OGT: Virginia @ Duke

[GhostOf301]

We UK fans still remember in the first game of the year Duke beat Kentucky by 8 points and the refs really helped Duke out by giving them 23 free throws to UK's 7.

Many non-Duke fans recognize the differentials in calls.

Because FT discrepancies tell the whole story. I thought maybe Duke won a fairly close game by shooting +50% vs UK's -40%. But you're probably right. The 5 more fouls called on Kentucky, including to slow the game down at the end, is likely what caused Kentucky to lose. After all, Duke doesn't win without the refs' help and Kentucky doesn't lose without being screwed by the refs.

 

[jhmossy]

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

K is the one ACC coach who has a pretty substantial winning record vs. Bennett. We've definitely had some heartbreaking losses to them over the years so last night was pretty sweet.

The down year is a combination of losing a lot of players to graduation and the transfer portal and having two pretty meh recruiting classes back to back. Continuity is really important for our defense to be elite. The 2022 class is strong and could be really good if we land 2023 5 star PG London Johnson and he reclassifies. I'm not really too concerned about our trajectory moving forward but the transfer portal and NIL does concern me a bit.

Who did you guys lose are they doing well at new locale?

 

[jhmossy]

Who did you guys lose are they doing well at new locale?

Sam Hauser, Jay Huff, Trey Murphy III, and Tomas Woldetensae all graduated. The first 3 have gotten some minutes in the NBA with the Celtics, Lakers, and Pelicans, respectively.

We lost Casey Morsell (NCSU), Justin McKoy (UNC), and Jabri Abdur-Rahim (Georgia) in the portal. None of them are crushing it at their new places but Morsell and McKoy had multiple years in the program and would have kept the defensive continuity. Abdur-Rahim was one of Bennett's highest rated recruits but it just wasn't the right fit. I still like the transfer additions (Franklin and Gardner) more than the transfer departures but losing 7 players from last year's ACC regular season champ is tough to replace.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Sam Hauser, Jay Huff, Trey Murphy III, and Tomas Woldetensae all graduated. The first 3 have gotten some minutes in the NBA with the Celtics, Lakers, and Pelicans, respectively.

We lost Casey Morsell (NCSU), Justin McKoy (UNC), and Jabri Abdur-Rahim (Georgia) in the portal. None of them are crushing it at their new places but Morsell and McKoy had multiple years in the program and would have kept the defensive continuity. Abdur-Rahim was one of Bennett's highest rated recruits but it just wasn't the right fit. I still like the transfer additions (Franklin and Gardner) more than the transfer departures but losing 7 players from last year's ACC regular season champ is tough to replace.

That's losing a lot.

I think this is how it's gonna be for a lot of teams maybe not this volume but to some extent.

Morsell was a big loss now that you mention him he may have been a good one to keep in the fold.

I have used Gardner in my Draft Kings lineups where did he transfer from?

 

[dukedevilz]

I have used Gardner in my Draft Kings lineups where did he transfer from?

East Carolina. Was 1st Team All-Conference last season in the American Athletic. He dropped 21/15 on Houston last year in their upset win. Solid player.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

Because FT discrepancies tell the whole story. I thought maybe Duke won a fairly close game by shooting +50% vs UK's -40%. But you're probably right. The 5 more fouls called on Kentucky, including to slow the game down at the end, is likely what caused Kentucky to lose. After all, Duke doesn't win without the refs' help and Kentucky doesn't lose without being screwed by the refs.

Just look at last night's game Ghost. If it happened occasionally it would not be a problem, but it happens all the time. The 5 more fouls called on Kentucky was not the problem it was the resulting number of free throws, over three times as many.

Good teams usually get more free throws; however, Kentucky was a good team also.

Check the stats from last night's game.

Sorry to be a sore loser but it happens often and as a rule Duke comes out on top.

 

[GhostOf301]

Just look at last night's game Ghost. If it happened occasionally it would not be a problem, but it happens all the time. The 5 more fouls called on Kentucky was not the problem it was the resulting number of free throws, over three times as many.

