OT: School Shooting in South Florida

[Dattier]

Idiotic - the white male comment
Not idiotic - longer wait periods, tests and licensing

Alright! Now we're getting somewhere!

Are you actually denying that most of these shooters have been angry white males who had among their problems the idea that they were entitled to more?

Are you raising your sons to think women are something they are entitled to, for example? Because that's the kind of thing I mean and you're calling it idiotic.

I named 18 things after seeing you post variations on "What can we do?" several times. I cut the list to 10 things that overlap w/ theetommy's list. He's reasonable and I'm not... How about you?

 

[Dattier]

Yup. Don’t see any dumb, over the top liberal drivel in there do ya? I don’t. His post was solid.

10 of the 18 things I listed are variations on things he said.

You should consider his post that mine had several worthwhile considerations solid.

 

[theetommyt]

10 of the 18 things I listed are variations on things he said.

You should consider his post that mine had several worthwhile considerations solid.

I agree with this.

Citizens United is one of the most destructive court decisions in our nation's history. It is tangetially related to gun violence. If you hate George Soros you should hate citizen's united.

As far as the white male point. According to most of what I can find each race commits "mass shootings" at rates very similar to their proportion of population. However, white males commit drastically higher numbers of "random mass shootings" like the school shootings, Vegas, etc. Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American are more likely to be gang or relationship (not romantic) related. This particular distinction does lead to the conclusion that it is a mostly white male issue. It is overwhelmingly a male issue, however with numbers upwards of 98% male. I don't think this surprises anyone.

Edit for this:

Being white does not cause violence and mass shootings. Being black or Arab or Hispanic does not cause violence and mass shootings. There are cultural and societal forces at play. However, maybe being male may cause violence and mass shootings because that is the only consistent data point we see. However, cultural and societal forces are still much stronger than sex IMHO.

 

[SNU0821]

Alright! Now we're getting somewhere!

Are you actually denying that most of these shooters have been angry white males who had among their problems the idea that they were entitled to more?

Are you raising your sons to think women are something they are entitled to, for example? Because that's the kind of thing I mean and you're calling it idiotic.

I named 18 things after seeing you post variations on "What can we do?" several times. I cut the list to 10 things that overlap w/ theetommy's list. He's reasonable and I'm not... How about you?

This isn’t even worth getting in to with you. Shame on me for even engaging you in this discussion when we were having a good discussion without you.

 

[Dattier]

This isn’t even worth getting in to with you. Shame on me for even engaging you in this discussion when we were having a good discussion without you.

I'll continue to have a good discussion w/o you then, I guess.

Citizens United is one of the most destructive court decisions in our nation's history. It is tangetially related to gun violence. If you hate George Soros you should hate citizen's united.

As far as the white male point. According to most of what I can find each race commits "mass shootings" at rates very similar to their proportion of population. However, white males commit drastically higher numbers of "random mass shootings" like the school shootings, Vegas, etc. Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American are more likely to be gang or relationship (not romantic) related. This particular distinction does lead to the conclusion that it is a mostly white male issue. It is overwhelmingly a male issue, however with numbers upwards of 98% male. I don't think this surprises anyone.

Edit for this:

Being white does not cause violence and mass shootings. Being black or Arab or Hispanic does not cause violence and mass shootings. There are cultural and societal forces at play. However, maybe being male may cause violence and mass shootings because that is the only consistent data point we see. However, cultural and societal forces are still much stronger than sex IMHO.

Soros is like some liberal Keyser Söze or something, right?

Yeah, I buy that it is far more a male thing than a white male thing.

 

[SNU0821]

I agree with this.

Citizens United is one of the most destructive court decisions in our nation's history. It is tangetially related to gun violence. If you hate George Soros you should hate citizen's united.

