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Creighton

Kevin Bryan

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Apr 30, 2011
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A pre-season top 10 team that has now lost 5 in a row, with the last 3 being to very mediocre competition (Nebraska, BYU, ASU). Seems to me that lack of depth is a big issue for them. They have 4 guys averaging over 30 mpg and their 5th starter is at 28. They have a solid starting 5 but it's tough to close out games when they are playing so many minutes. They play @ Marquette on Friday too. Could be staring at 6 straight losses.
 
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Probably true. They definitely have a lot of talent in the starting 5. I thought this would be their year to make some noise.

Still early though.
 
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Probably true. They definitely have a lot of talent in the starting 5. I thought this would be their year to make some noise.

Still early though.
I thought so too. A little surprised to see them struggling this much. The Big East slate won't be a cake walk either. They have some sneaky good teams. Scheierman can suck a D though. Really wanted that guy at UK.
 
They‘ve played the last two without their best player, Kalkbrenner. And lost by 2 and 3. If he plays, odds are they only have the one bad loss if he plays (Nebraska).

Thwy definitely aren’t top 10 but if he cones back soon, they are still top 25.
 
A pre-season top 10 team that has now lost 5 in a row, with the last 3 being to very mediocre competition (Nebraska, BYU, ASU).

Arizona State isn't mediocre, though. That's a tournament team. Fringe Top 25, IMO.

Been thinking about this a bit lately, as I was asking why Creighton was doing so poorly in another thread. I've seen all of their losses, minus the Nebraska game (figured that was an easy win). Creighton wasn't that far off from beating both Arizona and Texas (two top 10 teams). Easily could have won both games. Same could be said for the losses these past few days to ASU and BYU. Good chance they have 2 less losses with Kalkbrenner in the lineup.

I actually think Creighton's ball movement was better than ASU's last night. Did a little digging, and I found this. Based on shot quality, Creighton should have won 76-68. This confirms what I was thinking. Creighton was getting better looks than ASU, but ASU was just making their shots, many of which were contested. Also, Creighton now has a legitimate quality bench player in Frederick King. 16 points, 11 boards, 5 blocks last night. Obviously he can't share the court with Kalk, but they at least have a huge insurance if there are injury or foul issues. The guards weren't shy about giving a seldom-used bench player plenty of touches. They obviously have confidence in King's ability. Could be an all-conference type player whenever he assumes the starting role.

All in all, Creighton is still a tournament team. Maybe not the national title threat that some were speculating before the season, but still a very good team. Maybe in the 15-30 range for national rankings, provided the team is completely healthy. I think biggest reason why some thought they could be a legit top 5 team is because of the sophomore class of Kaluma, Nembhard, and Alexander. Thought we'd see a significant sophomore leap in progression, but that hasn't really happened.

Fj3D8l0XkAEcMTN
 
Arizona State isn't mediocre, though. That's a tournament team. Fringe Top 25, IMO.

Been thinking about this a bit lately, as I was asking why Creighton was doing so poorly in another thread. I've seen all of their losses, minus the Nebraska game (figured that was an easy win). Creighton wasn't that far off from beating both Arizona and Texas (two top 10 teams). Easily could have won both games. Same could be said for the losses these past few days to ASU and BYU. Good chance they have 2 less losses with Kalkbrenner in the lineup.

I actually think Creighton's ball movement was better than ASU's last night. Did a little digging, and I found this. Based on shot quality, Creighton should have won 76-68. This confirms what I was thinking. Creighton was getting better looks than ASU, but ASU was just making their shots, many of which were contested. Also, Creighton now has a legitimate quality bench player in Frederick King. 16 points, 11 boards, 5 blocks last night. Obviously he can't share the court with Kalk, but they at least have a huge insurance if there are injury or foul issues. The guards weren't shy about giving a seldom-used bench player plenty of touches. They obviously have confidence in King's ability. Could be an all-conference type player whenever he assumes the starting role.

All in all, Creighton is still a tournament team. Maybe not the national title threat that some were speculating before the season, but still a very good team. Maybe in the 15-30 range for national rankings, provided the team is completely healthy. I think biggest reason why some thought they could be a legit top 5 team is because of the sophomore class of Kaluma, Nembhard, and Alexander. Thought we'd see a significant sophomore leap in progression, but that hasn't really happened.

