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Josh Pastner

Cremins had an incredible run. Hammonds, Price, Best, Harpring, Marbury, Salley, Anderson, Scott...Ferrell.

A lot of those guys came in day 1 producing big time #'s.

In today's game arguably over half of those guys would have been gone after a max of one season.
 
Right now Duke/UNC/UVA are at high level 1 seed product threat "some years" with FSU coming on strong. Traditional powers Syracuse and UofL have taken a step back from their standard but are still tough programs. The "middle" NC St/Va Tech/Clemson are competitive. ND has backed up but they were T20ish for a stretch prior to this... you have a few bottom feeders stable there it's just a lot to navigate through. The # of HOF coaches was pretty high a couple years ago.

4 of the last.7 champs are currently in the ACC with none of the 4 being the same program - that's pretty insane. The talent may be down a touch now and then but the league is a monster and for a low tier team to leapfrog these obstacles and sustain something given today's free agency and OAD would be pretty incredible.
 
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SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Not even worth the argument because of what Buzz Williams did at VA Tech

Cannot make an excuse that the ACC is too tough for a program to reach the top today .
If you want to believe the ACC is as rough as it ever has been because Florida State won the conference

That is on you.

But Bobby Cremins created GA Tech in a tough conference.
Even NC Stats had 7 future NBA players in 1986-1987.
GA Tech had 5 that year because of Cremins.

Then Gary Williams did it a little bit later at Maryland
Wasn't because the ACC lacked depth...
Click to expand...

What are you even responding to? Use the reply function please.

Several in here, including me, specifically said a good coach could bring GT up and that look at what Tony Bennett and Leonard Hamilton have done at FSU as proof that the right coach can elevate a team in the ACC.
 
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UVA is the perfect example, keep in mind it took 5 years for Bennett to "get it going" then an additional few years to sustain it and reach the mountain top - and his party started well before this revolving door free agency.

I'd also say mixing UVA into part of a big 3 makes it tougher for another program to do the same because instead of 2 big dawgs there are now 3... in addition to FSU/UofL/SU... this is a tough logjam to become part of.
 
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Marbury was the last great recruit for Cremins. He still had a few decent ones in his final years, like Alvin Jones and Tony Akins. Overall, I'd say his recruiting took a dip his final four years or so, which ultimately led to his departure. Bosh and Jarret Jack were a part of Hewitt's 02 Class. The year before, they got Muhammad and Elder, which were key pieces to the '04 team. With the right coach, GT should be a winning program. Way too much talent in the area. In the past 24 seasons, GT has only had two winning seasons in league play. That just can't happen. At least they weren't as dismal as Rutgers, I guess. Hard to believe that a New Jersey school could go almost 30 years since their last tournament game.
 
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Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
UVA is the perfect example, keep in mind it took 5 years for Bennett to "get it going" then an additional few years to sustain it and reach the mountain top - and his party started well before this revolving door free agency.

I'd also say mixing UVA into part of a big 3 makes it tougher for another program to do the same because instead of 2 big dawgs there are now 3... in addition to FSU/UofL/SU... this is a tough logjam to become part of.
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of this.

But until Boeheim leaves, I’m not sure Cuse is in that same tier. They just don’t seem to be able to get recruits lately. I don’t know what’s going on up there, but when was the last time they were a 4 seed or better in the Dance?
 
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GE Nole said:
I agree with a lot of this.

But until Boeheim leaves, I’m not sure Cuse is in that same tier. They just don’t seem to be able to get recruits lately. I don’t know what’s going on up there, but when was the last time they were a 4 seed or better in the Dance?
Click to expand...

Tough call, they reached the Final Four in 2013 and 2016, not that long ago. S16 in 2018 where they took out Sparty in 2nd round they weren't a good seed that year though, true. They made 8 of 10 NCAA tournaments last decade so I'm leaving them as a respectable threat but I do see some concerns on their direction. They also run that damn zone that 80% of their opponents can't %@$%E 'n figure out...
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Tough call, they reached the Final Four in 2013 and 2016, not that long ago. S16 in 2018 where they took out Sparty in 2nd round they weren't a good seed that year though, true. They made 8 of 10 NCAA tournaments last decade so I'm leaving them as a respectable threat but I do see some concerns on their direction. They also run that damn zone that 80% of their opponents can't %@$%E 'n figure out...
Click to expand...

Yes, the zone can be tricky for teams not used to it. And I know they had a bit of a fluky run to the Final Four in 2016. But lots of programs have random fluky runs. Look at South Carolina a couple years ago.

I’m talking about being a league title contender. Has Syracuse even finished in the top 5 other than their first year in the ACC?
 
GE Nole said:
Yes, the zone can be tricky for teams not used to it. And I know they had a bit of a fluky run to the Final Four in 2016. But lots of programs have random fluky runs. Look at South Carolina a couple years ago.

I’m talking about being a league title contender. Has Syracuse even finished in the top 5 other than their first year in the ACC?
Click to expand...

