Gonzaga/Baylor

[duckboy33]

Didn't a major conference already offer to bring in Gonzaga, but Gonzaga refused? I thought I remember reading that here in the last couple years.

MWC did but there's serious questions about whether Gonzaga would even want to move to a P6 conference. They seem happy with their current situation. They've had opportunities to play in a bigger arena and they've turned it down. Sometimes being the big fish in the little pond is actually pretty nice.

 

[Original_Irish]

MWC did but there's serious questions about whether Gonzaga would even want to move to a P6 conference. They seem happy with their current situation. They've had opportunities to play in a bigger arena and they've turned it down. Sometimes being the big fish in the little pond is actually pretty nice.

Maybe it would be different if the PAC was better. Because right now Gonzaga is getting 5pm ESPN games on Saturday nights against Pepperdine. Right now Gonzaga is not hurting with exposure even with conference games because espn values them higher than most PAC 12 games.

 

[Villian07]

I'm not saying they didn't earn it. Its just different than a regular title. You avoided certain games because they were cancelled, you caught a team one night without its best player, or players. Are you really going to tell me a team deserves the title if they play in the tournament and play decimated rosters? Stop.

I said if the tourney resembles every other tourney, ie no cancellations or teams playing at less than full strength.

 

[duckboy33]

Maybe it would be different if the PAC was better. Because right now Gonzaga is getting 5pm ESPN games on Saturday nights against Pepperdine. Right now Gonzaga is not hurting with exposure even with conference games because espn values them higher than most PAC 12 games.

It’s one thing for ESPN to value it but how much is Gonzaga seeing in comparison to what they would see if they were in a major conference. My guess is they are seeing significantly less but they can make up for it by scheduling a lot of big OOC games at neutral sites.

Point remains, they would see a lot more money if they joined a P6 conference, presumably the PAC 12. But there's some risk associated with that move and Gonzaga doesn't seem to think the risk is worth it. And they are probably right. Life is pretty good for the Zags right now.

 

[Villian07]

Nish! I have never defended Kentucky this season. In fact I’ve been their biggest critic, theirs and Cals. My argument actually hurts UK even more than yours does. In a year like this, we should be flourishing.

As far as Zags and Baylor, not sure yet. They pass the eye test, have played a solid number of games I guess. Who knows how many teams they’ve each played where the other team had a player or players out. Gonzaga hasn’t played anyone with a pulse recently.

The champion will be deserving, but to compare them to past champions who have had to play full schedules, teams that were not having players in and out on a nightly basis, and had to go on rigorous road trips to packed arenas. It’s just different. That has been my argument the whole time.

Champions are made in the NCAA tourney, though not the regular season. If the tourney goes off without a hitch, I don’t see much of a difference in winning it this year than any other, except no fans in the stands, but not sure how that benefits one team over their opponent.

Onviously less regular season games would make for an easier regular season, but for whoever wins 6 straight in March, assuming their opponents are at full strength, I don’t see how it would be any easier than a normal year.

 

[JimboBBN]

Champions are made in the NCAA tourney, though not the regular season. If the tourney goes off without a hitch, I don’t see much of a difference in winning it this year than any other, except no fans in the stands, but not sure how that benefits one team over their opponent.

Onviously less regular season games would make for an easier regular season, but for whoever wins 6 straight in March, assuming their opponents are at full strength, I don’t see how it would be any easier than a normal year.

Not traveling more than a few miles opposed to across the country would definitely be easier. Assuming everyone is full strength is also taking a big leap considering it’s been an issue the entire season.

 

[Villian07]

Just shows how watered down the year is. How long its been since the teams that are normally at the top have been this bad. I mean, Iowa is a top 5 team. When does that ever happen?

So if covid wasn’t a thing, never happened, would UK/Kansas/UNC/Duke all be top ten contenders this year with the same exact rosters?

I don’t see the correlation with all the blue bloods sucking and covid. I can actually see the argument for UK over any of them, as y’all replaced your entire roster essentially, and a normal year with more offseason practice or perhaps an overseas trip maybe the chemistry would have developed better. But on the other hand 15 games in and UK is 5-10 so I’m not sure it was ever gonna “click” with this group or not.

Im more inclined to believe all the bluebloods would be about the same as they are now, covid or not. I can’t explain why all four are down the same year, but they are, and I can’t hardly blame covid when every other team has to deal with it too. Esp when KU and UNC aren’t exactly super young.

 

[Villian07]

Not traveling more than a few miles opposed to across the country would definitely be easier. Assuming everyone is full strength is also taking a big leap considering it’s been an issue the entire season.

