College basketball's way-too-early preseason top 25 teams for the 2020-21 season

Discussion in 'College Basketball Board' started by BasketBallJunkie-UK, Mar 18, 2020.

  1. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    It's assumed that Montgomery will make a huge leap because Cal and Kenny Payne have shown time and time again that they develop 4's and 5's better than anyone in the college game and Montgomery is miles ahead of where Richards was last year in his Sophomore season. Richards could barely catch a basketball and if he did, he either fumbled it within seconds or had it stripped.

    EJ will also have two top 5 wings on the court with him that will prevent double teams and open up space.

    As far as your comment about NBA talent not mattering in the college game, well, that's just wrong. It certainly does matter, especially in March once that talent has had a full season to develop.

    Yeah, UK doesn’t have the titles it SHOULD have, but the tournament is very random, as a Kansas fan, you know this better than anybody. That's not a shot at the KU program, it's just a fact. Bradley, WSU and Northern Iowa weren’t better teams than KU, they just won the one game they had with KU.

    But sometimes youth catches up to you when you're teams are freshmen based and you don't have top 5 lottery pick talent.

    But on the flip side, how many teams can say they have better March results than UK since 2010? Duke and Nova have 1 more title but they have far more flameouts too.

    As far as Dok and Dotson returning when they're projected as late first rounders, well, that would be a mistake on their part. If you're a first round pick, you better leave.

    That brings me to Baylor, do they have anyone projected to go first or second round? Why are they returning? Whether you believe it or not, talent, size and length matter. If Baylor is rolling a bunch of 6'5" seasoned 3* players out there in an NCAAT game against a team loaded with NBA first round pick talent, which team are you betting on?

    Remember, Baylor has Dean Pritchard as their coach.
     
  2. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    really nothing special on a team that is loaded with 5* players with the rest top 50 4*'s? GMFB, 99.9% of the teams would sell their souls to have that kind of talent on their teams. oh boo hoo the back court was not that special.
     
  3. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Duke was 8-0 and #1 in the country before Kyrie Irving's injury in 2011. We had two top 10 wins at that point. He came back in the NCAAT, but the flow of the offense wasn't the same with his return.

    We were 15-0 and #1 in the country in 2013 before Ryan Kelly broke his foot - we had 3 top 10 wins at that point.

    Harry Giles was the #1 recruit coming out of high school. His minutes were limited the whole season, and he clearly wasn't the same player when he came back after missing almost two full years of basketball. As it was, we had 15 wins over top 50 teams before the start of the NCAAT. Can only imagine what we'd have been like with a healthy Giles.

    Those are three pretty big ifs on teams that all had the firepower to win the national title. Injuries suck, and probably just about every team in America has been materially effected by them at one port or another.
     
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  4. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    it all depend on what their starting 5 looks like
    SR 6'11 Garza @ the 5
    RSJR 7'0 Nunge or 6'5 Connor as a point forward @ the 4
    JR 6'6 Wieskamp at the 3
    RSSO 6'3 Fredrick at the 2
    SO Toussaint at the one

    opinion?
     
  5. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    Iowa played W/O 2 starters, with injuries to 2 others causing them to miss multiple games.

    and you are crying about different players in different years.

    cry me a river already about a couple of injury on a team loaded with 5*'s and top 50 4*'s.
     
  6. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Never mind the fact that Duke has won at Michigan State, Indiana, and Wisconsin all within the last 5 years.

    And Iowa never beat a Duke team led Christian Laettner. That was the infamous '95 Duke team that went 2-14 in the ACC. But, congrats on being 1-7 all-time against us.

    Not saying we didn't have talent. Certainly we had way, way more than the typical power 6 school. But, I was comparing them to our standard of greatness. I'd say only the 2010, 2015, and 2019 teams would be considered among the top 15 Duke teams of all-time.
     
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  7. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    I only detailed those injuries after MrBaracus asked for specifics. My point was that injuries happen to everyone. And they do. It sucks, but it's part of the game.

    And are you sure you haven't cried about injuries before? I think we only heard you whining 3-4 times a week about Iowa playing without Bohannon, Nunge, Frederick, and McCaffery.
     
  8. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
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    One team started in the top 5 seven times, the other six. Seems pretty even.
     
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  9. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    How is it a mistake to return if you’re fringe first round? Unless there’s absolutely nothing you can improve, I’d say it’s generally a mistake to leave. You could argue that Azubuike has maxed out his stock, but not Dotson. A more consistent outside shot could make him a lottery pick. Regardless, many draft projections have both going second round.