As far as the white male point. According to most of what I can find each race commits "mass shootings" at rates very similar to their proportion of population. However, white males commit drastically higher numbers of "random mass shootings" like the school shootings, Vegas, etc. Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American are more likely to be gang or relationship (not romantic) related. This particular distinction does lead to the conclusion that it is a mostly white male issue. It is overwhelmingly a male issue, however with numbers upwards of 98% male. I don't think this surprises anyone.

Edit for this:

Being white does not cause violence and mass shootings. Being black or Arab or Hispanic does not cause violence and mass shootings. There are cultural and societal forces at play. However, maybe being male may cause violence and mass shootings because that is the only consistent data point we see. However, cultural and societal forces are still much stronger than sex IMHO.

Totally agree it’s a male thing. I don’t think race has anything to do with it, as you pointed out.

 

[Dattier]

This particular distinction does lead to the conclusion that it is a mostly white male issue. It is overwhelmingly a male issue, however with numbers upwards of 98% male. I don't think this surprises anyone.

Totally agree it’s a male thing. I don’t think race has anything to do with it, as you pointed out.

Huh.

 

[bkingUK]

I liken gun control from liberals to immigration for conservatives. Both issues need to be addressed. Both issues have sides unwilling to budge. Both issues have one side blaming the other for anything associated with their issue.

That's a fair comparison. The idea of a wall stopping immigrating makes about much sense as limitations on guns stopping mass shootings. Saying these things would take place even out these laws is not just a talking point, it's a reality. But no one seems to want to deal with the reality.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Nobody said he was.

Who has committed more of these shootings here than anyone else if not white males? And many have in common beliefs that the world is theirs by birthright.

Would you be so quick to generalize black parents for raising their kids wrong because black male (sons) commit a disproportionate number of homicides?

 

[Da_Bull]

Overturn Citizens United.
Fund healthcare.
Require more extensive background checks.
Require training and licensure.
Require a mental health screen ahead of a first purchase.
Have longer waiting periods.
Register and do background checks and waiting periods for every gun sale.
Track ammo sales.
Ban ownership of guns for any person convicted of a violent crime.
Include confiscation of guns they already have for violence convictions.
Require additional levels of certification to purchase certain specific guns.
Require 1-2 yearly mental check-ups for continued ownership of certain specific guns.
Have buyback programs for certain specific guns.
Have surprise inspections in special cases.
Don't join the NRA.
Don't vote for politicians who are tone deaf on reasonable gun control.
Don't expose your kids to violent video games.
Don't raise your white sons to believe in the supremacy of white male culture.

You really had to throw that last one in there? All the ones leading up to it were reasonable. And you wonder why people target you. If someone put "Don't raise your black sons to murder people" how the hell would you react?

 

[RockChalkRally]

Seems like common sense. The alcohol abuser one is a little sketchy. I do my best shooting when I am drunk.

I agree with this. It's a good place to start.

 

[Dattier]

You really had to throw that last one in there? All the ones leading up to it were reasonable. And you wonder why people target you. If someone put "Don't raise your black sons to murder people" how the hell would you react?

Really?! ALL of them up until that point?! All 17 that preceded it?! Did you clear that w/ snu first?

I've explained that last one twice and I'll ask you, as well:
Do you deny that most mass shootings have been carried out by angry white men?
Would you teach your own son, for example, that they are not entitled to women based on his interest alone?

 

[SNU0821]

Really?! ALL of them up until that point?! All 17 that preceded it?! Did you clear that w/ snu first?

I've explained that last one twice and I'll ask you, as well:
Do you deny that many mass shootings have been carried out by angry white men?
Would you teach your own son, for example, that they are not entitled to women based on his interest alone?

Lol. Getting called out and dodging questions. Pretty par for the course for you Datt.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Don't raise your white sons to believe in the supremacy of white male culture.

Just wow. I cannot fathom the outcry if someone said, "Homicides would go waaaaay down IF black parents quit rasing their kids to murder".

What a racist statement. , really. Your statement has nothing to do with this schoo shooting, or any others. It's not like black students were targeted. Or Asian. Or Hispanic. He shot whoever came in sight. He wasn't prejiduce. Just evil.