Good teams usually get more free throws; however, Kentucky was a good team also.

Check the stats from last night's game.

Sorry to be a sore loser but it happens often and as a rule Duke comes out on top.

You're sounding like a tar heel fan, Bert. I held you to a higher regard at one point.

 

[GhostOf301]

Lol at looking at stats to see how they game was officiated. UVA was getting wide open layups and dunks on offense all night. On defense, they were challenging every shot Duke was taking at the rim. Huge shocker that more fouks are called on contested shots than uncontested shots. Duke players definitely initiated contact on a lot of those fouls against UVA, but the same was true on the other end. The always blame the ref crowd is a pitiful group of whiners.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

I think the officiating complaints run into a wall when teams that are perceived to get calls go against each other.

In general aggressive offensive players if appearing under control are gonna get to the FT line. I do think some coaches may actually coach their players to not challenge dunks and things of that nature.

Make your shots, avoid bad turnovers, and ref impact can be reduced. There are gonna be some wild examples of bad officiating it ain't an easy job.

Borden needs to weigh in.

EDIT - Flopping is an art form every team has some pros at it. I know UofL had Russ Smith and long ago a reserve named BJ Flynn that were great at the neck snap. OMG they get hit by a truck, that's a foul???!!!!!???!!!!

 

[Kevin Bryan]

Lol at looking at stats to see how they game was officiated. UVA was getting wide open layups and dunks on offense all night. On defense, they were challenging every shot Duke was taking at the rim. Huge shocker that more fouls are called on contested shots than uncontested shots. Duke players definitely initiated contact on a lot of those fouls against UVA, but the same was true on the other end. The always blame the ref crowd is a pitiful group of whiners.

Yeah, I always get a kick out of folks that try to prove one-sided officiating simply by pointing out foul and free throw disparities, as if that is supposed to cement the argument. There are plenty of other reasons for those numbers to be skewed, most of which have nothing to do with favorable (or non-favorable) officiating. Style of play is going to dictate that most of the time. For example, a team that shoots 40 3-pointers a game is not going to get fouled as much because they never take the ball inside the perimeter. Or, like you said, a team that is playing terrible defense and consistently giving up uncontested shots isn't going to get whistled as much either.

 

[FaithPlusOne]

Duke doesn't win without the refs' help

I hope you don’t mind me stripping this of all context.

 

[BasketBallJunkie-UK]

Because FT discrepancies tell the whole story. I thought maybe Duke won a fairly close game by shooting +50% vs UK's -40%. But you're probably right. The 5 more fouls called on Kentucky, including to slow the game down at the end, is likely what caused Kentucky to lose. After all, Duke doesn't win without the refs' help and Kentucky doesn't lose without being screwed by the refs.

Naw, your guys were better prepared. Ours needed more time to figure things out. TyTy was a no show, Wheeler didn't know what he was doing for the most part lol. Wasn't til after the ND loss that things started ticking for Wheeler.

 

[TheDude1]

Duke has lost all of their games this year by a total of, I believe, 9 points combined. And more than half of those (5 points) came from the loss to OSU.

 

[Kevin Bryan]

Duke has lost all of their games this year by a total of, I believe, 9 points combined. And more than half of those (5 points) came from the loss to OSU.

 

[dukedevilz]

Duke has lost all of their games this year by a total of, I believe, 9 points combined. And more than half of those (5 points) came from the loss to OSU.

Yep. Pretty crazy. We had a legit shot to win every single game so far. Here's what the combined points looks like in losses for all of the top 12 KenPom teams.

Houston: 3 points, 2 losses
Auburn: 6 points, 1 loss
Duke: 9 points, 4 losses
Purdue: 10 points, 3 losses
Gonzaga: 12 points, 2 losses
Arizona: 20 points, 2 losses
Kentucky: 26 points, 4 losses
Kansas: 30 points, 4 losses
Texas Tech: 36 points, 5 losses
UCLA: 36 points, 4 losses
Baylor: 43 points, 4 losses
Villanova: 69 points, 6 losses

 

[GhostOf301]

The four teams Duke lost to have a combined 30 losses.