Your right there, that’s a huge leap. But so is saying that players are missing literally every game. Yes a lot of players have missed games across the nation, but there’s been plenty played at full strength as well. I can’t recall anyone being out for Kansas, or Iowa, or anyone Gonzaga beat early in the season. Or Baylors opponents either for that matter. We’ve played one game missing a player due to covid, and had games canceled/postponed. Now we are playing 3 games this week, mon-wed-sat. I’m not so sure “pauses” within the program, or having games postponed makes things easier.

like dude said above, if someone wins by beating a bunch of under manned teams that are ravaged by covid, then yes of course it will deserve an asterisk. But if a team wins 6 straight against teams at full strength in my eyes they will be just as deserving as any other champ.

No travel for the tourney would make things easier, I’ll give you that. But also kind of evens the playing field of everyone plays in the same location. It’s not exactly equal most years when duke and unc play their first round games in Greensboro every year much like UK usually plays in Louisville a round or two. If anything it hurts the highest seeds the most, they are the ones who usually get to stay close to home. Not always though so this is a counter point I can agree with from your side of the argument.

 

[JimboBBN]

So if covid wasn’t a thing, never happened, would UK/Kansas/UNC/Duke all be top ten contenders this year with the same exact rosters?

I don’t see the correlation with all the blue bloods sucking and covid. I can actually see the argument for UK over any of them, as y’all replaced your entire roster essentially, and a normal year with more offseason practice or perhaps an overseas trip maybe the chemistry would have developed better. But on the other hand 15 games in and UK is 5-10 so I’m not sure it was ever gonna “click” with this group or not.

Im more inclined to believe all the bluebloods would be about the same as they are now, covid or not. I can’t explain why all four are down the same year, but they are, and I can’t hardly blame covid when every other team has to deal with it too. Esp when KU and UNC aren’t exactly super young.

I can't speak for the other ones but Kentucky would probably be a little better. Probably still miss the tournament, though. Then again, we would be playing a full schedule with no teams missing players, so we might be worse.

My argument is with teams having players in and out as much as they have, not having hostile home crowds, and awkward scheduling, the teams that normally do very well should be doing that or even better. I think its pretty common sense that the teams I've listed get the best efforts/opposing crowds everywhere they go.

 

[JimboBBN]

Your right there, that’s a huge leap. But so is saying that players are missing literally every game. Yes a lot of players have missed games across the nation, but there’s been plenty played at full strength as well. I can’t recall anyone being out for Kansas, or Iowa, or anyone Gonzaga beat early in the season. Or Baylors opponents either for that matter. We’ve played one game missing a player due to covid, and had games canceled/postponed. Now we are playing 3 games this week, mon-wed-sat. I’m not so sure “pauses” within the program, or having games postponed makes things easier.

like dude said above, if someone wins by beating a bunch of under manned teams that are ravaged by covid, then yes of course it will deserve an asterisk. But if a team wins 6 straight against teams at full strength in my eyes they will be just as deserving as any other champ.

No travel for the tourney would make things easier, I’ll give you that. But also kind of evens the playing field of everyone plays in the same location. It’s not exactly equal most years when duke and unc play their first round games in Greensboro every year much like UK usually plays in Louisville a round or two. If anything it hurts the highest seeds the most, they are the ones who usually get to stay close to home. Not always though so this is a counter point I can agree with from your side of the argument.

Its an interesting debate to have, but its just something we will have to wait on and see what happens. Do you have an asterisk for the Lakers winning the title this year? I sure do. Not as much with Alabama because they usually are the best team anyways, but even still, they went up against an Ohio State team in the title game that had half the games and practices that Bama had all year. So it still wasn't normal by any means.

 

[InvestmentBanker]

Baylor would/will crush Gonzaga

 

[dukedevilz]

Zags will get Pacific tomorrow and BYU on Monday. Still hoping to see the Zags play a P6 team like Illinois next week.

 

[bignish]

I can't speak for the other ones but Kentucky would probably be a little better. Probably still miss the tournament, though. Then again, we would be playing a full schedule with no teams missing players, so we might be worse.

My argument is with teams having players in and out as much as they have, not having hostile home crowds, and awkward scheduling, the teams that normally do very well should be doing that or even better. I think its pretty common sense that the teams I've listed get the best efforts/opposing crowds everywhere they go.

Our rosters just suck dude, K and Cal are having a hard time predicting who goes pro and who stays. Even guys who won't get drafted now leave instead of staying to improve their draft stock and help Duke or UK win a title.