That's true, Cuse did go through the 1 seed in the E8 to get to the final weekend though. When a program like this has as much history of advancing in the NCAAs as they do, I'm not sure it can be considered fluky - they just have a history of getting hot. They had an E8 last decade and a few Sweet16s to go with the Final 4s.

That said I do realize a lot of people could put more value in post season than they should, but it sure seems like coaches are hired and fired based on post season results.

I don't think they've broken through in the ACC, I think you're going to know more about those #'s than I am for sure. I do think they face logistic challenges that some other teams in the league don't face. I know that's a bit of a reach for sure, no doubt I haven't seen a Carmelo Anthony or Derrick Coleman type of player there in a while. I still hold a ton of respect for them though.
 
GE Nole said:
I agree with a lot of this.

But until Boeheim leaves, I’m not sure Cuse is in that same tier. They just don’t seem to be able to get recruits lately. I don’t know what’s going on up there, but when was the last time they were a 4 seed or better in the Dance?
Click to expand...

I suspect no big time recruits with fast nba aspirations wants to take the time practicing playing zone during college when they will likely never play it again.

I feel like this hurt Pitinos recruiting with big time recruits at Louisville his last few years as well.

Obv both still landed a few studs along the way despite the fact, but if I was a recruit I’d def consider it. Esp boeheim who just flat out refuses to get out of the zone even if the other team is red hot or has multiple shooters from deep ala Virginia the last few years.
 
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GE Nole said:
I agree with a lot of this.

But until Boeheim leaves, I’m not sure Cuse is in that same tier. They just don’t seem to be able to get recruits lately. I don’t know what’s going on up there, but when was the last time they were a 4 seed or better in the Dance?
Click to expand...

Syracuse has a recent Final 4 run.
Something Hamilton still hasn't accomplished yet.

Sometimes you shouldn't be so quick to judge other programs...
Especially when they have accomplished more than your own
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Cremins had an incredible run. Hammonds, Price, Best, Harpring, Marbury, Salley, Anderson, Scott...Ferrell.

A lot of those guys came in day 1 producing big time #'s.

In today's game arguably over half of those guys would have been gone after a max of one season.
Click to expand...

The amount of NBA talent that came out of his program correlates with the success.

I guess some people want to act like the ACC was easier in the 1980s but this was proven incorrect

For GA Tech to have the success the same thing has to happen.
But..
One of GA Tech's best players recently was someone who couldn't see the floor at Texas. James Banks. He transferred out. Ended up being their best player

Won't ever work in the ACC if they want to compete at a high level.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Syracuse has a recent Final 4 run.
Something Hamilton still hasn't accomplished yet.

Sometimes you shouldn't be so quick to judge other programs...
Especially when they have accomplished more than your own
Click to expand...

It’s like you don’t read all the messages or something. I directly referred to Cuse’s recent run to the Final Four as a double digit seed.

Random Final Four runs aren’t what we’ve been talking about here. We are talking about contending for league titles. This whole conversation has been about taking a team at the bottom of the league and moving up through the depth and contending for a league title consistently at the top.

Syracuse hasn’t done that in the ACC since their first season. And moreover, the comment was about looking at their prospects currently and moving forward. They just don’t have the recruits coming in like they used to.
 
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GE Nole said:
It’s like you don’t read all the messages or something. I directly referred to Cuse’s recent run to the Final Four as a double digit seed.

Random Final Four runs aren’t what we’ve been talking about here. We are talking about contending for league titles. This whole conversation has been about taking a team at the bottom of the league and moving up through the depth and contending for a league title consistently at the top.

Syracuse hasn’t done that in the ACC since their first season. And moreover, the comment was about looking at their prospects currently and moving forward. They just don’t have the recruits coming in like they used to.
Click to expand...

Nothing random about winning in the NCAA Tournament
Once you realize that your opinion changes

Every Tournament game teams and players are giving full effort
You don't see it at that level during the season
 
Smh the NCAA tourney is soooooooo random. It’s literally the most exciting part of the sport.
 
Villian07 said:
Smh the NCAA tourney is soooooooo random. It’s literally the most exciting part of the sport.
Click to expand...

Who wins and losses isn't random

It is coaching....

There is a general belief by some on here that regular season basketball matters just as much as NCAA Tournament Basketball.
Backwards thinking. Some people are trying to convince themselves that their team's regular season accomplishments matter. But in reality. If you don't play well in the NCAA Tournament...Doesn't matter if you went 32-0 during the season
 
Boeheim is still a fox..

Syracuse is still a team you see in your bracket regardless of seed that you wonder about
Because you know that knocking out Syracuse isn't an easy thing.


Anyone who knows basketball respects the hell out of their basketball program.

End of discussion about Syracuse from me.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Who wins and losses isn't random

It is coaching....