My gawd what an awful and uneducated respsone. Wow. If there ever was a question if you were or were not racist----man did that statement ever answer the question.

Again----Wow.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Really?! ALL of them up until that point?! All 17 that preceded it?! Did you clear that w/ snu first?

I've explained that last one twice and I'll ask you, as well:
Do you deny that most mass shootings have been carried out by angry white men?
Would you teach your own son, for example, that they are not entitled to women based on his interest alone?

Sure they are. And? It's not like they are targeting races or sex. They are just shooting whoever and whatever. The motives are usually due to mental issues, mad at the government, abused as a child, etc, etc... But not onnce has any school shooting been atributed to racism.

Until now.

 

[Dattier]

Lol. Getting called out and dodging questions. Pretty par for the course for you Datt.

I've already addressed most of it...

If someone put "Don't raise your black sons to murder people" how the hell would you react?

Oh, I missed this one.

Well, number 1, I'm a white cis male, and what I said about people who are also white males isn't an insult to white people at all. I wouldn't say it about a race other than my own under most circumstances b/c I don't like white supremacy and it's therefore not my place to advise people on an aspect of their identity and experience that I don't share.

Number 2, I'd roll my eyes at a black man saying it b/c it's kind of a crotchety-old-man, respectability politics kind of thing to say, but I wouldn't be scandalized or really bothered by it.

Number 3, it's not as simple as substituting one color for another b/c those colors have been the reason for many of the inequities that exist today. Saying that about black people would essentially ignore all of that.

 

[Dattier]

Sure they are. And? It's not like they are targeting races or sex. They are just shooting whoever and whatever. The motives are usually due to mental issues, mad at the government, abused as a child, etc, etc... But not onnce has any school shooting been atributed to racism.

Until now.

The disproportionate % of random mass shootings perpetrated by white males makes race a relevant factor to consider in providing mental health services. Just like the disproportionate % of black people in prison makes race a relevant factor to consider in developing preventative measures.

Neither is about racism, and nowhere did I say the motives have been racist.

 

[Da_Bull]

I've already addressed most of it...


Oh, I missed this one.

Well, number 1, I'm a white cis male, and what I said about people who are also white males isn't an insult to white people at all. I wouldn't say it about a race other than my own under most circumstances b/c I don't like white supremacy and it's therefore not my place to advise people on an aspect of their identity and experience that I don't share.

Number 2, I'd roll my eyes at a black man saying it b/c it's kind of a crotchety-old-man, respectability politics kind of thing to say, but I wouldn't be scandalized or really bothered by it.

Number 3, it's not as simple as substituting one color for another b/c those colors have been the reason for many of the inequities that exist today. Saying that about black people would essentially ignore all of that.

How do you know how they raised their kids?

 

[IUfanBorden]

The disproportionate % of random mass shootings perpetrated by white males makes race a relevant factor to consider in providing mental health services. Just like the disproportionate % of black people in prison makes race a relevant factor to consider in developing preventative measures.

Neither is about racism, and nowhere did I say the motives have been racist.

Yeah-----ok. I mean the thing about, "not raising your sons to belive in the white supremacy culture" wasn't a racist statement. Naaaaaah.



Nor did it imply racism as a motive.

 

[Dattier]

lol
Out of the corner of my eye, I mistook borden's avy for @TheDude1 's. I thought I was replying to him and thought, "When did TheDude forget how to read?"
Now it all makes sense.

Yeah-----ok. I mean the thing about, "not raising your sons to belive in the white supremacy culture" wasn't a racist statement. Naaaaaah.



Nor did it imply racism as a motive.

You don't know what I mean by "white supremacist culture." The irony of your calling something from academia you don't understand "uneducated"...

Even by what you think I meant, no outrage over how some of my other 17 suggestions don't apply to every situation? lol No, just the one...

 

[Dattier]

How do you know how they raised their kids?