You have to recruit a new team each year and we have no proven freshman studs on our roster. Boston, Clarke and Jalen Johnson are some of the worst top 10 recruits I've seen. It would be different if one of these guys turned out to be as good as Sharife Cooper has been for Auburn or Cade Cunningham for OKST. If you're going to recruit OADs, they better be future NBA All-Star level players.

A team like Baylor recruited a bunch of top 100 recruits who stuck around to become great basketball players who are tough, experienced and understand the fundamentals after 3-4 years of college reps and strength & conditioning.

 

[RR30]

Has nothing to do with my point. No one will view this year's champion the same as others. You're lying if you say you do.

I will. If anything winning a title this year is harder than other years. There is no asterisk, none*

*Unless a rival school wins than fvck em

 

[JimboBBN]

I will. If anything winning a title this year is harder than other years. There is no asterisk, none*

*Unless a rival school wins than fvck em

I understand where the opinion comes from but I do not agree.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

I understand where the opinion comes from but I do not agree.

I see both sides. Pretty hard not to IMO.

Clearly this year is a different sports year than any other. Across the board.

Should they all deserve asterisks. I think no. Ppl will remember 2020 w/o a symbol reminding them. However, if a team wins this tournament due to forfeiture or without winning 6 games. Then I can definitely see the argument for one.

Let's say a team like Baylor/Gonzaga/etc wins due to their toughest competition had to forfeit a game due to contact tracing. Then we'll never know who the best team was in the tournament.

Let's say a 16 seed wins the Championship w/o having to play much of anyone. No asterisk?

If it's a clean tournament, then I'd say no asterisk.

 

[Villian07]

Its an interesting debate to have, but its just something we will have to wait on and see what happens. Do you have an asterisk for the Lakers winning the title this year? I sure do. Not as much with Alabama because they usually are the best team anyways, but even still, they went up against an Ohio State team in the title game that had half the games and practices that Bama had all year. So it still wasn't normal by any means.

so had Clemson best osu then bama best Clemson instead, who played a schedule full of trash acc teams, the bamas title is totally legit?

And usually the best team anyways should never apply, but I understand what you mean.

 

[JimboBBN]

so had Clemson best osu then bama best Clemson instead, who played a schedule full of trash acc teams, the bamas title is totally legit?

And usually the best team anyways should never apply, but I understand what you mean.

In this case its more legit than the Lakers or maybe even CBB's winner. We can keep playing the scenario game, but I've maintained the same argument and stance in the whole thread. Different year, different challenges, and titles won will not be viewed the same by a lot of people.

 

[Villian07]

I see both sides. Pretty hard not to IMO.

Clearly this year is a different sports year than any other. Across the board.

Should they all deserve asterisks. I think no. Ppl will remember 2020 w/o a symbol reminding them. However, if a team wins this tournament due to forfeiture or without winning 6 games. Then I can definitely see the argument for one.

Let's say a team like Baylor/Gonzaga/etc wins due to their toughest competition had to forfeit a game due to contact tracing. Then we'll never know who the best team was in the tournament.

Let's say a 16 seed wins the Championship w/o having to play much of anyone. No asterisk?

If it's a clean tournament, then I'd say no asterisk.

good post. A lot still to be determined. I completely agree that come March if covid starts making teams play at less that full strength or their opponents are all decimated, then of course it won’t be the same.

My original post was just on the hypothetical premise that the plan for March madness works, wanted to gauge the room as far asopinions on the legitimacy of the eventual champ.

And for Jimbo, I’ve honestly struggled all morning contemplating the lakers championship. I think I’m so biased against the Lakers and against lebron that I don’t want to give them credit. But they had the best record sans Milwaukee iirc so they lost more home playoff games than anyone. Which was obv the main difference as far as last years playoffs. But again every team had the same external challenges so it’s hard to knock the Lakers for winning the games that they played.

idk I lean one way but I see it both ways, which was why I made the OP.

 

[Villian07]

In this case its more legit than the Lakers or maybe even CBB's winner. We can keep playing the scenario game, but I've maintained the same argument and stance in the whole thread. Different year, different challenges, and titles won will not be viewed the same by a lot of people.

I don’t see how that would make it more legit. Clemson plays in the ACC and as a fan of a member of the ACC I will readily tell you the conference is hot garbage in football. So had Clemson only played 6 or beat all 14 ACC teams doesn’t really matter to me.

But at the same time I agree that OSU even being there was a joke as well.

