The next top 5 will be interesting

[LetsGoDuke301]

Who exactly has duke beaten? Auburn their best win? I don’t understand why they would be above Tennessee or Gonzaga or Michigan or Virginia. Surely they can’t jump Kansas again? I’d have duke 6

There are arguments to be made on a lot of different rankings. Mainly, is it fair to have Duke ranked ahead of Gonzaga considering that Gonzaga beat Duke? Is it fair to have Gonzaga ranked ahead of Tennessee considering that Tennessee beat Gonzaga? Is it fair to have anyone other than Kansas ranked number 1 seeing how that's how they started the season and they haven't lost? Also having beaten the team that beat Gonzaga who skipped ahead of Kansas in the rankings? Is it fair to drop Duke out of the top 5 when they have been solid at number 3 and have been beating teams handily?

At this point, rankings don't matter, just a conversation piece IMO. But for the sake of playing along. I would go.

Kansas
Duke
Virginia
Michigan
Gonzaga*
Tennessee*

* interchangeable

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Duke is clearly the best team in the country. I don't think any team in the nation is within 5 of them on a neutral court. If or when they learn to shot the rock from range then march will be as elementary a competition as we have seen since probably UCLA in the 70s.

What have you seen out of the first half of the last two games that suggests Duke would be favored by at least 5 points against any other team in the country?

Duke is clearly beatable and is not that far ahead of the field as far as the best team. If they are ahead of the field.

 

[della]

There are arguments to be made on a lot of different rankings. Mainly, is it fair to have Duke ranked ahead of Gonzaga considering that Gonzaga beat Duke? Is it fair to have Gonzaga ranked ahead of Tennessee considering that Tennessee beat Gonzaga? Is it fair to have anyone other than Kansas ranked number 1 seeing how that's how they started the season and they haven't lost? Also having beaten the team that beat Gonzaga who skipped ahead of Kansas in the rankings? Is it fair to drop Duke out of the top 5 when they have been solid at number 3 and have been beating teams handily?

At this point, rankings don't matter, just a conversation piece IMO. But for the sake of playing along. I would go.

Kansas
Duke
Virginia
Michigan
Gonzaga*
Tennessee*

* interchangeable

I don't see the logic of Duke #2. How do you place a once beaten team ahead of a once beaten team and another once beaten team that beat them?
Tennessee strengthened the case for Kansas #1 and Kentucky has weakened Duke's big win over them with later performances.
One thing, Nevada schedule prevents them from being in the top 5.IMO
However, you're right, it doesn't matter.

 

[tw3301]

I don't see the logic of Duke #2. How do you place a once beaten team ahead of a once beaten team and another once beaten team that beat them?
Tennessee strengthened the case for Kansas #1 and Kentucky has weakened Duke's big win over them with later performances.
One thing, Nevada schedule prevents them from being in the top 5.IMO
However, you're right, it doesn't matter.

You're trying to use the transitive property and that doesn't work. For example if Kentucky beats Tennessee by 5 do we now say Duke is 39 points better than Tennessee? And is Tennessee 4 points better than Duke because they beat Gonzaga? It just doesn't work that way and like everyone has alluded to... It doesn't really matter.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

I don't see the logic of Duke #2. How do you place a once beaten team ahead of a once beaten team and another once beaten team that beat them?
Tennessee strengthened the case for Kansas #1 and Kentucky has weakened Duke's big win over them with later performances.
One thing, Nevada schedule prevents them from being in the top 5.IMO
However, you're right, it doesn't matter.

My only logic is that Duke was number 3. Haven't lost. And a team ahead of them did lose. That's my argument and I gave examples of other arguments. If Michigan wasn't ranked ahead of them last week, what has changed this week to make their argument about being ranked ahead of Duke? Should Duke fall back to make room for Tennessee to be ranked ahead of them? I am not using blind homerism as a Duke fan, just saying that there are too many things to consider and they will all contradict themselves in the end.

 

[WeAreDePaul]

I understand what you're saying, but I just can't see KU being jumped for a 3rd time.

I hear that and was thinking about that, but having to go to OT to beat New Mexico State at home is enough of a stumble to justify the leap frogging by Michigan.

