OT: School Shooting in South Florida

[Dattier]

I'm all about the freedom until you take someone else's away, then that person shall be dealt with. I am against the Government telling me what I can and cannot possess or do/put in my body. I don't think you understand that the longer you write the law books the less freedoms you have. The Governments job is easy, they've just made it more difficult over time.

I understand that.
There are some freedoms we voluntarily give up as the price of living in a functioning society, and it's preferable that way. It's why we grumble about the amount of taxes we have to pay, but not about the fact that we pay any taxes at all. There's a case to be made that the voluntary sacrifice of individual freedoms can, at times, lead to greater collective freedom.

 

[BStowers023]

I understand that.
There are some freedoms we voluntarily give up as the price of living in a functioning society, and it's preferable that way. It's why we grumble about the amount of taxes we have to pay, but not about the fact that we pay any taxes at all. There's a case to be made that the voluntary sacrifice of individual freedoms can, at times, lead to greater collective freedom.

Yeah but those sacrifices need to be held to an absolute minimum. A guy like Bernie Sanders prefers we give up our freedom for the "greater good" of society. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. A Government big enough to give you everything you want is a Government big enough to take everything you have.

 

[Dattier]

Yeah but those sacrifices need to be held to an absolute minimum. A guy like Bernie Sanders prefers we give up our freedom for the "greater good" of society. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. A Government big enough to give you everything you want is a Government big enough to take everything you have.

We need as few as necessary, but we also need as many as necessary. We should neither do away w/ necessary laws nor create frivolous laws, and we shouldn't resist the creation of necessary laws or the removal of unnecessary laws. There isn't a magical predetermined # that's ideal.

The govt should work for us. I don't see it as the adversary.

 

[BStowers023]

We need as few as necessary, but we also need as many as necessary. We should neither do away w/ necessary laws nor create frivolous laws, and we shouldn't resist the creation of necessary laws or the removal of unnecessary laws. There isn't a magical predetermined # that's ideal.

The govt should work for us. I don't see it as the adversary.

Maybe I am the only one who thinks the Government isn't responsible enough to be as big as it is an certainly not bigger. I mean the Pentagon just lost 800 million dollars. Unaccounted for and no idea where it is. They already overcharge for just about everything to justify taxing us more. We have police who's essential full-time duty is to sit on the side of the road/highway and hand out ticketsfor going 10mph over the speed limit to justify their paycheck. When something gets as big as our Government is, it's impossible to monitor and keep track of. Things run rampant and now we're how many trillion in debt? Completely inefficient. I'm not saying no laws or Government and create a anarchist society, but I think there need to be A LOT of cuts in all regards. I promise, society will take care of itself without Government intervention.

 

[bkingUK]

I understand that.
There are some freedoms we voluntarily give up as the price of living in a functioning society, and it's preferable that way. It's why we grumble about the amount of taxes we have to pay, but not about the fact that we pay any taxes at all. There's a case to be made that the voluntary sacrifice of individual freedoms can, at times, lead to greater collective freedom.

There is nothing voluntary about paying taxes. If you don't believe me, volunteer not to pay them.

In fact, nothing you listed above is voluntary.

 

[Dattier]

Maybe I am the only one who thinks the Government isn't responsible enough to be as big as it is an certainly not bigger. I mean the Pentagon just lost 800 million dollars. Unaccounted for and no idea where it is. They already overcharge for just about everything to justify taxing us more. We have police who's essential full-time duty is to sit on the side of the road/highway and hand out ticketsfor going 10mph over the speed limit to justify their paycheck. When something gets as big as our Government is, it's impossible to monitor and keep track of. Things run rampant and now we're how many trillion in debt? Completely inefficient. I'm not saying no laws or Government and create a anarchist society, but I think there need to be A LOT of cuts in all regards. I promise, society will take care of itself without Government intervention.

I think we have a fundamentally different way of looking at it, but I don't think we disagree by that much. There should be a lot of cuts, huge improvements in efficiency, and reprioritized spending elsewhere.

And neither of us wants anarchy.

I do not trust society to take care of certain things w/o too many self-serving strings attached. I trust a govt we can vote out more than I do the wealthy.

 

[BStowers023]

I think we have a fundamentally different way of looking at it, but I don't think we disagree by that much. There should be a lot of cuts, huge improvements in efficiency, and reprioritized spending elsewhere.

And neither of us wants anarchy.

I do not trust society to take care of certain things w/o too many self-serving strings attached. I trust a govt we can vote out more than I do the wealthy.

The problem is, you think putting new people in power will somehow change things. It won't. History tells us that. Society can take care of itself. There are plenty of charitable organizations to take care of the weak. I'm not saying 100% but a good majority. Put someone in power who's never had it and watch them change. It's human nature.

 

[Dattier]

There is nothing voluntary about paying taxes. If you don't believe me, volunteer not to pay them.

In fact, nothing you listed above is voluntary.

lol
You're right. That's not the right word...
There is no reasonable objection to the concept of paying some taxes and having certain limits upon our personal options as the result of living in a mutually beneficial society.

 

[Dattier]

The problem is, you think putting new people in power will somehow change things. It won't. History tells us that. Society can take care of itself. There are plenty of charitable organizations to take care of the weak. I'm not saying 100% but a good majority. Put someone in power who's never had it and watch them change. It's human nature.

No, that's not what I think. People in power need checks on that power, and the power of the vote is more effective than any influence we have over the wealthy. I trust democracy way more than I trust capitalism.

Private charities have strings attached that aren't beholden to the Constitution. They're great in their place. You're not saying 100% and I'm not saying 0%.