But I’m certainly not gonna blane or knock bama because Clemson got beat by OSU. By saying it would have been more legit had they played Clemson is basically Discrediting bama, just bc Clemson got their ass whipped by an OSU team who didn’t play a full schedule

Alabama lined up and whipped the ass of every opponent that stepped on the field with them. Not sure what affect Covid had in that at

 

[Villian07]

This year is different, needless to say, but that doesn’t mean the teams that won the games somehow did less to earn it than teams in years past. Or had any kind of advantage, like everyone didn’t deal with the same challenges. Even if you take into account less games, you also have to take into account the mental toll of all the covid protocols which no past team ever had to deal with. I couldn’t imaging being in college and not partying or not chasing tail bc you could contact trace back to someone with covid, esp after a big win. I’m suprised we haven’t seen opt outs like in football. I know football is obv more dangerous, but still.

But again, it is different so I can see it both way, and don’t think anyone’s opinion is necessarily wrong in this discussion, it is an opinion based discussion, not one about facts. I dont, however, see the correlation in the blue bloods sucking and covid Beyond coincidence.

Maybe if UNC and KU were as freshmen heavy as UK and even duke to an extent, maybe, yea I could buy in.

I do agree that UK has the best argument for being a better team with a “normal” off season, but I can’t really quantify that into wins and losses when every program had the same weird off season.

 

[FaithPlusOne]

This year is different, needless to say, but that doesn’t mean the teams that won the games somehow did less to earn it than teams in years past. Or had any kind of advantage, like everyone didn’t deal with the same challenges. Even if you take into account less games, you also have to take into account the mental toll of all the covid protocols which no past team ever had to deal with. I couldn’t imaging being in college and not partying or not chasing tail bc you could contact trace back to someone with covid, esp after a big win. I’m suprised we haven’t seen opt outs like in football. I know football is obv more dangerous, but still.

But again, it is different so I can see it both way, and don’t think anyone’s opinion is necessarily wrong in this discussion, it is an opinion based discussion, not one about facts. I dont, however, see the correlation in the blue bloods sucking and covid Beyond coincidence.

Maybe if UNC and KU were as freshmen heavy as UK and even duke to an extent, maybe, yea I could buy in.

I do agree that UK has the best argument for being a better team with a “normal” off season, but I can’t really quantify that into wins and losses when every program had the same weird off season.

UNC is young. They have 7 scholarship freshmen (1 played 5 games last year and was injured/redshirted). Their top 2 scorers are a sophomore and senior, but the next 4 are true freshmen.

 

[Villian07]

UNC is young. They have 7 scholarship freshmen (1 played 5 games last year and was injured/redshirted). Their top 2 scorers are a sophomore and senior, but the next 4 are true freshmen.

Touche, tbh I haven’t paid much attention to UNC outside of watching a few of the bigger games, and we haven’t played yet. So Honestly, I can’t even name any unc frosh outside of Love who we recruited and sharpe who caught my eye in an already well stocked front court.

It’s not hardly replacing the entire roster, sans 1 guy who played half the season and 1 who was injured all of last year, but point taken UNC is much younger than I realized.

OT but is leaky black or bacot the soph second leading scorer? Which leaves the question of what is the other one doing to be getting outscored by 4 diff frosh.

 

[Villian07]

Also it’s really not fair to lump KU and UNC together as having total dumpster fire seasons like duke and esp UK. So apologies for that. They’ve all been underwhelming to what we are used to seeing but KU has been the best of the four imo then UNC.

They both seem like tourney teams at least and tbh outside of Gonzaga and Baylor I’m not sure I see much of a difference in everyone else. Some teams look great one game and mediocre the next. And it seems like moreso than usual, that ranked teams are not only dropping games daily, but getting mauled in the process.

 

[UTPeschel]

Whoever wins this year will have the asterisk of asterisks. So your scenario is fine with me. They have both been pretty impressive.

No asterisks. An asterisk implies the challenge was easier. If anything, this year's challenge is more difficult.

 

[JimboBBN]

No asterisks. An asterisk implies the challenge was easier. If anything, this year's challenge is more difficult.

Right, playing depleted rosters and playing on the road in front of zero fans is so tough.

 

[dukedevilz]

UNC is young. They have 7 scholarship freshmen (1 played 5 games last year and was injured/redshirted). Their top 2 scorers are a sophomore and senior, but the next 4 are true freshmen.

You think anyone is going pro early? Maybe Sharpe?

 

[dukedevilz]

Zags weren't overly impressive last night. Pacific was able to keep the tempo slow, and even led 42-35 with about 15 minutes left in the game. Bilas, Farnham, and others rave about Gonzaga putting up 98 against Virginia. It was a great performance, no question. But, when you get a double-digit lead, the other team is forced to speed up the pace. Pacific was able to keep even with Gonzaga for 30 minutes of the game, allowing the tempo to be very slow. They also did a good job of limiting their fast break opportunities. Zags were able to pull away and late and win by 18, but it was very, very close for much of the game.