 

[WeAreDePaul]

Who exactly has duke beaten? Auburn their best win? I don’t understand why they would be above Tennessee or Gonzaga or Michigan or Virginia. Surely they can’t jump Kansas again? I’d have duke 6

that's a top 10 win on a neutral court. Do Michigan and Virginia have wins that good? No they don't. And Duke's loss is to an elite team on a neutral court. They're right there with all of those teams you listed, arguably better than some and worse than others but all are pretty interchangeable.

 

[della]

My only logic is that Duke was number 3. Haven't lost. And a team ahead of them did lose. That's my argument and I gave examples of other arguments. If Michigan wasn't ranked ahead of them last week, what has changed this week to make their argument about being ranked ahead of Duke? Should Duke fall back to make room for Tennessee to be ranked ahead of them? I am not using blind homerism as a Duke fan, just saying that there are too many things to consider and they will all contradict themselves in the end.

Haven't lost is no a reason for jumping in the polls. The Zags jumped Kansas by beating Duke and Kansas didn't lose. Gonzaga lost, but that doesn't erase away their win over Duke. One can make the argument for undefeated teams (assuming a strong resume), but not one loss teams that were not blown out or beaten by a perceived weak opponent.
However, I didn't take your post as "homer". I just engaged the logic behind it.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Haven't lost is no a reason for jumping in the polls. The Zags jumped Kansas by beating Duke and Kansas didn't lose. Gonzaga lost, but that doesn't erase away their win over Duke. One can make the argument for undefeated teams (assuming a strong resume), but not one loss teams that were not blown out or beaten by a perceived weak opponent.
However, I didn't take your post as "homer". I just engaged the logic behind it.

Eh, I wouldn't consider moving up one position as jumping in the polls. Duke jumped Kansas after the first week because the pollsters reacted to a one game example. I don't feel like they should have. I also don't think that Gonzaga should have jumped over Kansas. Duke was never going to be as good as they have been hyped up to be after the Kentucky game. I think the pollsters overreacted when they made Gonzaga the number one team. They were ridiculous in the first half and Duke was still able to keep it a single digit deficit at the half. And then come within a couple of plays of winning or taking it to overtime. Both teams are really good, but not at the level the talking heads tried to build them up to be.

I don't hate your list. But I just can't see Tennessee moving up to 3rd, Duke falling two positions without having lost and Virginia not being in the top 5 as an undefeated team.

 

[della]

You're trying to use the transitive property and that doesn't work. For example if Kentucky beats Tennessee by 5 do we now say Duke is 39 points better than Tennessee? And is Tennessee 4 points better than Duke because they beat Gonzaga? It just doesn't work that way and like everyone has alluded to... It doesn't really matter.

My issue comes with who you lost to. Your example fails to recognize that UK has bad losses. Gonzaga and Tennessee do not.

 

[della]

Eh, I wouldn't consider moving up one position as jumping in the polls. Duke jumped Kansas after the first week because the pollsters reacted to a one game example. I don't feel like they should have. I also don't think that Gonzaga should have jumped over Kansas. Duke was never going to be as good as they have been hyped up to be after the Kentucky game. I think the pollsters overreacted when they made Gonzaga the number one team. They were ridiculous in the first half and Duke was still able to keep it a single digit deficit at the half. And then come within a couple of plays of winning or taking it to overtime. Both teams are really good, but not at the level the talking heads tried to build them up to be.

I don't hate your list. But I just can't see Tennessee moving up to 3rd, Duke falling two positions without having lost and Virginia not being in the top 5 as an undefeated team.

The team that beat you lost and that weakens Duke's position at #3.
Tennessee has played an elite schedule so far. Who has Virginia or Nevada played?
Would put an undefeated UCF in the CFB Playoffs too? I wouldn't.

 

[jhmossy]

The team that beat you lost and that weakens Duke's position at #3.
Tennessee has played an elite schedule so far. Who has Virginia or Nevada played?
Would put an undefeated UCF in the CFB Playoffs too? I wouldn't.

UVA's schedule has been weak so far which is honestly why I have no problem if we are ranked below a few 1-loss teams. We have a neutral court win over Wisconsin and a road win at Maryland (both Kenpom top 30 teams). We've also beaten Dayton (neutral) and VCU at home (both Kenpom top 100 teams). The rest of the schedule has been trash. However, we play in the ACC so I'm not really too worried about being tested the rest of the year.

 

[WeAreDePaul]

Tennessee has played an elite schedule so far. Who has Virginia or Nevada played?
Would put an undefeated UCF in the CFB Playoffs too? I wouldn't.