    Baylor was pretty clearly a better team than Kentucky this season. By everything you’re saying, that shouldn’t have happened. Kentucky had the edge in all the categories you’re mentioning AND solid experience. As for Drew, he's obviously a pretty solid coach. Baylor was terrible when he arrived, and now they're a perennial tourney team with a couple elite 8s and several Sweet 16s. Top 5 team this year. With, according to you, little talent. What exactly do you expect him to be accomplishing?

    You guys really make way too much out of rankings. You even downplayed a #9 ranked player earlier. Seriously? The supposed 9th-best recruit in the entire nation is just ho hum now? I mean, he may be overrated, but I don't think that's what you're arguing. You're just looking at a number. That guy could be the best freshman in the country next year...who knows?

    You also talk out of both sides of your mouth. In one argument, you'll say "I'll take the hyped players with measurables," and in another argument you'll say it's easier to win with experienced players.

    Quickley is expected to go through the draft process. I assume you know this, yet you expect him to return. Why aren't you applying the same logic to him? So it's a huge boost to get him back, even though his stock isn't that high and you're expecting him to not impress NBA staffs? Yet for every Baylor guard, "there's a reason they're returning."

    Myles Powell and Winston are projected late 2nd round. Howard, Pritchard and Flynn mid 2nd round. Are these not players you'd take on your team in a heartbeat?

    Btw, besides 2015, what titles should Kentucky have? You act as if they finish every regular season as the undisputed #1. There have only been one or two of those even in the Cal era.
     
    89 MrBaracus, Mar 19, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  10. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    Are we talking about a game being played in Carver Hawkeye arena or in an NCAA tournament game. Iowa is much like Purdon't. Play like grizzlies at home, but fall flat on their face away from home.

    IMO, Garza should go to the draft this year, next years draft is going to be stronger.
     
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  11. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    Jeez man, you're stretching a lot of the things I said.

    First of all, just because Baylir had a higher ranking and did well in the BIG12, doesn't mean they would for sure beat UK in the NCAAT. You're assuming Baylor would win that game. Take a look at the BIG12 results in the tournament. The BIG12 doesn’t have very much success at all, but you always act like BIG12 teams are somehow better because they played in your favorite conference.

    Yeah, if you're projected to go first round, the smart thing to do, especially in a weak year, is go to the draft. It is incredibly dumb to return to college and play under practice restrictions for free.

    As far as Quickly, he's a 6'2" shooting guard with average athletesism and average length. He's a younger version of Powell from Seton Hall. On top of that, there most likely won't be a combine and it sounds like players will not be able to do individual workouts for NBA teams, so guys like IQ are at a disadvantage. Same with EJ. Both should be back. Heck, even Hagans might have to come back. None of those guys are projected first round.

    Lastly, UK has had more NBA talent come through it's doors the last 10 years than anyone but Duke.
    Our 2010, 2011, 2014, 2017 and 2019 teams were easily good enough to win titles. 2011 lost in the FF to UConn by a bucket. 2014 lost to UConn in the title game, minus Willie Cauley Stein. 2017 got roofereed and if the UNC caveman didn’t hit that shot, UK had a legit shot to win the title. That Fox/Monk/Bam team was cooking at that time.
     
  12. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    Several teams every year are good enough to win titles. Doesn't mean they can all claim that they should have.

    You change your argument a lot. In the past, you'd ague that many of those teams were too young to have title expectations. And that experience is an advantage over raw talent. Remember this the next time someone criticizes Cal for not having more titles. Because you're right, he's had far and away more "talent" than anyone but K.

    And I never said Baylor would for sure beat Kentucky in the tourney. There are very few "for sures" in the tourney period. But they had the better season. Arguing that would be pretty homerish. And I've actually seen you admit before that Baylor was in a tier above Kentucky this year. Now you're changing to fit the argument.

    The Big 12 has nothing to do with it, but they have put three teams in the final four in the last four years, and had a few strong final four contenders this year.

    Also, are you saying that as long as there's one late first round projection somewhere on the internet, it would be stupid not to leave?
     
    92 MrBaracus, Mar 19, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  13. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
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    The tourney is a total crap shoot. If a 16 beat a 1, anything can happen.

    But by every metric and eye test, Baylor was better than Kentucky this past season.
     
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  14. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    More and more buzz in the commonwealth that Quickley and Montgomery will be back plus a grad transfer big man is already locked up but no one is saying who it is.

