15-3 in the Big East. From 1-17 to 15-3.

Then he leaves for the NBA for a season before coming to FSU. Took over an FSU team that was 9-21 and hadn’t had a winning record in the ACC in a decade. Now we haven’t had a losing season in the ACC for more than a decade. And what you’re seeing is what would have happened if Hamilton has stayed at Okie State or Miami longer than just the initial rebuild. He didn’t suddenly learn how to coach. He just is enjoying the fruits of his labor for once.

Shaka’s resume, despite having a Final Four, doesn’t indicate he can have anywhere close to the same kind of success in a power conference. In fact, VCU had more consistent success with Will Wade than Shaka.

And it’s not just Shaka. Other coaches get the miracle Final Four run too. You think Porter Moser is a great coach who “broke through” because Loyola Chicago made a Final Four from an upset filled bracket?
Nowhere am I arguing making one final four and doing virtually nothing else makes anybody a great coach. I'm not sure why you're pitching this straw man argument to me.

Will Wade coached 2 years at VCU using Shaka's players, Shaka coached 6. Shaka won 26+ games EVERY year. You act as if he he made the FF once and had a losing record every other season.

I'm not sure why you are triggered. I've attempted to say some flattering things about your coach - I said he might break through and reach a FF. Some other poster said the same exact thing after I said it and you were like, "yeah man final four seems possible!"

I'm breaking up with you. Good night.
 
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GE Nole

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Nowhere am I arguing making one final four and doing virtually nothing else makes anybody a great coach. I'm not sure why you're pitching this straw man argument to me.

Will Wade coached 2 years at VCU using Shaka's players, Shaka coached 6. Shaka won 26+ games EVERY year. You act as if he he made the FF once and had a losing record every other season.

I'm not sure why you are triggered. I've attempted to say some flattering things about your coach - I said he might break through and reach a FF. Some other poster said the same exact thing after I said it and you were like, "yeah man final four seems possible!"

I'm breaking up with you. Good night.
Haha. I’m not saying it’s impossible for FSU to make a Final Four. My “ehh” comment was when you said you thought making a Final Four gave a coach “validation.” You didn’t mention any other criteria, just the Final Four—so I disagreed. It’s just a good natured discussion.

The only reason I brought up Ham’s record was in response to Shaka being similar, but Shaka hasn’t done anything at one of the most well-funded, easy to recruit to programs in the country. Just didn’t see the comparison
 

GE Nole

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Apparently MJ Walker was helped off the court with a knee injury in a scrimmage. Don’t know exactly how serious but serious enough that it’s at least a few weeks.

Would be a huge hit to FSU’s perimeter depth and defense. Especially since Rayquan Evans (JUCO transfer who was expected to run back up PG duties) has already missed a few weeks with a hamstring.
 

Noahtogo24

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Markell Johnson, Wendell Moore, and Elijah Hughes all seem a good bit too high.

I’d move Markell down to like 8 and take Moore and Hughes totally off. Add in Diakite and Mooney in the back half.
@GE Nole - any thoughts on the updated ABC 20/20 on the FSU law professor?? Just watched it, and it looks like the Aldeson family is finally going to get it.
 

GE Nole

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@GE Nole - any thoughts on the updated ABC 20/20 on the FSU law professor?? Just watched it, and it looks like the Aldeson family is finally going to get it.
I don’t watch network TV, but it seems pretty clear down here that the family was involved. Biggest question has always been, was Wendy involved?

My interactions with Wendy were always warm and welcoming. And she adored the kids. Do I think she wanted some in her family to send a message? Possibly. Maybe probably. I know she wanted to move back down to south Florida.

But I just have a hard time seeing her participating in the arrangement of a murder. I think it’s more likely she wanted her brother to help send a message to get Dan to agree to let her take the kids to south Florida, and the brother decided he was just gonna have him killed (because her brother is a ****ing dumbass).

@Noahtogo24 when was this update as of?
 

dukedevilz

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Don’t know about Moore or Hughes...
Markell Johnson, Wendell Moore, and Elijah Hughes all seem a good bit too high.

I’d move Markell down to like 8 and take Moore and Hughes totally off. Add in Diakite and Mooney in the back half.
Here's my top 50, FWIW.

