What an azz beating. Where is this Baylor team ranking wise?
- Thread starter KStateFootball82
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Runner-up, what about Illinois squad that lost to UNC? That was a great Illinois team.
also feel only fitting big 12 breaks the natty droughts in both sports during covid. That’s good irony for a league that almost disbanded 10 years ago to the day
baylor first b-ball since 2008 KU
OU would be first football since 2005 Texas
heck maybe tcu, Texas or tech get baseball. All 3 are top 10. Also 2005 Texas
What about them? I was talking about honorable mention teams that were left off of my top 25 list. I have '05 Illinois ranked at #15.
We played UK 2012 a pretty good game in the final four but they pulled away in the end.
Peyton Siva of all people hit a three (he was a terrible outside shooter) to either tie it or bring us within one with under 10 mins to go or so, then Darius Miller matched with a 3 of his own on UKs next possession and they never looked back from there iirc. They led all game, but it wasn’t hardly a blowout like Baylor did to Houston.
Not saying Baylor>2012 uk by any means, just adding something to the discussion. I also think 09-10 uk belongs on the list regardless of their upset at the hands of wvu.
Peyton Siva of all people hit a three (he was a terrible outside shooter) to either tie it or bring us within one with under 10 mins to go or so, then Darius Miller matched with a 3 of his own on UKs next possession and they never looked back from there iirc. They led all game, but it wasn’t hardly a blowout like Baylor did to Houston.
Not saying Baylor>2012 uk by any means, just adding something to the discussion. I also think 09-10 uk belongs on the list regardless of their upset at the hands of wvu.
Ohio State had the best player on the floor. Wouldn't really say you dominated/cruised that game. Greg Oden with one hand wrecked Horford/Noah.
Florida was next on my list for what it's worth. Not as high on them as most, even if finishing off back to back titles was extremely impressive.
Had Florida not lost so many regular season games both years, 5, they would rank high all time. Too many great undefeated and 1-2 loss greats.
1a Baylor 2021
1b Baylor 2020
after that zfg
1b Baylor 2020
after that zfg
Meh. When the games counted in the SEC tourney and the NCAA tourney they dominated. Perfectly balanced team and with excellent depth.
Florida dominated Ohio state twice. Don’t look at the final score. 10+ lead at half and 14 pt lead with about a minute left (won by 9). They played earlier in the year too and beat them by 20+. UCLA same story. Neither was ever in doubt.
Already mentioned they were a great Tourney team. Historically they fall off vs great teams that dominated all year and Tourney. One ranking I saw SI?, had one UF championship team ranked in the 30’s and the other in the 50’s. That’s historically. Think that’s low, but that’s what their take was.
They were freakishly dominant because they never played anybody. If they played in a normal major conference, they would have lost a few games. IMO, it was obvious they weren't as good as Baylor, and I personally believe '20 KU was every bit as good as this year's Baylor team, and they aren't exactly on that list.
As I mentioned prior, Gonzaga's poor defense makes them too lopsided of a team to be an all time(this century) type of team.
'15 Kentucky definitely makes sense. They may actually be the best team on that list, even though they didn't win it all.
They beat a 2 seed by 11 points
They beat a 3 seed by 12 points
They beat another 3 seed by 5 points
They beat a 4 seed by 23 points
They beat a 5 seed by 18 points
They beat a 6 seed by 19 points
They beat another 6 seed by 17, 11, and 10 points
They beat an 8 seed by 16 points
They won 10 games against teams that were an 8 seed or higher, by an average of 14.2 points. If you count the NCAAT games, they were 12-1 in Quad 1 games. The "weak schedule" is not a valid argument.
No argument from me that Gonzaga is/was a good team, But Baylor is/was a much more dominant team that we all saw on Monday night.
Baylor played their A game and Gonzaga wasn't ready for it. Don't think them losing changes how good they were other than moving them to the long list of great teams that didn't cut down the nets.
Better team won.
It's not like Baylor put up flukey numbers. They shot at about their average from three and well below their average overall. Gonzaga shot 51%.