I would put Tennessee above Nevada, but below Virginia. Virginia's schedule has been weak, but they've run through it and so far look very much the part of a top 5 team. Tennessee has a better resume and if you want to put them ahead of Virginia I wouldn't fault you, but I also won't fault the people who have Virginia ahead.

and if someone has Nevada ahead of Tennessee based on undefeated plus eye test I wouldn't fault them either.

At this point the top 7 are all almost interchangeable. If someone voted Nevada #1 in the polls they would have every right to do so. Pretty much the only team I couldn't justify at #1 this week would be Gonzaga since they lost this voting period.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Tennessee has played an elite schedule so far. Who has Virginia or Nevada played?
Would put an undefeated UCF in the CFB Playoffs too? I wouldn't.

I am not sold on Nevada, definitely have no issues with them being outside of the top 6. Or even 7. Put Auburn ahead of them too. You guys look good. Personally, if they end up ranked ahead of Duke today it will not bother me. Like I said, there are many different arguments to be made and each one has relevance IMO. I am just sticking to my argument that Kansas should have been the number one team this whole time due to the fact that they have not lost and shouldn't have been punished for not winning a game by 34 points against Kentucky or beating the team that beat Kentucky by 34 points. Duke was ranked 3rd, and one of the two teams that were ranked ahead of them lost. Since losing to Gonzaga, Duke's closest game and the only game under 30 points was a 21 point win against Indiana. Sure, we can complain about their competition, but they're beating the teams they are supposed to with ease. They have done nothing to warrant falling back in the rankings.

 

[WeAreDePaul]

I am not sold on Nevada, definitely have no issues with them being outside of the top 6. Or even 7. Put Auburn ahead of them too. You guys look good. Personally, if they end up ranked ahead of Duke today it will not bother me. Like I said, there are many different arguments to be made and each one has relevance IMO. I am just sticking to my argument that Kansas should have been the number one team this whole time due to the fact that they have not lost and shouldn't have been punished for not winning a game by 34 points against Kentucky or beating the team that beat Kentucky by 34 points. Duke was ranked 3rd, and one of the two teams that were ranked ahead of them lost. Since losing to Gonzaga, Duke's closest game and the only game under 30 points was a 21 point win against Indiana. Sure, we can complain about their competition, but they're beating the teams they are supposed to with ease. They have done nothing to warrant falling back in the rankings.

So you don't have a problem elevating Kansas to #1 after needing OT to beat New Mexico State at home this weekend? I can't do it.

Also the loss of Azubuke. Just can't put them at #1 in my ranking.

 

[della]

UVA's schedule has been weak so far which is honestly why I have no problem if we are ranked below a few 1-loss teams. We have a neutral court win over Wisconsin and a road win at Maryland (both Kenpom top 30 teams). We've also beaten Dayton (neutral) and VCU at home (both Kenpom top 100 teams). The rest of the schedule has been trash. However, we play in the ACC so I'm not really too worried about being tested the rest of the year.

True enough...

 

[della]

I am not sold on Nevada, definitely have no issues with them being outside of the top 6. Or even 7. Put Auburn ahead of them too. You guys look good. Personally, if they end up ranked ahead of Duke today it will not bother me. Like I said, there are many different arguments to be made and each one has relevance IMO. I am just sticking to my argument that Kansas should have been the number one team this whole time due to the fact that they have not lost and shouldn't have been punished for not winning a game by 34 points against Kentucky or beating the team that beat Kentucky by 34 points. Duke was ranked 3rd, and one of the two teams that were ranked ahead of them lost. Since losing to Gonzaga, Duke's closest game and the only game under 30 points was a 21 point win against Indiana. Sure, we can complain about their competition, but they're beating the teams they are supposed to with ease. They have done nothing to warrant falling back in the rankings.

Except to Tennessee and Gonzaga, IMO Gonzga losing to Tennessee changes the dynamics of Duke's losing to Gonzaga.

Regardless, I know Duke will end up a #1 or at the worst a #2 seed. I hope the Vols can end that high too.

 

[Quavarius]

Who exactly has duke beaten? Auburn their best win? I don’t understand why they would be above Tennessee or Gonzaga or Michigan or Virginia. Surely they can’t jump Kansas again? I’d have duke 6

Auburn, Kentucky and now Indiana is ranked 25th so add them to the ranked teams Duke has beaten. Duke also plays undefeated Texas Tech next week, who is currently ranked 11th.