 

[FaithPlusOne]

You think anyone is going pro early? Maybe Sharpe?

I’d be very surprised if Sharpe is around next year. The others are a huge guess. Before the season I assumed Love would be a one and done but I have no idea now. I’m assuming the others will be back.

 

[della]

Nish! I have never defended Kentucky this season. In fact I’ve been their biggest critic, theirs and Cals. My argument actually hurts UK even more than yours does. In a year like this, we should be flourishing.

As far as Zags and Baylor, not sure yet. They pass the eye test, have played a solid number of games I guess. Who knows how many teams they’ve each played where the other team had a player or players out. Gonzaga hasn’t played anyone with a pulse recently.

The champion will be deserving, but to compare them to past champions who have had to play full schedules, teams that were not having players in and out on a nightly basis, and had to go on rigorous road trips to packed arenas. It’s just different. That has been my argument the whole time.

However, assuming the NCAAT happens, anyone winning it would have done what it takes just like any other season. Therefore, no asterisk.

 

[Villian07]

Right, playing depleted rosters and playing on the road in front of zero fans is so tough.

You act like every team is missing someone bc of covid every game, which is hardly the case. We’ve seen plenty of “full strength” basketball games this year.

We’ve played 1 game without 1 player all season. How many uk players have missed games with covid?

We have had two “pauses” and I know y’all have had one as well but I’m not sure that doesn’t hurt the team more than it helps.

But in the end it’s gonna depend on what happens in the tourney with regards to missing players with covid. Hopefully we get to find out.

 

[JimboBBN]

 

[ExitFlagger]

Gonzaga and Baylor would have been 1 seeds no matter what teams are dealing with. There is no asterisk unless a bunch of top teams are missing players in the tourney.

 

[Original_Irish]

Gonzaga and Baylor would have been 1 seeds no matter what teams are dealing with. There is no asterisk unless a bunch of top teams are missing players in the tourney.

Yes. Based off of who they have played. Would Gonzaga or Baylor not be undefeated in a non Covid year? The only loss would have been when they played each other.

 

[dukedevilz]

I’d be very surprised if Sharpe is around next year. The others are a huge guess. Before the season I assumed Love would be a one and done but I have no idea now. I’m assuming the others will be back.

Sharpe would have a monster year, possibly an All-American season, if he came back. He's very talented. Very efficient. Love, on the other hands, needs another year... or two. He's nowhere near NBA ready.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

The landscape has gradually moved into a new era where on top of a ton of OAD or 2AD, the free agency/transfer process is completely overhauling rosters/programs. And then it seems the list of HS players "re-classifying" is a thing, and then we see a couple guys jump straight to developmental league or even try going overseas?

So we aren't seeing dominant players and/or multiple teams with continuity. We see a bad product.

I don't think that means the season gets an asterisk, it's just a new era, and the addition of COVID just added to the mess.

 

[UTPeschel]

Right, playing depleted rosters and playing on the road in front of zero fans is so tough.

Playing with a depleted roster is also a challenge, and in the Zags signature wins none of the opponents were missing any key players. It's conjecture as to how much a crowd influences game outcomes. Top teams don't succumb to that pressure. Since you think otherwise and cited road games, to be consistent you'd have cite the absence of that supposed advantage in home games. Also, the rustiness in schedule pauses is a unique challenge.

 

[Villian07]

Sharpe would have a monster year, possibly an All-American season, if he came back. He's very talented. Very efficient. Love, on the other hands, needs another year... or two. He's nowhere near NBA ready.

the ole jinx post. Call out Love and he balls out against ya 😂

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

The biggest thing with COVID may be when teams can't even practice for extended time. Some teams didn't play a game for weeks to a month right in the middle of the year here. There's no way teams getting these sort of impacts can improve when they aren't playing.

 

[dukedevilz]

the ole jinx post. Call out Love and he balls out against ya 😂

Yup lol. I mentioned in the Duke/Carolina thread that we were the only team in America that could make Caleb Love look like an All-American. He looked really good last night. I also called out USC's Ethan Anderson last week - and then he went and had a career night against UCLA yesterday.

Matthew Hurt, Jalen Johnson, Jordan Goldwire, Wendell Moore, DJ Steward and Jeremy Roach are all trash. They'll never amount to anything.

USC's length and athleticism has intimidated more than a few teams this year. They could be an interesting matchup for a higher seed in the tournament. Just not crazy about Ethan Anderson running the point for a school trying to make the second weekend.