2010 UK vs 2015 UK who you got? I feel like 2010 UK always gets left out but they were nasty.
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Honestly I would have to look at ‘18 Nova. Off the top of my head I would say no. However, I recall little about Nova.
2015 UK for sure. 2010 was very good, national title worthy for sure. But they weren't unbeatable by any means. I would compare them to 2020 KU. Not saying 2010 UK isn't better, but I think they're comparable teams and '20 KU could take them on and maybe beat them if they played.
2015 UK though was just dominant on another level. It was so difficult to score on them. When I think of last year's KU team, I don't see them having much of a chance at all. Maybe they could keep it respectable(within 10), but I don't think there's any way they'd win that matchup unless they just shot extremely well, i.e. played out of their minds and hit tough shots.
IMO, 2015 UK is one of the top teams of all time that didn't win the title. I'd put them right up there with '97 KU, '99 DUKE, and '91 UNLV as far as greatest teams that didn't win it all.
They beat a 2 seed by 11 points: I think we've all determined that Iowa was overrated.
They beat a 3 seed by 12 points: I think we've all determined that KU was overrated.
They beat another 3 seed by 5 points: This was actually a close game. Likely because WVU is a solid defensive team, and Gonzaga struggles most with teams that play good defense. They can outscore anybody otherwise.
They beat a 4 seed by 23 points: Virginia? Virginia was trash.
They beat a 5 seed by 18 points: Creighton? Again, Creighton is a finesse team that doesn't play defense. That overrated KU team beat them as well.
They beat a 6 seed by 19 points: This one is actually an impressive win. Though USC was off that night. USC is a very inconsistent team. If they had brought the same offensive performance they brought against KU and Oregon, they could have won that game. But that was kind of their thing. Play lights out for 2 or 3 games then can't hit a shot to save their lives.
They beat another 6 seed by 17, 11, and 10 points: BYU. A fundamental team that can beat average teams, but they don't have the talent to hang with the more athletic teams. Not a great team.
They beat an 8 seed by 16 points: Probably the most impressive win on here other than the USC win. But again, a 16 point win over an 8 seed is pretty normal for a 1 seed. That's kind of how those games usually go. The 8 seed hangs around for 30 minutes, then runs out of gas late as the 1 seed extends the lead.
But all in all, Gonzaga never played the kind of team(until UCLA) in the tourney that they struggle with. Teams with length that can play solid defense.
Again, I'm not saying that Gonzaga wasn't an excellent team. But power conference teams play those 3 and 4 seed teams several times throughout the conference season, and they play them on the road in hostile environments. If Gonzaga had to do that, they definitely would have had a couple of losses. I don't care if they beat a bunch of mid-level tourney teams on neutral courts. Any of the top teams can do that. To be an all time great you have to play the top teams, several of them, and beat them. They really only played maybe two teams like that, and they lost one of them and escaped by 5 on the other.
WV wasn't very good defensively this year. And I'm not sure why you think that the OU win is Gonzaga's 2nd-most impressive. OU without Harmon isn't a strong team.
But yeah, in retrospect, the USC win is the only one that stands out as really impressive (and USC's coaching in the first half was laughable). The other results are what you'd expect from a top team.
Very good team relative to this year's field, but not as good as Baylor and definitely not historically good.
It's interesting, basically you say everyone noteworthy they played was overrated. You mentioned that the WVU game was close because WVU plays good defense? Are you serious? That statement alone shows you're not totally tuned into the games. WVU is a great offensive team. Their team defensive field goal percentage is ranked 228th in the nation. KenPom has them as the 70th most efficient defense. Also, Suggs missed a HUGE junk of that game with an ankle injury... You're impressed with the USC win, but you downplay it by saying USC didn't play well. Could that perhaps be the same thing that happened in the title game? Zags were clearly pressing. They play fast, but were actually playing too fast to try to catch up. That was their C game, at best. Obviously the defensive pressure caused a part of that, but Zags lost their composure. Also, Kansas beat Baylor, and they won 9 of their last 10 before facing USC. Kansas, as well as Virginia, both had COVID issues in their conference tournaments. That's partly to explain why they weren't as sharp as they usually are.