I don't know. I don't even know what "they" you mean.

 

[SNU0821]

Seems like more people were aware that this kid was a threat/needed help. Still have a hard time dealing with the FBI dropping the ball on this. In an interview, the FBI said that the tip they got should have been sent to the Miami field office where they would have followed up on it. What that means, I don’t know, but at least they would have done something.

 

[Dattier]

Seems like more people were aware that this kid was a threat/needed help. Still have a hard time dealing with the FBI dropping the ball on this. In an interview, the FBI said that the tip they got should have been sent to the Miami field office where they would have followed up on it. What that means, I don’t know, but at least they would have done something.

It's very troubling and there should be an investigation into it, but it should not be an excuse to forget about reforming gun law and improving mental health services.

The tip I've heard about was on January 5th of this year. Comey was long gone by then, but bureaucracies being slow to change, the fault could be traced to something from his watch. That could explain how readily Director Wray was to confess to their screw-up. Then again, it's not like our President hasn't already had numerous embarrassments with poorly vetted or/and unqualified appointees.

 

[TheDude1]

The FBI miss sucks. SUCKS. But in massive organizations involving tens of thousands of employees who are dealing with threats each and every day, there will be misses. It is just how the world works. Sometimes they will be life or death misses. Obviously we should A) figure out who was truly responsible and B) do what we can to ensure it doesn't happen again. I doubt this is a sign of any massive, FBI-wide issue.

 

[theetommyt]

The FBI miss sucks. SUCKS. But in massive organizations involving tens of thousands of employees who are dealing with threats each and every day, there will be misses. It is just how the world works. Sometimes they will be life or death misses. Obviously we should A) figure out who was truly responsible and B) do what we can to ensure it doesn't happen again. I doubt this is a sign of any massive, FBI-wide issue.

Agree, and still not sure what the FBI could have legally done to the kid to prevent this. It seems to me he did nothing illegally until he started shooting.

 

[SNU0821]

Agree, and still not sure what the FBI could have legally done to the kid to prevent this. It seems to me he did nothing illegally until he started shooting.

They arrested a kid in SC for a threat he made after the FL shooting. I’m assuming it would have been something similar.

This one to me seems like just a human error which stinks. But I dont think it’s any widespread systemic issue with the FBI.

 

[theetommyt]

They arrested a kid in SC for a threat he made after the FL shooting. I’m assuming it would have been something similar.

This one to me seems like just a human error which stinks. But I dont think it’s any widespread systemic issue with the FBI.

I might be wrong, but did this latest (sucks to phrase it like that) kid even do that? Serious question because I don't know.

 

[bkingUK]

One question. Other countries have guns. Canada has more per capita than the US.

However, other countries don't have kids shooting up their schools or citizens mass murdering other citizens on any frequency close to the US.

My question is: why does it happen here more?

 

[npreston]

A chilling read...

“Americans are more likely to die from a gunshot than from skin cancer or stomach cancer.“

https://www.google.com/amp/www.theweek.co.uk/amp/91679/us-gun-violence-in-six-chilling-statistics

 

[BStowers023]

Overturn Citizens United.
Fund healthcare.
Require more extensive background checks.
Require training and licensure.
Require a mental health screen ahead of a first purchase.
Have longer waiting periods.
Register and do background checks and waiting periods for every gun sale.
Track ammo sales.
Ban ownership of guns for any person convicted of a violent crime.
Include confiscation of guns they already have for violence convictions.
Require additional levels of certification to purchase certain specific guns.
Require 1-2 yearly mental check-ups for continued ownership of certain specific guns.
Have buyback programs for certain specific guns.
Have surprise inspections in special cases.
Don't join the NRA.
Don't vote for politicians who are tone deaf on reasonable gun control.
Don't expose your kids to violent video games.
Don't raise your white sons to believe in the supremacy of white male culture.

This sounds like a police state. No thanks.

This is all just conversation starter.