Fj3D8l0XkAEcMTN
Creighton was definitely missing some good looks last night. I suspect a lot of that has to do with tired legs since they are playing so many minutes, especially minus Kalkbrenner. Still not sold on ASU being more than mediocre. I think there are plenty of mediocre teams that get at-large bids in the tournament every year. Of course, the meaning of mediocre differs from one person to the next.
 
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Creighton was definitely missing some good looks last night. I suspect a lot of that has to do with tired legs since they are playing so many minutes, especially minus Kalkbrenner. Still not sold on ASU being more than mediocre. I think there are plenty of mediocre teams that get at-large bids in the tournament every year. Of course, the meaning of mediocre differs from one person to the next.

How would you define mediocre?

Arizona State is 26th in the NET, 30th in AP Votes, and 38th in KenPom. Obviously the sample size is low right now, but where is your cutoff, more or less?

ASU has some weaknesses, namely perimeter shooting. But, I love their guards. They're quick and they're usually very tenacious on defense.
 
at the start of the year I thought this was a Elite 8 team for sure.
 
I think being forced to use their bench, especially in early to mid Dec, might just be what's best for Creighton (assuming they get & stay healthy) in the long run.

Love that King looked competent (& more comfortable) vs ASU.

Creighton is not a contender if unhealthy, tho.
 
How would you define mediocre?

Arizona State is 26th in the NET, 30th in AP Votes, and 38th in KenPom. Obviously the sample size is low right now, but where is your cutoff, more or less?

ASU has some weaknesses, namely perimeter shooting. But, I love their guards. They're quick and they're usually very tenacious on defense.
I don't typically look at it in analytical terms. I just base it on what I see like we all used to do before analytics took center stage. In my opinion, there is not and never will be an analytical formula that can accurately represent quality of competition, and that is the most important factor. They can crunch all the wins/losses, stats, trends, projections, adjust this, adjust that, simulate everything a billion times, but actual talent cannot be measured that way. There are also 363 teams and none of them play identical schedules. There will inevitably be people who will argue this by saying something like, "well every national champion since 1492 has been in the KenPom top 10" or something like that. Well, yeah, it doesn't come as some major shock that the best teams also tend to be highly efficient on both ends of the court. It doesn't mean KenPom has some magical formula that predicts the best teams in the country. His rankings change as the year goes on just like the polls, bracketology, or anything else, and the cream usually rises to the top. It's like Joe Lunardi making his NCAAT projections. He can be all over the map all year and it makes no difference. It only matters what he puts out right before the selection show. Then he can brag that he picked 67 out of 68 teams correctly. Well shit, Joe, by then it was pretty damn obvious to most of America and 32 of those picks were auto bids. How many of your projected mid-major conference champs actually lost in their tourneys and you had to change your auto bid pick before the final version of Bracketology? lol

Anyway, sorry that kind of took a left turn... mediocre to me means slightly better than average but nothing special, neither very good nor very bad. Most teams fall into this category for me, including many tournament teams. I also think a lot of the teams in the top 25 at any given time are mediocre. For me to think a team is very good to great they have to be a national title contender in my mind, which typically only includes a dozen or so teams every year. I guess I really don't have a "good" rating on my scale. Teams are either very good to great, mediocre, or they suck. 🤣 For instance, at this point I would say UK is mediocre (at best). They would have no chance to win a natty if the tournament started right now. Could that change in the future? Maybe, they have the talent, but it's unlikely they'll put all the pieces together. I also wouldn't usually consider a team that lost to Texas Southern to be a threat to win a national championship but you never know. There are sometimes outliers and blips on the radar screen. I remember UNC losing to a bad Santa Clara team in the first game of the 2004-05 season before going on to win the natty. Sometimes there are even what I would consider mediocre teams that get hot at the right time and end up hoisting the trophy ('85 Nova, '14 UConn). They won the title but that doesn't make me automatically say, "wow, they were a really good team!" No, they were still mediocre, they just got hot at the right time and probably got a little lucky along the way too. Again, just my own personal opinion.
 
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I’m just hoping they can get into the tournament at this point. Get healthy and get hot at the right time and make a run.
 
