You're right, it is pretty worthless. There is an expiration date on success.
A program's relevance has to be measured on current strength and recent recruiting unless you are an archaeologist at an ancient dig site.
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A program's relevance has to be measured on current strength and recent recruiting unless you are an archaeologist at an ancient dig site.
SO, exactly how good was that Memphis team then? Because if those dudes hit FT's...............
They struggled to hit free throws all year. We were a good 3 pt shooting team and hit 2 threes all game. So which is abnormal? A good shooting team not shooting well or a team missing free throws which they’ve done all season.
Not to mention Kansas beat the shit out of UNC who everyone loves. Those teams aren’t comparable. Kansas is way better than 09 UNC.
1997 went 34-1 before losing to zona. 2008 was like 35-3 or 35-4, similar record as 2010, 2011, 2020 and a couple others. 1997 was near flawless. Kentucky people will put 2015 over a couple times that won a natty I’m sure too.
if 97 played that tourney out 3 times, they’d win it the next two.
Agree that 97 wins that tourney more times than not. Comparing records is not the best way to compare teams
I mean to be fair-----KU shot 39% from three----and shot just 25%(3-12) that night. BUT, Memphis shot a decent 35% from three, and was only 6-22(27%) that night...
A "wash" so to speak there...
KU shot 70% as a team from the FT line that year----but that night, KU went 14-15(93%).
Mem shot 62% as a team......went 12-19(63%) that night..
KU shot well above their season average-----Memphis right around their season average..
Big advantage Kansas...
Memphis was up 9, 60-51 with just over two minutes to go....
62-58 late when Douglass-Roberts, a 72% FT shooter, who had just hit two huge FT's earlier to give Memphis a 6 point lead with 1:40 to, suddenly goes cold, and misses 4 straight....Then Rose, a 71% shooter, hits just one of two with 10 seconds left, setting up Chalmers three to send the game to OT...
So............seems things kinda of even out here. Memphis had their two best FT shooters on the line late, and they went 1-5. Good FT shooters at that. They were a combined 9-13 that night----with all four of those misses comng in the last 1:30...
So which is abnormal? KU shooting 93% from the line-----or two 70%+ FT shooters missing 1-5 attempts late? Their only misses of the game...
Kansas was really good in '08-----but so was Memphis. Thats why I asked, if 08 KU was your best team---I disagree, then just how good was that Memphis team. And if '08 KU is on the most underrated teams of all time---, well where is Memphis at?
IMO, best KU team was 1997....Still amazed that team didn't win it all.
2008 KU better than 2009 UNC? IDK about that one.. That team beat the shit out of some good teams....Including a really good, solid MSU team in the title game by 17-----a team that had beaten earlier in the year by 35.....When on their "A" game, sheesh----that tem was a monster.
Those Sunflower Showdowns in 2011 were fun to watch. Cats and Squaks both loaded
I'll agree to disagree on Kansas winning that tourney two out of three times because I think they just didn't match up well with Arizona. That 2008 squad on the other hand was one of the toughest I've ever seen. I remember watching that final four vs UNC with Carolina fans who were speechless as KU rolled out one future NBA big after another to smother Hansbrough.
Pretty similar to my rankings. I still need to update for the 2022 season, as I know Kansas is going to leapfrog Duke. I think Arkansas and Gonzaga will move up a little bit, too. I put my rankings in parenthesis.
This only includes Titles & Final Fours.
SOS should have probably been factored more, but I really didn't spend a ton of time on this.
Utah has twice as many conference titles and more wins/winning% and basically even in tourney appearances.
Rhode Island was almost ranked in the final AP Poll in 2018. They were #25 heading into the conference tournaments. Saint Mary's finished the year at 25th with 71 votes, while Rhode Island had 66 receiving votes.
I’d recommend putting some sort of weight on SOS. Winning conference titles in a dogshit conference does not = winning them in a P6 conference. Not to mention the winning % advantage of easier opponents.