Could be the fourth Top 10 opponent Duke has faced in OOC (if they move up one spot before next Thursday).

I don’t know about those teams and their metrics, but I’m sure they also rank high on other rankings as well.

 

[ExitFlagger]

So you don't have a problem elevating Kansas to #1 after needing OT to beat New Mexico State at home this weekend? I can't do it.

Also the loss of Azubuke. Just can't put them at #1 in my ranking.

So they deserve to be jumped for the third time because one of their star players will be out a few weeks?

 

[toonces11]

So they deserve to be jumped for the third time because one of their star players will be out a few weeks?

Is it true Kansas has the #1 strength of schedule so far and we have nova and asu in the next two games? The next 3 games will be interesting bc we could be looking at 1-2 if we don’t evolve.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Is it true Kansas has the #1 strength of schedule so far and we have nova and asu in the next two games? The next 3 games will be interesting bc we could be looking at 1-2 if we don’t evolve.

If it's #1, that makes it even more laughable that people were arguing for them to be jumped for the third time. Granted, they've looked mediocre at times, but they beat #3 and #9 and looked solid doing it.

They look like a different team vs top opponents.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Duke is clearly the best team in the country. I don't think any team in the nation is within 5 of them on a neutral court. If or when they learn to shot the rock from range then march will be as elementary a competition as we have seen since probably UCLA in the 70s.

Neutral court? Disagree.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

If it's #1, that makes it even more laughable that people were arguing for them to be jumped for the third time. Granted, they've looked mediocre at times, but they beat #3 and #9 and looked solid doing it.

They look like a different team vs top opponents.

Kansas and Michigan should be 1 and 2. Both undefeated with nice win.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

Kansas and Michigan should be 1 and 2. Both undefeated with nice win.

Michigan just doesn't have the appeal in the popularity contest which is the AP voting.

 

[hailtoyourvictor]

Michigan just doesn't have the appeal in the popularity contest which is the AP voting.

It’s true though. AP has underrated Michigan preseason 3 straight years now.

 

[Danger 35 Zone]

Except to Tennessee and Gonzaga, IMO Gonzga losing to Tennessee changes the dynamics of Duke's losing to Gonzaga.

Regardless, I know Duke will end up a #1 or at the worst a #2 seed. I hope the Vols can end that high too.

Maybe it has to do with Duke being being 3-1 against the top 25 whereas Tennessee's elite schedule puts them at 1-1 vs Top 25.

Regardless still a lot of season left, it will work itself out.

 

[della]

Maybe it has to do with Duke being being 3-1 against the top 25 whereas Tennessee's elite schedule puts them at 1-1 vs Top 25.

Regardless still a lot of season left, it will work itself out.

Maybe, I just put more importance in beating the # 1 team than others would put on beating teams on the outer edges of the top 25.

 

[Quavarius]

Maybe, I just put more importance in beating the # 1 team than others would put on beating teams on the outer edges of the top 25.

Kinda hard for Duke to always play themselves, tho.

3 Top 25 wins > 1 Top 25 win

 

[sgrooms]

Maybe, I just put more importance in beating the # 1 team than others would put on beating teams on the outer edges of the top 25.

So, in your opinion, at what point does volume win out? I'm guessing you would rank a team with 5 top 25 wins (none against the #1 team) ahead of someone with 1 top 25 win (against the #1 team). Is that your hurdle? What about 4 wins? 3 Wins?

 

[della]

Kinda hard for Duke to always play themselves, tho.

3 Top 25 wins > 1 Top 25 win

Beating #1 (Duke slayer) greater then Duke's best win over #8

 

[Quavarius]

Beating #1 (Duke slayer) greater then Duke's best win over #8

Guess you’re in the minority with that one

But I’m glad you guys won! It allowed us to move up again, so thanks!

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Maybe, I just put more importance in beating the # 1 team than others would put on beating teams on the outer edges of the top 25.

I just think that you are going with the formula that puts Tennessee ahead of Duke. Which is fine. That just means that you are a fan of Tennessee. You guys are off to a good start. Being #3 is solid.

 

[sgrooms]

Guess you’re in the minority with that one

But I’m glad you guys won! It allowed us to move up again, so thanks!