A pre-season top 10 team that has now lost 5 in a row, with the last 3 being to very mediocre competition (Nebraska, BYU, ASU). Seems to me that lack of depth is a big issue for them. They have 4 guys averaging over 30 mpg and their 5th starter is at 28. They have a solid starting 5 but it's tough to close out games when they are playing so many minutes. They play @ Marquette on Friday too. Could be staring at 6 straight losses.
I actually thought they may be a little overrated when Arkansas played them. Or at least I didn’t think how they played in the tournament was maintainable. They shot 60% from the field most games despite most of their shots being perimeter shots and specifically against Arkansas, they shot a lot of free throws to only win by 3. Plus Nick Smith was out.

I’m sure depth is a big issue, but teams like creighton rely on shots going down. Hard to stay consistent when you shoot so much from the outside and I think when teams like that lose confidence, they struggle.
 
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Parity. Probably not a team you want to be playing early in the NCAAT because they are probably better than whatever seed they get.

Then again if they aren't careful they could miss it. The BE is no joke this year. Some depth there.
 
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I don't typically look at it in analytical terms. I just base it on what I see like we all used to do before analytics took center stage. In my opinion, there is not and never will be an analytical formula that can accurately represent quality of competition, and that is the most important factor. They can crunch all the wins/losses, stats, trends, projections, adjust this, adjust that, simulate everything a billion times, but actual talent cannot be measured that way. There are also 363 teams and none of them play identical schedules. There will inevitably be people who will argue this by saying something like, "well every national champion since 1492 has been in the KenPom top 10" or something like that. Well, yeah, it doesn't come as some major shock that the best teams also tend to be highly efficient on both ends of the court. It doesn't mean KenPom has some magical formula that predicts the best teams in the country. His rankings change as the year goes on just like the polls, bracketology, or anything else, and the cream usually rises to the top. It's like Joe Lunardi making his NCAAT projections. He can be all over the map all year and it makes no difference. It only matters what he puts out right before the selection show. Then he can brag that he picked 67 out of 68 teams correctly. Well shit, Joe, by then it was pretty damn obvious to most of America and 32 of those picks were auto bids. How many of your projected mid-major conference champs actually lost in their tourneys and you had to change your auto bid pick before the final version of Bracketology? lol

Anyway, sorry that kind of took a left turn... mediocre to me means slightly better than average but nothing special, neither very good nor very bad. Most teams fall into this category for me, including many tournament teams. I also think a lot of the teams in the top 25 at any given time are mediocre. For me to think a team is very good to great they have to be a national title contender in my mind, which typically only includes a dozen or so teams every year. I guess I really don't have a "good" rating on my scale. Teams are either very good to great, mediocre, or they suck. 🤣 For instance, at this point I would say UK is mediocre (at best). They would have no chance to win a natty if the tournament started right now. Could that change in the future? Maybe, they have the talent, but it's unlikely they'll put all the pieces together. I also wouldn't usually consider a team that lost to Texas Southern to be a threat to win a national championship but you never know. There are sometimes outliers and blips on the radar screen. I remember UNC losing to a bad Santa Clara team in the first game of the 2004-05 season before going on to win the natty. Sometimes there are even what I would consider mediocre teams that get hot at the right time and end up hoisting the trophy ('85 Nova, '14 UConn). They won the title but that doesn't make me automatically say, "wow, they were a really good team!" No, they were still mediocre, they just got hot at the right time and probably got a little lucky along the way too. Again, just my own personal opinion.

Just seeing this now.

Interesting perspective. So essentially, if you're not a serious title threat, you see everyone as being mediocre or straight up garbage.

Obviously your numbers wouldn't be exact like this, as it sounds like it's more dependent on the eye test, but your tiers, if you ranked all 363 teams, would more or less look like this:

Good/Great: 1-10
Mediocre: 11-100
Trash: Everyone else
 
Just seeing this now.

Interesting perspective. So essentially, if you're not a serious title threat, you see everyone as being mediocre or straight up garbage.

Obviously your numbers wouldn't be exact like this, as it sounds like it's more dependent on the eye test, but your tiers, if you ranked all 363 teams, would more or less look like this:

Good/Great: 1-10
Mediocre: 11-100
Trash: Everyone else
Yep, that is basically it. I mean, if you aren't a legitimate title contender are you really that good?
 
Yep, that is basically it. I mean, if you aren't a legitimate title contender are you really that good?

It's subjective, for sure.

Though, I would look at recent memory and pushback a little bit. Your criteria is more or less top 3 seeds. If you look at the past 11 Final Fours, we've seen 17/44 schools that were a 4 seed or lower (38.6%). And 25% of those schools were even a 7 seed or lower.
 
It's subjective, for sure.