    I think shooting is a fair concern next year. Juzang and Allen can shoot. But how much will they play? Boston, Clark and Quickly will undoubtedly start. Who is the first guard off the bench between askew, Juzang and Allen. I don’t expect Allen to play a lot. He’ll basically be a freshman that hasn’t played for a year and a half. I liked what I saw from Juzang at the end of the year. Askew will be the back up point guard so he’ll definitely play.

    I have to see more from brooks before I feel confident saying he can be a reliable 3 point threat. Montgomery came in with the rep as having a nice outside touch but we haven’t seen much of it. I just think you need more than one reliable outside shooter among the lineup that’s going to be on the floor the most. Hopefully Boston or Clarke’s percentage gets a health bump from playing with better players like Devin Booker, Keldon Johnson and Malik Monks all did.
     
  15. EvilMonkeyInTheCloset

    EvilMonkeyInTheCloset Well-Known Member
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    Lol you lost to Iowa.


    Iowa > Duke
     
  16. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    You do realize that these kids aren't getting their advice from NBADraft.net right? No, they get their information from NBA scouts, coaches and agents. They aren't making big life decisions based on what a website thinks. If a kid is told he's going to be taken in the first round, he better go.

    Yeah, Baylor was certainly in a tier above UK, but that was a comment I said either in late January or early February before Baylor lost 3 out of 5 games. One of which was to KSU by 19. UK had a size advantage on them as well. Seemed to me that Baylor was coming back down to earth and some warts were showing up. And again, coach Dean Pritchard isn't the guy I would pick to win tournament games.

    As far as the title discussion, nobody can actually claim they should have won the title. I don’t even know why this is a thing, but this is what happens when anyone gets in a discussion with you, the discussion morphs into crap that has nothing to do with what we were talking about, but you're saying that I change my argument a lot?!?!? Weird. I've been very consistent with my arguments.

    So, you felt the need to let me know that the BIG12 has had 4 teams in the FF the last 4 years. Timeframing is fun isn’t it? (Note, another topic change by you, but I'll bite). Cool, the SEC had 4 teams that reached the FF from 2012 to 2015. There were two SEC teams in the 2014 FF. Not bad for such a shit conference huh? Are you ready to start counting titles? Ready to start counting the amount of title teams in each league?

    Maybe we can eventually get back on topic, which is the rankings for next year.

    Or do you want to move on to how awesome the BIG12 is in mens platform diving now?
     
  17. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    You have a different eye test. Remember, Baylor wasn’t going to he playing the November or December version of UK, they would be getting the March version, which was a different animal.

    UK had a big size advantage, a talent advantage and a coaching advantage. Yes, Baylor was a damn good team, but in an NCAAT setting, I liked what UK had.

    Now, don't get me wrong, there are other teams I would rather face than Baylor, but UK was trending and Baylor was sinking. Losing by 19 at Kansas State was a bad loss and losing 3 out of 5 was also very telling. They struggled with KU's size and quickness. Well, UK had more size than KU.

    Also, they're a BIG12 team man, tournament success is not in their DNA, they are destined to lose. SmokinSmile
     
  18. BrewHawk

    BrewHawk Well-Known Member
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    One of the few people who actually shut him up.

    Thank you sir!
     
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  19. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    yup since Fran only had 8 scholarship players for the BT season, losing Connor and CJ During that time Fran was down to 6 to go thru the BT season and yet Iowa still finished in 5th and in the top 25.

    plus I was not the only talking about injuries as Hail constantly talked about the wolverines suffered W/O Livers, that's just one player and you as well talk about JUST 1 players in each of those seasons.

    lets get real here, when talking about how injuries affecting a team. this season was one of Fran's best coaching jobs plus it just proved my point on the talent level of this team
    Toussaint 4* by ESPN
    Wieskamp 4* top 100 by both
    Connor 4* top 100 by ESPN
    Garza 4* top 100 by ESPN
    3 4* top 100 and a total of 4 4*

    Patrick 4* top 100 by both RS'd due to the residual effect of his prior Cancer Surgery
    JBo was a 4* by ESPN
     
  20. BrewHawk

    BrewHawk Well-Known Member
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    I spoke too soon.
     
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  21. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    not really as the highest he is rated is #84, there's what 60-64 total picks, plus he is predicted to end up playing in Europe not exactly major money. the European money will still be there next summer.

    right now he is working on his moves and is getting his legs stronger to improve his jumping and athletic ability.

    in the one video that was shown he is getting more elevation to where he can dunk one handed something he couldn't do last year.

    if he keeps improving on that he can make a case to be at worst a 2nd rnd lock and a low 1st Rnd pick at best.
     