She's actually correct. She just changed the argument to be correct. Not a bad strategy.

 

[della]

So, in your opinion, at what point does volume win out? I'm guessing you would rank a team with 5 top 25 wins (none against the #1 team) ahead of someone with 1 top 25 win (against the #1 team). Is that your hurdle? What about 4 wins? 3 Wins?

It would depend on other variables. I don't think beating #20 or #36 have any bearing on the conversation regarding elite. But, we need to tighten up what we are discussing. I think Kansas is the clear #1 at this point.

 

[dukedevilz]

If it's merit-based, I'd say:

1. Michigan
2. Kansas
3. Tennessee
4. Gonzaga
5. Duke
6. Virginia
7. Nevada
8. Auburn
9. Texas Tech
10. Michigan State

If it's based on the eye-test, I'd go with:

1. Michigan
2. Duke
3. Gonzaga (still missing 2 of their top 7 players)
4. Tennessee
5. Kansas
6. Virginia
7. Michigan State
8. Auburn
9. North Carolina
10. Nevada

 

[della]

If it's merit-based, I'd say:

1. Michigan
2. Kansas
3. Tennessee
4. Gonzaga
5. Duke
6. Virginia
7. Nevada
8. Auburn
9. Texas Tech
10. Michigan State

If it's based on the eye-test, I'd go with:

1. Michigan
2. Duke
3. Gonzaga (still missing 2 of their top 7 players)
4. Tennessee
5. Kansas
6. Virginia
7. Michigan State
8. Auburn
9. North Carolina
10. Nevada

How do you come up with Michigan #1 under any test? BTW, Tennessee was without their top shooting guard.

 

[denniden]

If it's merit-based, I'd say:

1. Michigan
2. Kansas
3. Tennessee
4. Gonzaga
5. Duke
6. Virginia
7. Nevada
8. Auburn
9. Texas Tech
10. Michigan State

If it's based on the eye-test, I'd go with:

1. Michigan
2. Duke
3. Gonzaga (still missing 2 of their top 7 players)
4. Tennessee
5. Kansas
6. Virginia
7. Michigan State
8. Auburn
9. North Carolina
10. Nevada

Please explain why Duke is ranked 5th in your "merit-based" rankings? Seems like they would be higher on that list if we are talking about merit.

 

[tw3301]

How do you come up with Michigan #1 under any test? BTW, Tennessee was without their top shooting guard.

Michigan has looked more impressive IMO than Tennessee has (and most other teams). I watched the Gonzaga/Tennessee game and both teams looked kinda meh... neither team played great. It's a great win for Tennessee but it could have gone either way and shouldn't catapult UT to #1. Don't be a Homer.

 

[dukedevilz]

How do you come up with Michigan #1 under any test? BTW, Tennessee was without their top shooting guard.

Are you kidding me? Did you see them play UNC, Villanova, or Purdue? Those teams are ranked 15th, 24th, and 31st in the NCAA Net Rankings, respectively. UM won by an average of 21 points in those three games! They should be #1 in every poll in America. Are they beatable? Sure, but no one's resume is even close to Michigan's at this point.

And yes, Lamonte Turner is out. Big loss, no question. But Killian Tillie is a much bigger loss for the Zags. And Crandall was the only really reliable guard the Zags had off the bench.

Please explain why Duke is ranked 5th in your "merit-based" rankings? Seems like they would be higher on that list if we are talking about merit.

Michigan and Kansas are undefeated, both teams have quality wins, too. Gonzaga defeated Duke (both with one loss). The only question would then be Tennessee or Duke. UT defeated the #1 team on a neutral court, albeit with a pro-Gonzaga crowd. They lost a close one in overtime to the current #1 team, Kansas. Merit-based, I suppose you could say anyone of the three teams between Tennessee, Gonzaga, or Duke. Splitting hairs, really. I think Duke has the most talent, however.

 

[della]

Michigan has looked more impressive IMO than Tennessee has (and most other teams). I watched the Gonzaga/Tennessee game and both teams looked kinda meh... neither team played great. It's a great win for Tennessee but it could have gone either way and shouldn't catapult UT to #1. Don't be a Homer.

Don't be an idiot and we got a deal. My pick was Kansas #1.
re: Michigan, it is not hard to look great in a cupcake eating contest, cause cupcakes can't fight back.