Though, I would look at recent memory and pushback a little bit. Your criteria is more or less top 3 seeds. If you look at the past 11 Final Fours, we've seen 17/44 schools that were a 4 seed or lower (38.6%). And 25% of those schools were even a 7 seed or lower.
That's why the NCAAT is the best tournament in all of sports. 😎
 
Then mediocre teams become good teams in a few weeks. And good teams becoem trash based off a game.
Georgia won the SECT in 2008. They finished dead last in the regular season 13-16 (4-12) but the stars aligned and they won 4 games in 3 days to punch their ticket. They were still trash though. That never changed. The better team doesn't always win.
 
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Kevin, you also have to consider that sometimes you might be labeling teams trash based on the 5 minutes of play you saw while flipping through channels in early November. 😎
 
Kevin, you also have to consider that sometimes you might be labeling teams trash based on the 5 minutes of play you saw while flipping through channels in early November. 😎
I have seen Kentucky play for 410 minutes this season and can definitely say they are trash but according to KenPom they are #8. Is it a possibility they get there at some point during the season? Maybe... probably not though. Are they there now? LOL.....no.
 
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I have seen Kentucky play for 410 minutes this season and can definitely say they are trash but according to KenPom they are #8. Is it a possibility they get there at some point during the season? Maybe... probably not though. Are they there now? LOL.....no.

Kenpom is definitely flawed early in the year. Relies way too heavily on preseason data.

I haven't seen enough of Kentucky to have a strong opinion of where they should be.
 
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Kenpom is definitely flawed early in the year. Relies way too heavily on preseason data.

I haven't seen enough of Kentucky to have a strong opinion of where they should be.
Here is a snippet of their go-to half court offense:
Spread the court and have everyone stand at their spots like statues while Wheeler dribbles in the same spot for 20 seconds. Run offense with 3 seconds left on the shot clock and throw up a low percentage prayer or just turn the ball over. Rinse and repeat all game.
 
Here is a snippet of their go-to half court offense:
Spread the court and have everyone stand at their spots like statues while Wheeler dribbles in the same spot for 20 seconds. Run offense with 3 seconds left on the shot clock and throw up a low percentage prayer or just turn the ball over. Rinse and repeat all game.

I'm sure they'll all magically live up to their potential again when KU comes to town. 🤣
 
Georgia won the SECT in 2008. They finished dead last in the regular season 13-16 (4-12) but the stars aligned and they won 4 games in 3 days to punch their ticket. They were still trash though. That never changed. The better team doesn't always win.

4 games in 3 days? Did they have to play one game after midnight or something? One year the roof was leaking, IIRC. And I think the rest of the tournament was played at Georgia Tech. Was that the same year?
 
4 games in 3 days? Did they have to play one game after midnight or something? One year the roof was leaking, IIRC. And I think the rest of the tournament was played at Georgia Tech. Was that the same year?
Yeah, it was the year the roof got torn up by a tornado so they moved it to Georgia Tech and didn't let any fans in. They beat UK Saturday morning and MSU a couple hours later and finished it off with a win against Arkansas in the title game. The UK game went to OT too, so those guys played A LOT of minutes.
 
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How would you define mediocre?

Arizona State is 26th in the NET, 30th in AP Votes, and 38th in KenPom. Obviously the sample size is low right now, but where is your cutoff, more or less?

ASU has some weaknesses, namely perimeter shooting. But, I love their guards. They're quick and they're usually very tenacious on defense.

ASU was slightly worse than mediocre tonight. 😬

 
Hurley probably wishes he would've gotten tossed in the first half rather than late in the 2nd.


Iol sad.

So, I didn't think anyone would be talking about this game on this forum. So, that was a little spoiler for me. Was the last game on my que for the night. Decided to watch the game a little bit. Are they a great team? No, they're not - and they're not going to outclass UCLA or Arizona for the league title. Still think they're a solid #3 team in the Pac-12. And I think they're a tournament team. So, I would classify them as a good team (maybe in the 23-45 range), but clearly not an elite team.

They were missing Desmond Cambridge today, who I believe is their emotional leader. Biggest difference from today from the other games I've seen: energy level was not the same at all. Those guards are usually all over the place wreaking havoc on defense. The one commentator kept remarking over and over, "This is very surprising! I was not expecting this!" They got shell-shocked and never quite recovered. Though, Hurley's body language was worse than his players lol.
 
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