Thought the same thing, it’s in one ear out the other. Then right back into whatever rambling point he has to make.
Most Impactful Center in 2021-22
- Thread starter dukedevilz
- Start date
Have too many people who think as fans and not as players
But basketball is a game we all have played at one level or another.
I have told people this before if you are a shooter.
Would you rather should over a guy who is 6-1 or 6-11
Kai Jones talent is clear. Anyone who has been around the game can see this
The question now becomes
Bench piece
25-35 minute guy
All Star
To me that will be based on him getting stronger.
Looks like he hasn’t grown into his body. Why the summer league was a little bit of everything very much like his career at Texas.
I would have that guy in the G League getting size and then developing his shot.
Wouldn’t be too surprise if he becomes a hot name in 2-3 years
6-11 guys who move like they are 6-6 are rare
That 6-11 guy makes things difficult for teams with his length on the perimeter.
This is the impact that people often times miss.
Offense goes cold…
Because of what happens with the guys on the court.
Often times it is size.
Different types. IMO
Long and lengthy. Wingspan. Can make you think twice about shooting. More than that mess with your sightZ
Hand in the face
The other are the guys who are 6-4 300 pounds because you cannot ever get position on something that big especially if they can move quick.
Not too many of those players really around too much anymore.
There are some big body guards who have the similar way of defending. Not that size
I'll let the foremost experts in the field know that their stats are dumb, and I'll send them to you for your expert analysis.
Stats don't measure everything, but they do a great job. Might be time to distance yourself from analyzing the game if you can't understand their usefulness.
Too many people who want to argue about nonsense…
More than that watch the game.
We see the raw talent that becomes the impact bigs in the NBA
These players are extremely rare
One position where you have a combination of things
Great college players
Undersize players
Raw talent
There is a reason why those 4 Final 4 teams all played with undersize bigs.
If that big is someone who can move like he is smaller but has wingspan bring him in
But often times it is raw talent
People bringing up Kai Jones😂😂😭
First round draft pick. Who cares what your numbers say
Guy has a huge upside. Even if he doesn’t develop on offense. Could be a decent bench big
Never said stats are dumb but they don’t tell you much
Usage is based on the basketball in the players hand
Remember what I told you in the beginning. The best basketball players don’t need the ball in their hands to impact the game…
Simple game.
But selfishness turns it into a difficult game
Everyone wants to be a big time player
Often times people miss important things for the guy with the basketball in his hands
But that doesn’t win basketball games
Look how fast that guy is
Look how high he jumps
Look how long he is
Look how strong he is
The guy looks like his shot has been improving
Looks like he is getting better positioning for rebounds
Looks like he is more confident with the ball
This is raw.
Like I said the center position is filled with these players
Often times we don’t see them doing much until the NBA
Not too many Anthony Davis around.
Usage isn’t telling you any of these. I think knowing where the ball is at is important
But even on the offensive end. You can create a basket even without the ball
Do you know basketball….
Wouldn’t you say that usage rate would be better for guards particularly point guards to look at
More than that ball movement is important and what makes ball movement important is movement without the ball
Look how high he jumps
Look how long he is
Look how strong he is
The guy looks like his shot has been improving
Looks like he is getting better positioning for rebounds
Looks like he is more confident with the ball
This is raw.
Like I said the center position is filled with these players
Often times we don’t see them doing much until the NBA
Not too many Anthony Davis around.
Usage isn’t telling you any of these. I think knowing where the ball is at is important
But even on the offensive end. You can create a basket even without the ball
Do you know basketball….
Wouldn’t you say that usage rate would be better for guards particularly point guards to look at
More than that ball movement is important and what makes ball movement important is movement without the ball
Why did UCLA add Myles Johnson and Gonzaga add Chet Holmgren?
They had final 4 caliber undersized big men already on their rosters…
Gonzaga had rim protection problems last year. I actually think Gonzaga could have been better
The guy they brought in is supposedly a difference maker….
Blocking shots. Rim protection
But Chet is one of those players I am speaking about.
7-1 and moves like he is 6-7
Don’t know anything about the UCLA guy
Riley is a senior. They have a few other bigs.
UCLA is a team who very much like Bob Huggins will allow the ref to dictate the game
For protection they have a lot of front court depth
Not too familiar with this one
They have that light skin kid. Big. Don’t see too much in his future.
Doesn’t have what Riley does
I like to watch players at least a few times before I really give anything close to concrete statements
I watch basketball. Don’t particularly care what any of the stats say
So many CBB games. Difficult to see everyone.
Better team would have been 2019-2020 Kansas
They had a grown man at center
Couldn’t move that guy.