  22. jwardelt

    jwardelt Well-Known Member
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    He can do whatever he wants, he's still playing in Europe next.
     
  23. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    lol right. So every time you speak of injuries, it's because of hail? GTFO. These are all of your injury updates from the last two weeks of the season.






     
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  24. jwardelt

    jwardelt Well-Known Member
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    I hope Luka is using the greatest jumping technology.

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    LOL. I didn't change topics once. You keep wanting to bring the Big 12 into it (shocker). Apparently you think that because Baylor is a Big 12 team, they'd be less likely to beat Kentucky in the tournament. Which is why I mentioned the final four teams. We'll set aside the fact that a weak K-State team bounced Kentucky just a few years ago.

    Btw, no one will ever agree with you that the SEC is superior. Florida had some good years and even that's in the past. They're extremely average now. We're back to the usual. The occasional program steps up with a decent year (decent being the operative word for a league that's had like 2 top 15 teams other than Kentucky in 12 years). The occasional fluke run by a South Carolina or Auburn doesn't really say anything about the overall quality of the league.

    I've never portrayed the Big 12 as any kind of superleague, but it generally has pretty good depth, and at least one top 10ish team (other than KU) in any given year.

    Kentucky was trending up and Baylor trending down? Because they finally lost a few games? One to KU and one in Morgantown? While Kentucky was scraping by weak teams and losing at home to Tenn? Okay. The problem here is that you guys never use the same fine toothed comb on your own team as you do with everyone else.

    And yeah, I know that players don't get their info from NBAdraft.net. But you're apparently convinced that Dotson should leave. Are you talking to NBA scouts?
     
    105 MrBaracus, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  26. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    wish I could post the video of that workout

    he is in one of the traction device where it pulls you back as you try to move forward.

    his father and uncle who was a major star in Europe are both working with him on his conditioning. strength and skills. this is being done because the defender spotted a weakness in his game.

    in the video his vertical has incresed to 18" up from 15". as he has only been working on this for the last 2 weeks.

    if he can get his vertical up to 24" that will only improve his game and working on his tendencies he will only get better.

    with the addition of Nunge the dbl teams won't be so easy. having a healthy JBo will also space the floor, again less dbl teams let alone triple teams.

    he also won't need to play the full 40 minutes like he did this past fall which led to tired legs down the stretch.

    one thing that happened is the other teams started to use 10-12 players to wear out the Iowa players.
     
  27. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    your ignorance know no bounds does it. there is huge difference between losing one player vs losing 4 in one season. teams were playing 10-12 players vs Fran's team that only had 8 players with one of those being a walk on before getting a scholarship for this season.

    Iowa is not loaded like Duke is, Iowa has players in the 100 - 70 4*'s vs Duke who has players in the top 40 that are 4* and 5* 1 n done players.

    hey everybody lets all have a pity party for poor poor dukedevilz they had 1 5* get hurt and the team collapsed.

    msg board action dragon hands dukedevilz a crying towel.
     
  28. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
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  29. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    lf I had a nickel for every game you didn't whine about refs or injuries, I'd have about a nickel.
     
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  30. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
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    I mean is losing at Kansas st by 19 so much more significant than losing at home to tenn by 18? Granted UK ended on a high note in the 19 pt comeback @ fla, but still u keep bringing up losing @ kstate by 19 when uk had just as bad a loss in the last week or so of the season. No one knows who would’ve won a game between the two but after Baylor passed uk in the polls Uk never passed em back. So again I’d def have to say Baylor had a better season, but with no tourney it doesn’t mean much.

    Also add 09 to the def shoulda won the title, team was stacked.
     
    110 Villian07, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  31. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    I'm firmly convinced that you only skim through most posts and pick out certain things and argue them without reading the entire sentence that you poached them from.

    Sighhhh, go back and read what I said about Dotson going to the draft. I simply said that he should go if a team told him they would take him in the first round.

    Also, my opinion is the SEC >>> BIG12. Sorry, I value Final Fours and Titles. You can say South Carolina and Auburn had fluke runs that landed them in the FF, but not say the same for Texas Tech and Oklahoma.

    But besides KU in 2008 and 1988, who else has won a title in the last 80 years?

    There, that should piss you off.
     
  32. kyjeff1

    kyjeff1 Well-Known Member
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    I did a virtual reality game between UK and Baylor. UK won by 12, so that's what I'm going with.
     
