Lets crap on bill self for a while

ThePhog08

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Since Jay Bilas did say he is the 6th best coach in this tourney

Bill Self has gotten out of the first round of the NCAA Tourney for 15 years in a row. In that time... Coach K has lost in the 1st rd 3 times & missed a tourney Jay Wright has lost in the 1st rd 3 times & missed a tourney Cal has missed 2 tourneys w/ 1, 1st rd loss #KUbball
 

RockChalk82

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Since Jay Bilas did say he is the 6th best coach in this tourney

Bill Self has gotten out of the first round of the NCAA Tourney for 15 years in a row. In that time... Coach K has lost in the 1st rd 3 times & missed a tourney Jay Wright has lost in the 1st rd 3 times & missed a tourney Cal has missed 2 tourneys w/ 1, 1st rd loss #KUbball

lack of natties compared to UConn, duke and unc in that span still hurts KU
 

Turinturumbar

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lack of natties compared to UConn, duke and unc in that span still hurts KU
He also has him behind Few(no titles), Izzo who has a lot of mediocre to even bad teams out there lately, and Calipari who has the same # of titles as Self but has not performed as well year over year. Calipari is at least understandable, but the other two?
 

ravenman10

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To be far, Self is the only coach to be on a 15 game winning streak in the first round. Ya ya, no big deal, but avoiding upsets speaks to his coaching ability. Same can’t be said for any other coach or they would have 15 in a row.
Where he chokes is the Elite 8 but as I identified in another thread, 6 of his last 9 NCAA losses came to teams that played in the final for with 5 making the title game. So when he loses its to a damn good team.
 

wesr

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Self needs another title for sure. Give him Duke/UK talent and he definitely has a few more.

Look at this starting 5 he’s putting out there. They were a 3 seed last year and now he coached them to a one seed.

Ku’s current starting 5 and not one 5 star on the team


class rank
Braun 93rd
Agbaji 145th
Wilson 47th
Harris not ranked
McCormick 35th
 

EvilMonkeyInTheCloset

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Self also leads a program that would be under NCAA sanctions if it were any other also-ran program.........and according to some it still may yet be.

So he's got that going for him. :D
 
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JHawk2186

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Self also leads a program that would be under NCAA sanctions if it were any other also-ran program.........and according to some it still may yet be.

So he's got that going for him. :D
Agreed. It has been well established that outside of the few teams named in the FBI investigation no one else has ever paid a penny for a recruit and Nike most certainly does not funnel money to players to attend Nike sponsored schools the way Adidas does.
 

ExitFlagger

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Self needs another title for sure. Give him Duke/UK talent and he definitely has a few more.

Look at this starting 5 he’s putting out there. They were a 3 seed last year and now he coached them to a one seed.

Ku’s current starting 5 and not one 5 star on the team


class rank
Braun 93rd
Agbaji 145th
Wilson 47th
Harris not ranked
McCormick 35th
McCormack was overrated coming out of HS too. And currently can’t jump due to an injured foot.

This is far from his most talented or athletic team, but I like the fact that he has an unusual number of local players. Braun from rural KS and Agbaji from KC. Harris played on Braun’s AAU team. Clemence played at Sunrise and Lightfoot is originally from KC (didn’t even know this until his cousin cut my hair awhile ago).

Much easier to root for unheralded local players than prima donnas who use your school as a stepping stone. It’s also easy to root for a player like Martin. It was his dream to play for KU coming out of HS, and now that he finally has his shot, he’s enjoying every minute and making the most of it.
 
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1Tripoda

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Since Jay Bilas did say he is the 6th best coach in this tourney

Bill Self has gotten out of the first round of the NCAA Tourney for 15 years in a row. In that time... Coach K has lost in the 1st rd 3 times & missed a tourney Jay Wright has lost in the 1st rd 3 times & missed a tourney Cal has missed 2 tourneys w/ 1, 1st rd loss #KUbball
Duke and Villanova were made by K and Wright. Bill Self got Kansas and its histories. He's a great coach, no matter what sticks you want to use.
 

wesr

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Imagine having to use first round wins as your argument for your coach being the best. Meanwhile other people use national titles and final 4 appearances
KU is up there in FF appearances. Top 5 currently and move into the top 4 this year.
 

ExitFlagger

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Imagine having to use first round wins as your argument for your coach being the best. Meanwhile other people use national titles and final 4 appearances
There’s what…2 active coaches with more titles, and one is about to retire?
 

cooljeff

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Lol, Do you agree or disagree?
love Coach Self, but it is his job to get the talent...the talent that he wants and then shape them into the team he wants. recruiting is part of the job...it makes no sense to penalize K or Cal for having talent...that is the best way to win. Self's consistency is amazing and he has been much better in the dance then most believe. Of course if we play in 2020 and they win, everyone looks at this completely differently but that was not guaranteed.