1. At the minimum make purchasing assault style weapons a long, thorough process. You want an AR-15? Be dedicated to it over months including training and tests, at minimum as difficult of a process as obtaining a driver's license.
2. Any gun purchase, person to person, store, show, etc. must include a background check.
3. If you are convicted of any violent or destructive crime, no guns. Domestic violence, no guns. Battery, no guns. On and on. Maybe even some temporary suspensions of gun ownership similar to getting a DUI for certain offenses. Get a DUI, no driving for 6months to a year. Something similar where you have to turn in your guns for 6 months to a year.

Responsible gun owners only suffer in the short term (longer waiting periods, having to take a course and pass a test) but not in the long run. Added to that, as a whole they would be more educated. Gun owners as a group would also be more respected and trusted in this country by those who do not own guns by starting to eliminate people who become problems from having legal access. Guns are a right but like others rights in this country they can be taken away if you f*%# up.

I've addressed guns, now "mental health"
Any mental health related issue is covered by a single payer government mental health care plan. It's there if anyone needs it. The people who can't afford it are usually the most susceptible to it turning into a negative consequence for themselves and others. Not having access also can lead to not being able to afford it down the road when the problem turns to a crisis.

Nothing will ever completely prevent violence and gun violence, but we can greatly reduce the likelihood.

A lot more people will die in this country under a single payer system due to extremely long waiting periods for doctors visits/checkups.

 

[Dattier]

This sounds like a police state.

How so? Your response sounds more like an attempt to dismiss everything w/o considering it by using alarmist terminology to label it.

A lot more people will die in this country under a single payer system due to extremely long waiting periods for doctors visits/checkups.

Long waits are primarily for specialists who treat non-emergency ailments. There is an emphasis on preventative care that keeps people healthier in the first place.

 

[BStowers023]

How so? Your response sounds more like an attempt to dismiss everything w/o considering it by using alarmist terminology to label it.

Kinda the purpose having rights is that the Government doesn't control it. The more control you give the Government the more it goes from a right to a privilege and a privilege can be taken.

 

[theetommyt]

Kinda the purpose having rights is that the Government doesn't control it. The more control you give the Government the more it goes from a right to a privilege and a privilege can be taken.

Can I assume you are for legalizing all drugs then? Gay marriage? Gender spectrums?

 

[BStowers023]

Can I assume you are for all legalizing all drugs then? Gay marriage? Gender spectrums?

Great assumption, yes.

 

[theetommyt]

Great assumption, yes.

I don't agree with you, but I can at least logically understand your argument.

 

[BStowers023]

I don't agree with you, but I can at least logically understand your argument.

I'm all about the freedom, man.

 

[Dattier]

I'm all about the freedom, man.

There are natural consequences for how we use those freedoms, and contexts for those freedoms. Where personal freedoms run the risk of interfering w/ others' rights, the gray area has to be navigated. There are lots of laws mitigating the bumper sticker oversimplification of various rights. Many have withstood Constitutional challenges.

 

[SNU0821]

There are natural consequences for how we use those freedoms, and contexts for those freedoms. Where personal freedoms run the risk of interfering w/ others' rights, the gray area has to be navigated. There are lots of laws mitigating the bumper sticker oversimplification of various rights. Many have withstood Constitutional challenges.

Yawn...

 

[Dattier]

Yawn...

Don't complain that your nice conversation was rustled if you're going to respond like a troll.

 

[BStowers023]

There are natural consequences for how we use those freedoms, and contexts for those freedoms. Where personal freedoms run the risk of interfering w/ others' rights, the gray area has to be navigated. There are lots of laws mitigating the bumper sticker oversimplification of various rights. Many have withstood Constitutional challenges.

I'm all about the freedom until you take someone else's away, then that person shall be dealt with. I am against the Government telling me what I can and cannot possess or do/put in my body. I don't think you understand that the longer you write the law books the less freedoms you have. The Governments job is easy, they've just made it more difficult over time.