True. Play in an over ranked conference and it looks good, then you get to the tourney and crap the bed.
Another thing I did that I'm not sure makes a lot of sense or not, for each category I made whoever is #1 the baseline.
So for titles, UCLA gets a 1 because they have the most (11). So Duke in that category would get a .45 (5/11).
Probably not the best way to go about it, but like I said, I did this in like an hour.
I do think titles are important though so I don't really feel too bad about UCLA being #2.
I really wish I could search by years. Would love to see pre-ncaa, then 1940's-70's. Then modern NCAA which you could argue was 1975 (32 teams), 1979 (40 teams) or 1985 (64 teams).
So for titles, UCLA gets a 1 because they have the most (11). So Duke in that category would get a .45 (5/11).
Probably not the best way to go about it, but like I said, I did this in like an hour.
I do think titles are important though so I don't really feel too bad about UCLA being #2.
I really wish I could search by years. Would love to see pre-ncaa, then 1940's-70's. Then modern NCAA which you could argue was 1975 (32 teams), 1979 (40 teams) or 1985 (64 teams).
We are comparing Michigan to Utah and Michigan has more tournament success than Utah.
The only thing Utah really leads in are things directly related to simply playing in an easier conference.
When one discusses the strength of a program, it has to relate to the present time or it is nothing but a historical side note. If you added up ancient Rome's successes it would be impressive, but no one would consider Rome (Italy) a power house "program" today. The same is true in CBB.
I just redid it with tournament wins and changed the weights a little bit.
Max score possible is 25.
20% NC's
16% FF's
12% each Winning %, Conf Champs, Tourney appearances, Tourney wins
8% Total wins & Final AP Poll appearances
1. Kentucky (22.5)
2. UCLA (21.0)
3. North Carolina (20.9)
4. Kansas (19.6)
5. Duke (18.1)
6. Louisville (13.8)
7. Indiana (13.5)
8. Villanova (12.2)
9. Michigan State (11.8)
10. Connecticut (11.7)
11. Ohio State (11.5)
12. Syracuse (11.3)
13. Cincinnati (11.0)
14. Arizona (10.7)
15. Michigan (10.5)
16. Arkansas (10.3)
17. Utah (9.8)
18. Oklahoma State (9.8)
19. Illinois (9.5)
20. Purdue (9.2)
21. Georgetown (9.1)
22. Texas (8.9)
23. Oklahoma (8.8)
24. NC State (8.8)
25. Wisconsin (8.7)
Notables:
26. Florida (8.6)
33. Gonzaga (8.0)
37. Virginia (7.85)
40. Iowa (7.6)
92. Auburn (5.1)
358. Kennesaw State (1.1)
Louisville jumps Indiana.
Villanova & MSU jump UConn.
Max score possible is 25.
20% NC's
16% FF's
12% each Winning %, Conf Champs, Tourney appearances, Tourney wins
8% Total wins & Final AP Poll appearances
1. Kentucky (22.5)
2. UCLA (21.0)
3. North Carolina (20.9)
4. Kansas (19.6)
5. Duke (18.1)
6. Louisville (13.8)
7. Indiana (13.5)
8. Villanova (12.2)
9. Michigan State (11.8)
10. Connecticut (11.7)
11. Ohio State (11.5)
12. Syracuse (11.3)
13. Cincinnati (11.0)
14. Arizona (10.7)
15. Michigan (10.5)
16. Arkansas (10.3)
17. Utah (9.8)
18. Oklahoma State (9.8)
19. Illinois (9.5)
20. Purdue (9.2)
21. Georgetown (9.1)
22. Texas (8.9)
23. Oklahoma (8.8)
24. NC State (8.8)
25. Wisconsin (8.7)
Notables:
26. Florida (8.6)
33. Gonzaga (8.0)
37. Virginia (7.85)
40. Iowa (7.6)
92. Auburn (5.1)
358. Kennesaw State (1.1)
Louisville jumps Indiana.
Villanova & MSU jump UConn.
