What it takes to win a title
- Thread starter boilerzz
- Start date
I mean, UNC fans aren't trying to get the last word any more than the people responding to everything they say.
I think most UNC fans have admitted the academic stuff hurt the academic side of the university. It didn't have any lasting impact other than random fans having another reason to dislike a school they disliked anyway though. However, that really has little to do with athletics and if the people who are upset about the outcome of it all (and they are upset about it) would understand that there would be little reason for any of this stuff to continue to take place.
I think most UNC fans have admitted the academic stuff hurt the academic side of the university. It didn't have any lasting impact other than random fans having another reason to dislike a school they disliked anyway though. However, that really has little to do with athletics and if the people who are upset about the outcome of it all (and they are upset about it) would understand that there would be little reason for any of this stuff to continue to take place.
Do you have some metric that you are using to qualify “tarnished reputation” or is this just opinion?
How is reputation ever anything but opinion?
Will you ever again be able to tout UNC athletes as scholar-athletes or refer to the self-aggrandizing "Carolina way" in mixed company w/o challenge? I doubt it.
Duke fans will have to deal w/ snide comments about Corey Maggette, Duhon's mom, and Lance Thomas forever. It's not our fault your albatross weighs so much more.
It really doesn't though. I don't think many are overly concerned about anyone challenging us on it tbh, especially in real life were people in general aren't going to say anything. Plus, our position is pretty strong, just like Duke's when it comes to Thomas. It may annoy you when people bring it up but doubt it really bothers you terribly.
Honestly, the average fan could give two shits about what went down at Carolina. It's just the yahoos around here.
The mildness of the annoyance is b/c we have rock solid rebuttals w/ Maggette & Duhon's situations, and b/c Thomas is a single person.
The strength of your position hinges entirely on jurisdiction. It wasn't strictly about athletes, so the NCAA couldn't really do anything. It is forever a shameful episode for the University, which is a far bigger deal, not that it matters for non-alum fans.
I'm not suggesting it wakes you up in a cold sweat or causes you to miss more 2-foot puts than you already do, but I dare say most of the long-time regulars here do a lot more in-depth, sustained discussion of basketball here than in so-called "real life," so dismissing it as something just the yahoos around here care about is sort of like saying your kid is in daycare only Monday through Friday.
The immature, cry-baby tone of most UNC apologists is evidence that y'all really haven't come to grips w/ the new normal regarding how your team will forever be perceived from now on. Ask UK fans if they still hear about their scandal from the '80s, or if Cal still has to deal w/ sniping from his vacated FFs. Nothing really stuck to Cal, either, and we're approaching a decade since the Memphis scandal, nearly 30 years since their program-wide scandal. Ask UK fans if that's water under the bridge as far as critics are concerned.
Y'all are still in year one of escaping a highly suspicious and unethical situation unscathed. You're all going to die of dehydration if you keep sweating and crying over every verbal asterisk you'll be dealing w/ for the rest of your lives.
Academic reputation can be measured to some degree by rankings and grant money. Carolina has had no decline in either.
And Im pretty sure neither I nor any Carolina alums that i know ever spoke of scholar athletes or The Carolina Way. So nothing to worry about there, but dont let me stop you from chasing windmills.
We did however speak of plenty of Dukies being dooshbags and I would like to take a moment and thank you for reinforcing our beliefs.
UNC fans don’t respond any differently than Duke fans do whenever Maggete or Thomas are mentioned and that was years ago. There are Duke posters who still get worked up at the slightest mention of either so I think your take here contrasting the situations is just incorrect. I think it is reasonable for both to comment. It is silly to exaggerate those responses so differently.
You're trying to objectively quantify something that is legitimately subjective. No one is talking about crashing an alumni function w/ homemade signs. We're talking about the intersection of sports and academics and how that looks publicly.