 

[dukedevilz]

The four teams Duke lost to have a combined 30 losses.

And that's the downside of our losses. Almost any loss in the ACC is a bad loss.

But, we are 2-0 against the #1 and #2 KenPom teams. If nothing else, the talent is clearly there.

A little concerned about Wendell Moore. He was playing like an All-American in November and December. He's been disappearing for long stretches of games in the past month. We need him to be more assertive.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

You're sounding like a tar heel fan, Bert. I held you to a higher regard at one point.

You are a good fellow Ghost. I would love to meet you.

 

[GhostOf301]

And that's the downside of our losses. Almost any loss in the ACC is a bad loss.

But, we are 2-0 against the #1 and #2 KenPom teams. If nothing else, the talent is clearly there.

A little concerned about Wendell Moore. He was playing like an All-American in November and December. He's been disappearing for long stretches of games in the past month. We need him to be more assertive.

I can't hate on Griffin tok much. It's not his fault, but Duke needs him to be consistent as much as they need Moore to contribute if they're going to be any kind of deep run contender. It's early enough, still. I am just not very confident if Banchero is the backbone of the team.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Once the brackets drop it's gonna be chaos. At least 5 teams in the S16 are gonna be off the grid more than likely, maybe even more. A couple brackets will probably look loaded the bracket that's gonna fall apart will be obvious etc. I don't know how many games are left but Duke probably still has time to go into the NCAAs on a 12 game win streak. I know they won't have Louisville in their bracket RollLaugh

 

[dukedevilz]

I can't hate on Griffin tok much. It's not his fault, but Duke needs him to be consistent as much as they need Moore to contribute if they're going to be any kind of deep run contender. It's early enough, still. I am just not very confident if Banchero is the backbone of the team.

Griffin played poorly last night, but overall he's been amazingly productive. He easily merits 30 minutes a night. Feel like Moore is still productive, too - he's just not getting as many touches as he'd been getting in the first two months of the season.

Always have mixed feelings on Roach and Keels. Roach has really good ball control. And Keels provides great defensive pressure in the backcourt. He also plays really hard. But, neither one can consistently hit outside shots. And feel like that might be our stumbling block. Keels is 2nd on the team in FGA per game - and Roach is 4th. Would love to just get more shots for Moore and Griffin - and, of course, Banchero and Williams when we find them in the post.

 

[bignish]

Is it true Duke hasn't won a conference title outright since like 2006? That's absurd.

Yep we split the title with Maryland in 2010. I want to use the we're everybody's Super Bowl excuse but KU and the other blue bloods like UK and UNC when they have teams that are title contenders have no issues taking care of business in the regular season.

I'm not sure why it is to be honest. Duke has had teams win 2 National Championships, go to 3 other Elite 8s and win 5 ACC Tournament titles since then so its not like we haven't had a bunch of contenders since then. Go figure.

It would be embarrassing if we didn't win the ACC outright this year.

Honestly though, the official ACC Champion is who wins the ACCT so winning the regular season isn't an achievement that's celebrated like it is in other conferences.

Any Duke fan would tell you we would rather sweep Carolina this year in K's final season than win the ACC Regular Season even though we haven't done it in over 15 years.

 

[GhostOf301]

Any Duke fan would tell you we would rather sweep Carolina this year in K's final season than win the ACC Regular Season even though we haven't done it in over 15 years.

 

[bignish]

I don't think excuses are needed. Duke was out classed and they have a serious lack of consistent guard play. They're going to struggle against every team that has moderately good guards and a decent game inside. And they don't seem to have that player that refuses to lose. Keels was the only one who showed a glimpse of that last night. But he's just not that good. Yet anyways.

I agree with you completely but we're luckily in the midst of a college basketball season with no truly elite and experienced guards though they are good ones.