There is a general belief by some on here that regular season basketball matters just as much as NCAA Tournament Basketball.
Backwards thinking. Some people are trying to convince themselves that their team's regular season accomplishments matter. But in reality. If you don't play well in the NCAA Tournament...Doesn't matter if you went 32-0 during the season
Click to expand...

I agree but there are examples of "one off" randomness results. Kevin Ollie, Mike Davis, Paul Hewitt... guys winning s title or reaching final game then vanishing.

But "programs" consistently making NCAA runs aren't random, a la Syracuse.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Who wins and losses isn't random

It is coaching....

There is a general belief by some on here that regular season basketball matters just as much as NCAA Tournament Basketball.
Backwards thinking. Some people are trying to convince themselves that their team's regular season accomplishments matter. But in reality. If you don't play well in the NCAA Tournament...Doesn't matter if you went 32-0 during the season
Click to expand...
You just dismissed everything Texas ever.
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
I agree but there are examples of "one off" randomness results. Kevin Ollie, Mike Davis, Paul Hewitt... guys winning s title or reaching final game then vanishing.

But "programs" consistently making NCAA runs aren't random, a la Syracuse.
Click to expand...

Ollie did inherit a lot from Calhoun
Davis from Knight

Paul Hewitt....
He recruited well.
Don't remember who was all on that team
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Ollie did inherit a lot from Calhoun
Davis from Knight

Paul Hewitt....
He recruited well.
Don't remember who was all on that team
Click to expand...

Yeah. None of that doesn't change the fact/point. They each had 1 random run, examples randomness does happen. They each had good rosters after those random runs.
 
Ipartiedwithhopgood said:
Yeah. None of that doesn't change the fact/point. They each had 1 random run, examples randomness does happen. They each had good rosters after those random runs.
Click to expand...

But the randomness is taken away because they inherited a program from a championship caliber coach.

Both happened in Year 2...Both happended unexpectedly.


Nothing is random. Everything can be explained. You never learn if you think it was pure happenstance
 
TX had a run of great OAD talent that allowed them to showcase but not mold a team. Just my simplified outside looking in take.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
Who wins and losses isn't random

It is coaching....

There is a general belief by some on here that regular season basketball matters just as much as NCAA Tournament Basketball.
Backwards thinking. Some people are trying to convince themselves that their team's regular season accomplishments matter. But in reality. If you don't play well in the NCAA Tournament...Doesn't matter if you went 32-0 during the season
Click to expand...

I agree with your second paragraph. First not so much. If that was the case we’d never see Cinderella runs like Loyola, gmu, vcu etc. don’t tell me shaka coached his way to a final four at vcu but can’t coach Texas to the same. That it was all coaching that got Loyola to the FF, when the entire bracket fell apart. Lastly if it was all about coaching how in the world did Bruce Weber beat Calipari in a tourney game. I just don’t agree. I think it obv plays a factor but so does luck and randomness.

Go look at the entire quadrant of the bracket a few years back when umbc beat uva. And kstate played Loyola in the EE and tell me again there’s no randomness to it.
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
But the randomness is taken away because they inherited a program from a championship caliber coach.

Both happened in Year 2...Both happended unexpectedly.


Nothing is random. Everything can be explained. You never learn if you think it was pure happenstance
Click to expand...

Random results for those coaches that never happened again for them.
 
Villian07 said:
I agree with your second paragraph. First not so much. If that was the case we’d never see Cinderella runs like Loyola, gmu, vcu etc. don’t tell me shaka coached his way to a final four at vcu but can’t coach Texas to the same. That it was all coaching that got Loyola to the FF, when the entire bracket fell apart. Lastly if it was all about coaching how in the world did Bruce Weber beat Calipari in a tourney game. I just don’t agree. I think it obv plays a factor but so does luck and randomness.

Go look at the entire quadrant of the bracket a few years back when umbc beat uva. And kstate played Loyola in the EE and tell me again there’s no randomness to it.
Click to expand...

A lot of info in there...

Thinking you are looking at the names of the schools instead of rosters.

All about having the players ...

Don't know why everyone shits on Bruce Weber.

Who would you rather have

Josh Pastner
Bruce Weber
 
Hell look at Kansas and self. Dude won a title, can obv coach. But still has a number of tourney losses to mid majors as a high seed. Random
 
SheriffBufordTJustice said:
A lot of info in there...

Thinking you are looking at the names of the schools instead of rosters.

All about having the players ...

Don't know why everyone shits on Bruce Weber.

Who would you rather have

Josh Pastner
Bruce Weber
Click to expand...

Josh Pastner is a very very low bar. Bruce is not an elite coach, if he was he wouldn’t have taken a career step backwards from Illinois to Kstate. I was comparing him to Cal not Pastner. In that game Uk had the better coach and the better players, yet randomly they didn’t win the game.

One post u say it’s about the coaching, now you say it’s about having the players. Obv it’s both, but to act like random things don’t happen in the NCAA tourney is crazy. If that were the case it would be all 1 seeds in every final four.
 
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