The Carolina Way is not just a well-known book title by DES, which is not to say it's an oft repeated phrase among alum. It's absolutely an accurate, self-coined label describing the high standards of Carolina basketball culture. That is now scoffed at like never before. N&O columnist and die-hard Tar Heel Dennis Rogers wrote in 2015 that " ...'The Carolina Way' is alive and well." I don't pretend to be able to out-debate so accomplished and eloquent a journalist as Rogers, but you don't write that article in the first place unless there has been some challenge to it worth addressing.
Calling someone a d-bag over their calm, respectful, accurate, and reasonable statements supporting a dissenting position is an example of what I said about the childish tone present in so many UNC fans' rhetoric.
You would refer to individual posters anecdotally as a means of denying that the response to situations involving single players from 1999 and 2010 is different from the response to a years-long NCAA investigation concluding less than a year ago.
The situations are so incredibly different in scope and time frame the default is that there are tremendous differences between how fans as a whole react to them. Equivocating them is ridiculous.
It's your opinion that our so called albatross weighs more. It's been said over and over again that we don't care how you view us. Just like you don't care what we say about the Duke drama with Thomas, Maggette and Duhon. It's quite simple when you look at it but it's obviously something you haven't grasped.
There's no question a suspicion about an entire program and an entire academic program is bigger than suspicions about single players. That's not opinion in the slightest.
What I have grasped entirely is the out-of-control emotion inherent to so many UNC defenses, most notably from you and now this 71 guy. You're resorting to insulting me on a personal level despite my comments being extremely tame. I don't agree w/ coryfly, either, but follow his lead if you want to come across as remotely logical and reasonable. Until then, I don't care how loudly you claim you're not rustled; the immature, emotionally compromised nature of your responses says otherwise.
Not insulting you, just telling you like it is. If you don't agree with what we said that's on you.
One could say if the Duke case is even less then the fact their reactions are in any way equal make you guys even more sensitive. After all this time you should be able to just laugh it off or ignore it. One could also make the argument that if the UNC situation was more egregious (academically it was far worse so from a big picture standpoint I understand) then the blowback from others should be more as well of course. I get that.
The fact that the UNC case is so recent should undoubtedly lend itself to more critique from other fans but also more defense from UNC guys. It is the lack of understanding and flat out twisting of the truth that most UNC fans take issue with though. After hearing about it on here for years it is reasonable for us to have a little kickback though since it is so fresh. All depends on how you look at it I guess. There have been plenty of instances where we have ignored it and others where we have poked fun ourselves.
I think it is reasonable to expect a response (some reasonable and some full of some irritation) from both on a message board where going back and forth is kind of what we do.
All that's just fine, cory. I'm getting brushback here over the very idea that y'all should get used to this as the new normal. I haven't said the first thing about the allegations themselves, but you have fellow Tar Heels here acting like 3rd graders toward me.
You’re getting brushback because our opinions differ and we should feel a certain way on what happened. If you’re that sensitive then maybe you shouldn’t post on any forum. As for the 3rd grader comment, can you say rustled much?
I have a serious question for the UNC defenders - did you actually graduate from UNC or just support them as your favorite team?
I live in Raleigh and am friends with quite a few UNC grads and none (as in zero) of them take the same aggressively defensive position which happens here. They usually avoid the subject and when pressed basically admit UNC won a game of chicken with the NCAA. None of them will state UNC didn't do anything wrong.
Enjoy your title and your question isn’t a serious one. If you wanna discuss it here we will oblige you.
My question was absolutely a serious one. Why not just answer the question? Are you are are you not a graduate of UNC? I am genuinely curious and it has nothing to do with Villanova winning the title Monday night (which I must admit was pretty awesome).
I've lived in the Triangle since 1988 - I know very well that most people who live here are fans of either UNC, NC State or Duke even though many didn't attend the school they pull for. Rooting for one of the three schools is part of the social fabric of this area much like college sports are in many places in the south and midwest, particularly where there isn't a major pro sports presence.
If you are simply a fan of UNC basketball or UNC athletics then i can see why the academic fraud topic might not have the same meaning that it does to someone who graduated from UNC. My sample size is small - three people I know well enough to poke at them plus my wife who got her MBA from UNC.