Elite guard combos from years past like Siva/Smith, Arcidiacano/Brunson, Fox/Monk, Shabazz Napier/Boatright, Mason/Graham etc. would rip us apart.

KD Johnson/Green, Akinjo/Cryer, TyTy/Wheeler, Nembhard/Bolton, Frazier/Curbelo, etc. are not in the same class as those other guys. TyTy is showing glimpses and Jaden Ivey is supremely talented but this is the one year where this glaring weakness shouldn't matter as much.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

down year

 

[tw3301]

The fact that Duke has already lost 3 conference games in this shit ACC makes me appreciate the seasons that UVA went 16-2 and 17-1 in significantly stronger ACC seasons. Maintaining a standard of excellence throughout an entire conference season is difficult to do.

who beat UVA those years?

 

[Montana81]

Dukes gotten calls for years. i can think of a lot of possible reasons why. It’s not every game. They did not get a good whistle against ohio state. i watched that game in shock because i thought they actually got a pretty bad whistle. But more often than not they get the better end of it.

The only other team that gets anywhere near the same benefit of the doubt from the stripes is Kansas. and for whatever reason that friendly whistle does not seem to follow kansas into the tournament.

It is what it is at this point. i know ahead of time what i’m probably in for when i watch a duke game. They’re a great program. coach K is obviously still a great coach. They run really clean offense consistently. It’s fun to watch. But they’re consistently given a lot more lee way on defense than most teams and that’s the part..as it’s happening if you’re not a duke fan you’re just kind of laughing and rolling your eyes.

 

[jhmossy]

who beat UVA those years?

Went 16-2 in 2014-2015: Lost at Duke and at Louisville on a last second shot
Went 17-1 in 2017-2018: Lost at home to VT in OT (FML)
Went 16-2 in 2018-2019: Lost to Duke twice

Duke has been pretty much the only team to own us. FSU is always a challenge too. Pretty obvious that we are Duke's Super Bowl considering how they get up for us and then lose to these other teams that we've dominated.

 

[TheDude1]

Dukes gotten calls for years. i can think of a lot of possible reasons why. It’s not every game. They did not get a good whistle against ohio state. i watched that game in shock because i thought they actually got a pretty bad whistle. But more often than not they get the better end of it.

The only other team that gets anywhere near the same benefit of the doubt from the stripes is Kansas. and for whatever reason that friendly whistle does not seem to follow kansas into the tournament.

It is what it is at this point. i know ahead of time what i’m probably in for when i watch a duke game. They’re a great program. coach K is obviously still a great coach. They run really clean offense consistently. It’s fun to watch. But they’re consistently given a lot more lee way on defense than most teams and that’s the part..as it’s happening if you’re not a duke fan you’re just kind of laughing and rolling your eyes.

I love how nobody ever believes the refs favor THEM... they always favor the OTHER teams.

 

[bignish]

Dukes gotten calls for years. i can think of a lot of possible reasons why. It’s not every game. They did not get a good whistle against ohio state. i watched that game in shock because i thought they actually got a pretty bad whistle. But more often than not they get the better end of it.

The only other team that gets anywhere near the same benefit of the doubt from the stripes is Kansas. and for whatever reason that friendly whistle does not seem to follow kansas into the tournament.

It is what it is at this point. i know ahead of time what i’m probably in for when i watch a duke game. They’re a great program. coach K is obviously still a great coach. They run really clean offense consistently. It’s fun to watch. But they’re consistently given a lot more lee way on defense than most teams and that’s the part..as it’s happening if you’re not a duke fan you’re just kind of laughing and rolling your eyes.

I hate this WOE IS ME attitude, you're a fan of a blue blood program. There would be no explanation for Duke to get a better whistle than UK, none whatsoever.

All teams play physical games on the road where the whistle doesn't go their way.

You're the winningest program of all time, why would Duke or KU get preferential treatment over you? Stop with this BS, it makes your fanbase looks bad.