The teams that Gonzaga beat were ranked in KenPom at: 6, 7, 13, 19, 20, 22. Six of the top 25 KP teams. If you're going to say that everyone Gonzaga beat was a mid-level tournament team, you might as well say the same about Baylor. They defeated exactly zero Sweet 16 teams in the regular season. See how that works? Teams may perform well in the regular season, but it's not all that uncommon to have a bad showing in a single-elimination tournament. Imagine if the NBA was like that? Lakers would have lost last year in the 1st Round.
And no, not any team can beat tournament teams like Gonzaga did. Please, tell me all the teams that had a greater winning percentage in Quad 1 games than Gonzaga's 12-1 record? Here are the records of the top 8 seeds + other schools that made the Elite 8. Now, I recognize that one of Baylor's losses came shortly after a COVID pause, so I can at least concede that Baylor's total body of work is more impressive. But, after them has anyone shown more consistency? The answer is 100% no.
Quad 1 Records
Gonzaga: 12-1, 92.3%
Baylor: 13-2, 86.7%
Michigan: 10-4, 71.4%
Houston: 5-2, 71.4%
Illinois: 12-6, 66.7%
Alabama: 9-5, 64.3%
Arkansas: 7-5, 58.3%
Oregon State: 8-6, 57.1%
Ohio State: 9-7, 56.3%
USC: 6-5, 54.5%
Iowa: 8-7, 53.3%
UCLA: 5-6, 45.4%
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WVU wasn't the defensive team that they were in the past. But they were a better defensive team earlier in the season, before Tshiebwe transferred out. And they played good defense in that game until about halfway through the 2nd half, approximately when Tshiebwe fouled out.
Yes, when a team loses its best defender and rebounder, they're going to give up more points.
Again, during the regular season, the best teams Gonzaga played were KU, Iowa, and WVU(sorry Virginia). They beat all 3, as they should have. As any top team would. The difference between them and other top teams, is those other top teams(aka Baylor) play teams at that level every single week. And they play them on the road, in tough environments, not on neutral courts.
The rest of those wins came against mid-major teams that have skewed kenpom ratings because they have a ton of wins against mediocre competition. BYU would have had 10 conference losses if they played in the Big XII, Big 10, PAC 10, etc. Same with Creighton. Gonzaga beat them as a very good team should beat them. Then there's an Oklahoma team which was the 7th best team in the Big XII, and missing one of their better players. Sorry. Not an impressive win. Gonzaga beat them about how they should have beat them.
The only impressive tourney win Gonzaga had, was the one over USC, but they were missing wide open looks that they were hitting with ease against KU and Oregon, so part of that was catching them on the right night.
Then they got to the Final Four and showed what happens when they face teams with upper tier athleticism.
To be fair to Gonzaga though, basketball was down across the board this year. The only two really good teams were Baylor and Gonzaga. I mean, if KU and Iowa can get 2 and 3 seeds in this year's tourney, that shows how bad the field was this year. Those are not two very good teams. They'd be 5 and 6 seeds most years. Gonzaga is what they are..... a very good team that didn't really play any tough teams all year until Monday night and they got stomped. KU 2020 was on the same level as Baylor's team this year. Hell, I'd put Baylor 2020 over Gonzaga 2021.
As for Quad 1 wins, that's more impressive when you play teams on the upper end of that range and play them on the road, and in tough environments. The only reason why Baylor's results in that category aren't as good, is because they missed a lot of games due to COVID and took a while to get rid of the rust when they came back. If they never have those COVID issues, they might not have lost a game. MAYBE they still lose in AFH, because KU played exceptionally well in that game, but that's also kind of the point. Gonzaga didn't have to play in AFH. They didn't have to play in WACO. They didn't have to play @ Florida State or @ Ohio State, or in anything closely resembling a hostile environment. They played some above average teams on neutral courts, and a whole lot of really really really bad teams on the road and at home. So I'm not going to think of them as this elite team because they did what they were supposed to do the first two weekends of the tournament. They didn't look very good at all the 3rd weekend of the tourney did they? They needed a miracle near halfcourt banked in 3 to beat a 10 loss team, and got stomped by 18 in the title game. In both games they looked like they were struggling with the athleticism of their opponents, something they weren't used to. Maybe if they'd played more athletic teams on a weekly basis during the season, they wouldn't have looked like they got hit in the mouth when they stepped on the court with Baylor.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Gonzaga is too unbalanced to be on any all time list. Their offense could definitely be in contention for being one of the all time best offenses. But they were not a good defensive team at all. You can't be that poor on one end of the court and be in contention for one of the best teams of the century. Gotta have balance.