One guy I know flat out told me he was stunned nothing happened but was happy and just wanted to move on. His last comment to me was something to the effect "yeah, I think we got away with one" or something similar to that. He would simply rather not talk about it all and I don't press the issue - he finds the topic embarrassing as a UNC grad. If I were a UNC grad, I don't think I would be gloating about it either. I would simply prefer not to engage which is exactly the behavior I have seen from the few UNC grads I know and see regularly.
Apparently if you're a 1-seed, you have to beat a 16-seed to win a title.
I think most people were upset what went down academically. That has nothing to do with getting away with anything though. They didn't. They were put on probation and fixed their issues. I doubt that is what you are trying to get at though. I feel like maybe you are trying to make it something regarding athletics, which Awill probably does as well. I doubt you truly know any UNC fans who feel like they got away with one in that regard. If that isn't what you mean, then I'm not sure some of what you are saying makes a lot of sense tbh and those UNC fans you seem to know are making strange comments that don't make sense either.
My comment about "getting away with one" was absolutely related to athletics. It was the entire context of the conversation. That said, when I see the guy again, I will explicitly ask him again. It has been a while since we discussed it. It was about a week or two after the NCAA findings. As I stated previously it wasn't a subject he particularly wanted to talk about and I didn't press it.
So far none of the UNC defenders in this thread has actually answered the question I asked. It is a very simple yes/no question: Did you graduate from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill?
Last edited:
Nope. Most, including UNC fans,understand they got off via a technicality. To gloat about that is well, kind of silly TBH. But on the other hand, they(UNC fans) are right------They were exonerated. Albeit a technicality.Winking
Agree 110% with both bolded statements. MOF,I'd love for someone to organize a meet/greet. THink it would be cool as fvck, TBH.
I'll be in Indianapolis for the Duke/UK game, anyone feel free to stop by and drink 1-20 beers. Haven't missed this matchup since it started in 2012. I will be with a UK alumn and my wife who is a UK "fan" but couldn't name a player in the starting 5.
I’m pretty ok with everything.
Maybe this isn’t the right thread, but what are your thoughts on Dean Smith the man, not the coach?
I think he was a great man and coach. I pulled against him and looked for angles to be critical of him, but at the end of the day I respect the heck out of him.
Let's be honest, there are only two programs that are fully invested in the OAD program. Kentucky has made it to the Elite 8 in 6 out 9 years with Cal. That's pretty solid.
K has had many OADS, but only TWICE has a Duke team had 2 OAD in the top 5 for minutes on the team - 2015 and 2018. In other words, 8 out of 11 times have Kentucky and Duke made it to the Elite 8 with multiple OAD talent in the starting lineup. Those are pretty freaking good averages. Sign me up for another, please!
K has had many OADS, but only TWICE has a Duke team had 2 OAD in the top 5 for minutes on the team - 2015 and 2018. In other words, 8 out of 11 times have Kentucky and Duke made it to the Elite 8 with multiple OAD talent in the starting lineup. Those are pretty freaking good averages. Sign me up for another, please!
I would expand the criteria to include 2017, when Duke had 3 OADs, regardless of their minutes. 8 out of 12 is still really good.
In certain ways, we've mistaken the individual talent concentrated in the freshman classes year after year as a barometer for how good their teams will be. Our expectations are out of whack.
OAD era, FF teams:
'07- tOSU (Oden, Conley, Cook)
'08- _______ (Rose), UCLA (Love)
'09- none
'10- none (though UK had several in the E8)
'11- UK (Knight)
'12- UK (Davis, MKG, Teague)
'13- none
'14- UK (Randle, Young)
'15- Duke (Okafor, Winslow, Jones), UK (KAT, Lyles, Booker)
'16- SU (Richardson)
'17- UNC (Bradley), Gonzaga (Collins)
'18- none (projected)
I'd say 7 of those teams were freshman-dominant, whether several players or a single dominant player.
(Edited: I missed a couple. Thanks, dukedevilz!)
Last edited:
Daequon Cook ('07 Ohio State) and Zach Collins ('17 Gonzaga) were also OAD.