I don't know man, he is a fantastic coach but let's not cry about his lack of talent...
 
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ExitFlagger

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love Coach Self, but it is his job to get the talent...the talent that he wants and then shape them into the team he wants. recruiting is part of the job...it makes no sense to penalize K or Cal for having talent...that is the best way to win. Self's consistency is amazing and he has been much better in the dance then most believe. Of course if we play in 2020 and they win, everyone looks at this completely differently but that was not guaranteed.

I don't know man, he is a fantastic coach but let's not cry about his lack of talent...
But we all know that there's a lot of funny business involved in recruiting and that shoe companies steer players to certain schools. I don't think recruiting should be a criteria in the discussion of someone's coaching ability.

It's not that anyone "penalizes" Calipari or K for having the talent. But judging a person's success is always going to be relative to expectation.

Self is penalized for his talent as well. All but a select few schools would be wildly happy with a coach who goes to the Elite 8 every other year, and has three final fours and a title. But to many, that's totally unacceptable for Self. And if that's unacceptable for Self, then what Calipari and K have done of late should definitely be unacceptable. They can have almost any player that they want.
 

RipThru

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But we all know that there's a lot of funny business involved in recruiting and that shoe companies steer players to certain schools. I don't think recruiting should be a criteria in the discussion of someone's coaching ability.

It's not that anyone "penalizes" Calipari or K for having the talent. But judging a person's success is always going to be relative to expectation.

Self is penalized for his talent as well. All but a select few schools would be wildly happy with a coach who goes to the Elite 8 every other year, and has three final fours and a title. But to many, that's totally unacceptable for Self. And if that's unacceptable for Self, then what Calipari and K have done of late should definitely be unacceptable. They can have almost any player that they want.
It is.
 
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KUhawks34

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love Coach Self, but it is his job to get the talent...the talent that he wants and then shape them into the team he wants. recruiting is part of the job...it makes no sense to penalize K or Cal for having talent...that is the best way to win. Self's consistency is amazing and he has been much better in the dance then most believe. Of course if we play in 2020 and they win, everyone looks at this completely differently but that was not guaranteed.

I don't know man, he is a fantastic coach but let's not cry about his lack of talent...
Crying about his talent? Lol

reading is hard.
 

IUfanBorden

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It must be a really long time since you’ve won a title if you’re using getting out of the first round as your measure of the best coach
To be fair, two the 8 listed have never won a title----including Few----who's ahead of Self.
 

cooljeff

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Crying about his talent? Lol

reading is hard.
Crying about his talent? Lol

reading is hard.
come on man, OP titled this thread lets CRAP on Bill Self for a while...I am just trying to honor that. Crying is likely not the correct word but you did suggest he would have a lot more titles at kentucky with that talent...is that not lamenting the talent level that he has at least in respect to UK? He is the one responsible for getting the talent, so maybe Cal (or nike) is better at that aspect of the job than Self (or adidas). Self is a great x and o coach but we have seen him struggle integrating freshmen and newcomers...Cal has impressed me at times how well he has gotten young//new teams to buy in on the defensive side. Whatever they are both excellent coaches and I think Self is at least equal of any available coach in college.
 

KUhawks34

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come on man, OP titled this thread lets CRAP on Bill Self for a while...I am just trying to honor that. Crying is likely not the correct word but you did suggest he would have a lot more titles at kentucky with that talent...is that not lamenting the talent level that he has at least in respect to UK? He is the one responsible for getting the talent, so maybe Cal (or nike) is better at that aspect of the job than Self (or adidas). Self is a great x and o coach but we have seen him struggle integrating freshmen and newcomers...Cal has impressed me at times how well he has gotten young//new teams to buy in on the defensive side. Whatever they are both excellent coaches and I think Self is at least equal of any available coach in college.
I didn’t say Self has bad talent. However the talent disparity between Cal and Self is very distinct. Self has great talent but compared to UK there is a very big difference.

My point is Self would do a lot more with the talent that UK had.
 

cooljeff

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I didn’t say Self has bad talent. However the talent disparity between Cal and Self is very distinct. Self has great talent but compared to UK there is a very big difference.

My point is Self would do a lot more with the talent that UK had.
don't disagree, but getting talent is a big part of the job...so that is on him. Of course just compiling the highest rated players you can is not the right way to build a team either...more nuance invovled than that, which I know you are aware of and now I am simply rambling
 

KUhawks34

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don't disagree, but getting talent is a big part of the job...so that is on him. Of course just compiling the highest rated players you can is not the right way to build a team either...more nuance invovled than that, which I know you are aware of and now I am simply rambling
You are thinking about this a little too much. I know Talent is part of the job and self does a good job with that. My argument has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with the talent Cal has And what he’s been able to do with it