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Come on. Zags shot close to 57% from 2 on WVU. Not exactly stifling defense. And FWIW, WVU wasn't exactly killing it on offense. Below 38% from the field, and just north of 40% on 2-pointers. Suggs got hurt in the middle of the first half and wasn't a major factor rest of the way; only took 6 shots. Deficit most likely would have been much higher if he had his normal usage rate.
Funny, you continue to make excuses for other schools. But, continue to lay into Gonzaga for one bad performance. I'll concede Baylor is a better team. Just think you're a little quick to dismiss the totality of Gonzaga's performance on the season. Also, not sure what your hang up is with the Quad 1 games. Let's put this into perspective. Baylor's SOS was 58, while Gonzaga's was 74. Baylor played 15 Quad 1 Games, while Gonzaga played 13. The difference in their schedules isn't as wide as you think it is. Yes, Baylor's is better. But, it's not miles and miles better.
Creighton loses by 1 at AFH against a KU team that went 12-6 in league play - and you're telling me they would have 10 losses? Hot take. Also, the homecourt advantage isn't nearly as large as you're suggesting. Metrics indicate that P6 conference schools have anywhere from a 3.5 - 4 point advantage at home, meaning Zags would have won all the games on the road just the same, if all else is true.
Inaccurate. Here are some of the defensive efficiency numbers for teams in my top 25 list of the century. You gonna tell me that '18 Villanova isn't an all-time great team because of a lack of balance? How about the '09 Carolina team?
Adjusted defensive efficiency per 100 possessions
Virginia '19, 89.2
UConn '04, 89.5
Kentucky '12, 89.6
Illinois '05, 89.6
UNC '05, 89.7
Gonzaga '21, 89.9
Maryland '02, 89.9
Villanova '16, 90.8
Ohio State '11, 91.5
Florida '07, 92.0
Duke '15, 92.0
North Carolina '09, 92.1
UNC '17, 92.5
Villanova '18, 94.0
Wisconsin '15, 95.2
^ And I get that KenPom isn't a perfect system, especially when comparing from year to year. But, when you have the 2nd greatest Efficiency Margin of all-time, I think it's okay to put that team into consideration for elite status.
09 UNC team did as well. They won every tournament game by double digits.
lol ya right. Tech had game won at regulation. Jerome drives and culver collapses instead of staying out on hunter. Give them the layup. Make free throws. Game over.
You guys shouldn’t have gotten past auburn let alone the double dribble heard round the world vs tech
you don’t call that 3 point call with a second left vs auburn. So lucky
Ah, you meant Culver collapses on Jerome. I thought you meant he collapsed in the game, like he didn't show up. Aggressive defense bit them in the butt. That's just stupid on Tech's part.
As for the Auburn game, we had a double digit lead in the second half before refs started helping out Auburn. Auburn got away with a travel before we got away with the double dribble. Plus, Jerome was fouled before the double dribble anyways. Plus, it was the most obvious foul on Guy on the 3. If he doesn't get fouled, he makes the 3.
You sound like Auburn and Virginia Tech fans right now lol
fair. Look. You have the banner hanging. You won. That was a foul.
But what I’m saying is
1) I don’t think they should have called that foul vs auburn with a second left. I HATE those calls even when it’s a neutral game with no skin in it for me.
2) culver DID collapse to Jerome and UVA won. Fair and square. Just saying he wasn’t being smart for such a stud player there. Easy decision there and he wasn’t thinking clearly. Beard should have told them to stay out on their man.
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