  33. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    actually was talking about next season @ full strength. with these as backups
    1 6'2 Ulis
    2 6'1 JBo 6'4 Perkins
    3 6'9 Patrick 6'8 Kris
    4 6'8 Pemsl 6'9 Keegan
    5 6'11 Ogundele
    these I will call the calvary that can come in and finish the games
    FR Ulis
    FR Perkins
    FR Kris
    FR Keegan
    FR Ogundele

    they can play in the blow outs [mop up duty] to get experience to be the starters in their JR years.

    with Fran has players get more experience they better they get.
     
  34. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
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    Cool story Any team that starts the season unranked, and ends up ranked higher than a top 5 preseason team undoubtedly had the better season.

    They had a better season than us and a lot of other teams as well. Would I have been scared to play them, absolutely not, but again that doesn’t mean they didn’t have the better season.

    And I’ll double down on baracus take about one of those “weak” big 12 teams Kansas State bounced UK in the easiest path to the final four the ncaaT has ever opened up, I mean a 9/11 seeds playing to get into the final four, that has to be a record for an elite 8 game, no? If y’all could lose to them thatbuear you most def could have lost to Baylor this year.

    Also curious on why the best developer of 4/5s in the country didn’t bring Montgomery along at the same rate as Richards? Most players make the biggest jump between freshman and soph years, so I’m not sure assuming a huge jump is a guarantee although he should have more opportunities. And I will say that they did do wonders for Richards, I figured Montgomery would be the one to emerge this year after watching them both as frosh. I would not be one bit surprised if brooks was better than Montgomery next season.
     
    114 Villian07, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  35. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    I think the jump comes from how hard they work on improving their games. also as for the biggest jump does not come between their FR and SO years as in their SO season coaches have video of them to use in spotting tendacies in their game, call it the SO slump but its more like learning how to adjust to the intensity of the defensive attention that is getting ramped up. this is where the biggest jump comes between their SO and JR year.
     
  36. Villian07

    Villian07 Well-Known Member
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    I mean I guess u can argue that, I don’t agree with it, but I’m sure there have been many players take a huge jump from Frosh-soph as well as soph-junior. Guess it depends a lot on ur PT and expectations as a freshmen, as well as getting more opportunities as the older/higher rated players leave.

    As far as UK is concerned, they usually don’t trot out too many JRs, they’ve either already went pro or transferred out. Iowa is much diff bc they build their rosters out over time and don’t have the constant turnover that uk does. But what ur failing to comprehend is that no one really cares about Iowa one way or the other itt.

    I’ve heard of hitting the freshman wall in basketball far more than I’ve heard of a sophomore slump which imo is more of a baseball thing as opponents have tape to pick apart ur swing.
     
  37. VaultHunter

    VaultHunter Well-Known Member
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    WVU has two 4 Star wing players in Jalen Bridges and Isaiah Cotrell coming in to a young team that went through growing pains last season. Along with MD AA Oscar Tshiebwe and if 4 Star PF Culver comes back.

    If Duece McBride can lockdown the PG role this might be Huggins best team ever at WVU.
     
  38. mebeblue2

    mebeblue2 Well-Known Member
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    will your little man syndrome ever end
     
    KisteK and kyjeff1 like this.
  39. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the feedback. But it's called stirring up discussion during a lull. If you don't like it, go hang out in the thread about Tyler Herro's spending habits.
     
  40. dragonhawk1855

    dragonhawk1855 Well-Known Member
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    Wieskamp was rated #42 overall by Rivals, and that is what happened to him,
    Garza was as 4* top 100 by ESPN here are his numbers
    FR 12.1 ppg
    6.2 rpg
    32 blocks

    SO 13.1 ppg
    4.5 rpg
    17 blocks

    JR
    23.9 ppg
    9.8 rpg
    55 blocks

    gee stats don't agree with your assessment

    boy it must really piss you off that Iowa is ranked #7 in a preseason poll and #6 in another.

    now that Garza is coming back the polls will respond in the same well knowing that the
    NPOY, BTPOY, 1st Team AA is returning
    and will be joined by these
    3rd team All BT player Jordan who was a 4* by ESPN
    3rd team All BT player Wieskamp top 100 4* by ESPN #42 by Rivals
    All BT FR team member Fredick
    and their top 19 recruit in top 100 4* Patrick McCaffrey will join the team
    4* Top 100 Connor will be back.
    4* by ESPN Toussaint will be a 2nd year starter at the point. this is the most talented players on his team in his tenure.

    this is why they are being voted to be in the top 10.
     

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