Possibly Kofi can be that this year for Illinois
Like someone said it will be hard to see them in the FF. That Kansas team had some other players as well
Ultimately just comes down to offensive efficiency
Teams can find a way to slow down that big and then be more efficient on offense than you
When is the last 7-0 guy who really carried a team
This isn’t Ralph Sampson back in the day
I watch basketball. Don’t particularly care what any of the stats say
So many CBB games. Difficult to see everyone.
Better team would have been 2019-2020 Kansas
They had a grown man at center
Couldn’t move that guy.
Possibly Kofi can be that this year for Illinois
Like someone said it will be hard to see them in the FF. That Kansas team had some other players as well
Ultimately just comes down to offensive efficiency
Teams can find a way to slow down that big and then be more efficient on offense than you
When is the last 7-0 guy who really carried a team
This isn’t Ralph Sampson back in the day
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Most centers aren't 7'0, though. Of my top 10, only Hunter Dickinson and Kofi Cockburn are listed as 7 feet+
But to your point, guards usually have a stronger influence in March than bigs. Last three national champions had really impressive backcourts - Baylor, Virginia, and Villanova. UNC had a stronger frontcourt than backcourt in 2017, however. Probably Kentucky in 2012, too. For the most part, though, it's the guards carrying the load.
“They don’t tell you much”
Why is there an entire sports analytics industry that exists because the best coaches in the world utilize those stats? Is Vegas just really lucky with their lines, or are they able to predict very accurately because of stats? Do the best basketball minds in the world have it wrong while Sheriff’s outdated thoughts have it right? Or maybe you don’t understand them, so they’re dumb.
Always good to have size. But when it comes down to it teams will give up that size for athleticism
I haven’t started to speak about the guy from Indiana.
I like him as well.
But my point was in regards to the this idea that it was Timme, Kofi, Dickinson and everyone else
There might be some players on the list who can match up with Timme
But I think for most Timme’s footwork makes that difficult.
Off that footwork he has developed a bunch of ways to get off his shot.
Hammer doesn’t mean much if you use it as a screwdriver
There are important stats and advance analytics but you are attempting to use a hammer as a screwdriver
Usage stats tell me where the ball is at. Gets deeper than that.
Players you can cheat on.
Where on the court they have the ball
Where on the court they like to shoot from
You are looking at usage stats and determining the impact of a player in a full court game where offensive players also play defense
Guy can be a good offensive player but might not be able to keep his feet on the defensive end
Basketball is a game that you have to watch
Not like baseball
Baseball I can determine a lot by never watching a single game
Not in basketball. Stats only tell some of the story. Eyes tell the rest.
Go back last year this is why i kept telling people last year that UCLA vs Gonzaga would be close
Gonzaga would be run off the court by Baylor’s defense
But stats told people that somehow Gonzaga and Baylor had comparable defenses.
More than that
Told people where Baylor’s toughest challenge was actually at
Still remember people getting upset about me saying Villanova could be a team to watch out for against Baylor
Thought that might have been more of a Final 4 game.
Going back to smaller athletic bigs
Robinson Earl for Villanova is just trouble
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Haha right. Every NBA team has an analytics department. They all utilize the Synergy Sports Technology to capture the advanced statistics. The analytics is the very reason why there's been an explosion in three point attempts, why bigs are less utilized, and why offensive rebounds aren't pursued like they used to be.
Your hammer and screwdriver analogy, much like most of your line of thinking, is spot on and misapplied at the same time. With respect to statistics, that analogy applies directly to you. You don't know what the tool does. You don't know how to use it. And when you try to use it, you use it incorrectly.
What's funny is that the reason you like long, athletic, versatile big men is because analytics proved that they're more valuable and created a space for them to exist in the first place. Your brain caught on - it appears that thought process was subliminal.
How does the usage stat show you where on the court they have the ball, where they shoot it from, and the players you can cheat on? I'll give you a player's usage stat, and you tell me what type of player they are. The usage stat is 21.9%. Go.
Armando Bacot and Hunter Dickinson refused to be pushed around this year. Body transformation is almost complete.
We know you think that. You think Franz Wagner played better than Hunter Dickinson against UCLA shooting 1 for 10.
If Trevion Williams had gone pro, where would Zach Edey have been on this list?Arguably the deepest position in college basketball. Jalen Duren is the only freshmen in my top 10. Lots of good options. Tre Mitchell (Texas, via UMass) is the only transfer. Here are the stats from this past season.
Who will be the most impactful? This is a tough one.
Just missed: Mark Williams (Duke), Walker Kessler (Auburn), Oscar Tshiebwe (Kentucky)
Rest of the Honorable Mentions: Osun Osunniyi (St.Bonaventure), Paul Atkinson (Notre Dame), Kenneth Lofton (Louisiana Tech), Colin Castleton (Florida), John Fulkerson (Tennessee) Nate Watson (Providence), Tanner Groves (Oklahoma), Qudus Wahab (Maryland), Nick Muzynski (Belmont).