1. Jordan Nwora, Louisville
2. Cole Anthony, North Carolina
3. Tre Jones, Duke
4. Vernon Carey, Duke
5. Mamadi Diakite, Virginia
6. John Mooney, Notre Dame
7. Markell Johnson, NC State
8. Xavier Johnson, Pittsburgh
9. Elijah Hughes, Syracuse
10. Trent Forrest, Florida State
11. Samuel Williamson, Louisville
12. Garrison Brooks, North Carolina
13. Chris Lykes, Miami
14. Matthew Hurt, Duke
15. Braxton Key, Virginia
16. Dwayne Sutton, Louisville
17. James Banks, Georgia Tech
18. Steven Enoch, Louisville
19. Wendell Moore, Duke
20. Patrick Williams, Florida State
21. Nik Popovic, Boston College
22. Brandon Childress, Wake Forest
23. CJ Bryce, NC State
24. Trey McGowens, Pittsburgh
25. Christian Keeling, North Carolina
26. Tevin Mack, Clemson
27. Jose Alvarado, Georgia Tech
28. Armando Bacot, North Carolina
29. DJ Funderburk, NC State
30. Landers Nolley, Virginia Tech
31. Aamir Sims, Clemson
32. Kameron McGusty, Miami
33. Cassius Stanley, Duke
34. Rex Pflueger, Notre Dame
35. Buddy Boeheim, Syracuse
36. Kihei Clark, Virginia
37. Leaky Black, North Carolina
38. TJ Gibbs, Notre Dame
39. Lamarr Kimble, Louisville
40. Chaundee Brown, Wake Forest
41. MJ Walker, Florida State
42. Devon Daniels, NC State
43. Dejan Vasiljevic, Miami
44. Wabissa Bede, Virgina Tech
45. Prentiss Hubb, Notre Dame
46. Jairus Hamilton, Boston College
47. Jalen Carey, Syracuse
48. Michael Devoe, Georgia Tech
49. Jay Huff, Virginia
50. Malik Williams, Louisville
 

GE Nole

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Here's my top 50, FWIW.

1. Jordan Nwora, Louisville
2. Cole Anthony, North Carolina
3. Tre Jones, Duke
4. Vernon Carey, Duke
5. Mamadi Diakite, Virginia
6. John Mooney, Notre Dame
7. Markell Johnson, NC State
8. Xavier Johnson, Pittsburgh
9. Elijah Hughes, Syracuse
10. Trent Forrest, Florida State
11. Samuel Williamson, Louisville
12. Garrison Brooks, North Carolina
13. Chris Lykes, Miami
14. Matthew Hurt, Duke
15. Braxton Key, Virginia
16. Dwayne Sutton, Louisville
17. James Banks, Georgia Tech
18. Steven Enoch, Louisville
19. Wendell Moore, Duke
20. Patrick Williams, Florida State
21. Nik Popovic, Boston College
22. Brandon Childress, Wake Forest
23. CJ Bryce, NC State
24. Trey McGowens, Pittsburgh
25. Christian Keeling, North Carolina
26. Tevin Mack, Clemson
27. Jose Alvarado, Georgia Tech
28. Armando Bacot, North Carolina
29. DJ Funderburk, NC State
30. Landers Nolley, Virginia Tech
31. Aamir Sims, Clemson
32. Kameron McGusty, Miami
33. Cassius Stanley, Duke
34. Rex Pflueger, Notre Dame
35. Buddy Boeheim, Syracuse
36. Kihei Clark, Virginia
37. Leaky Black, North Carolina
38. TJ Gibbs, Notre Dame
39. Lamarr Kimble, Louisville
40. Chaundee Brown, Wake Forest
41. MJ Walker, Florida State
42. Devon Daniels, NC State
43. Dejan Vasiljevic, Miami
44. Wabissa Bede, Virgina Tech
45. Prentiss Hubb, Notre Dame
46. Jairus Hamilton, Boston College
47. Jalen Carey, Syracuse
48. Michael Devoe, Georgia Tech
49. Jay Huff, Virginia
50. Malik Williams, Louisville
Your top 10 is way better than the other top 10. I still would take off Hughes and replace him with maybe Williamson or Hurt. But way better.

Your top 50 looks really good too. But here’s a tip—Devin Vassell could very well be the second best player for FSU next year. Maybe not the pro potential as Patrick Williams, but the kid is about to announce himself.

I said the same thing about Kabengele on this board 24 months ago.
 

HRTheCard

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Louisville
You all can argue for who is coming in 2nd but Louisville is completing the trifecta this season