Possibly in the top 10, at least in the honorable mentions. His efficiency numbers are impressive. Of course, hard to post gaudy cumulative totals in only 15 minutes a game.
I don't disagree with your list, very solid! Offensive numbers aren't always important as the role. i.e. Anthony Davis lol Oscar is no AD for sure but he's there for defense and rebounding. Oh he's gonna get some lobs, but most of his points should come from put backs. He's way down on the list of offensive options. But he's gonna impact a game a lot. I was surprised at the athleticism and skills Daimion Collins has after a couple of excerpts from the first practice. Very smooth.
Here are the top vote-getters for all five positions.
Point Guards
1. Remy Martin, Kansas, 29.2%
2. Andre Curbelo, Illinois, 16.9%
3. Collin Gillespie, Villanoa, 13.8%
Shooting Guards
1. Jaden Ivey, Purdue, 51.2%
2. Johnny Juzang, UCLA, 31.7%
3. TyTy Washington, Kentucky, 7.3%
Small Forwards
1. Emoni Bates, Memphis, 22.7%
2. Timmy Allen, Texas, 18.2%
3. Caleb Houstan, Michigan, 13.6%
3. Kellan Grady, Kentucky, 13.6%
Power Forwards
1. Paolo Banchero, Duke, 38.5%
2. Chet Holmgren, Gonzaga, 34.6%
3. EJ Liddell, Ohio State, 11.5%
Centers
1. Drew Timme, Gonzaga, 33.3%
2. Kofi Cockburn, Illinois, 25.0%
3. Hunter Dickinson, Michigan, 12.5%
Top 10 vote-getters, percentage wise (obviously not completely fair since they weren't going up against each other.)
1. Jaden Ivey, Purdue, 51.2%
2. Paolo Banchero, Duke, 38.5%
3. Chet Holmgren, Gonzaga, 34.6%
4. Drew Timme, Gonzaga, 33.3%
5. Johnny Juzang, UCLA, 31.7%
6. Remy Martin, Kansas, 29.2%
7. Kofi Cockburn, Illinois, 25.0%
8. Emoni Bates, Memphis, 22.7%
9. Timmy Allen, Texas, 18.2%
10. Andre Curbelo, Illinois, 16.9%
Point Guards
1. Remy Martin, Kansas, 29.2%
2. Andre Curbelo, Illinois, 16.9%
3. Collin Gillespie, Villanoa, 13.8%
Shooting Guards
1. Jaden Ivey, Purdue, 51.2%
2. Johnny Juzang, UCLA, 31.7%
3. TyTy Washington, Kentucky, 7.3%
Small Forwards
1. Emoni Bates, Memphis, 22.7%
2. Timmy Allen, Texas, 18.2%
3. Caleb Houstan, Michigan, 13.6%
3. Kellan Grady, Kentucky, 13.6%
Power Forwards
1. Paolo Banchero, Duke, 38.5%
2. Chet Holmgren, Gonzaga, 34.6%
3. EJ Liddell, Ohio State, 11.5%
Centers
1. Drew Timme, Gonzaga, 33.3%
2. Kofi Cockburn, Illinois, 25.0%
3. Hunter Dickinson, Michigan, 12.5%
Top 10 vote-getters, percentage wise (obviously not completely fair since they weren't going up against each other.)
1. Jaden Ivey, Purdue, 51.2%
2. Paolo Banchero, Duke, 38.5%
3. Chet Holmgren, Gonzaga, 34.6%
4. Drew Timme, Gonzaga, 33.3%
5. Johnny Juzang, UCLA, 31.7%
6. Remy Martin, Kansas, 29.2%
7. Kofi Cockburn, Illinois, 25.0%
8. Emoni Bates, Memphis, 22.7%
9. Timmy Allen, Texas, 18.2%
10. Andre Curbelo, Illinois, 16.9%
Not sure if I'm surprised by the freshman love or not, but it should be a stronger class than last year.
Fans not so different from NBA scouts. We already have tape on some guys, the no tape or limited tape on the others causes projections for higher ceilings maybe.
It's a natural way of thinking.
It's a natural way of thinking.
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I'm usually a little hesitant about freshman, but I really like some of the top-tier freshman in this class. And even as lackluster as last year's class was, Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley, Jalen Suggs, and Hunter Dickinson were all honored with All-American honors.
After those four, however, the drop-off was pretty steep. I want to say Scottie Barnes, Moses Moody, and Cam Thomas were the only other freshmen, from the top 50 recruits, that made all-conference teams. Just feel like the class this year has better depth - and Chet and Paolo are both legit contenders for NPOY.
I can only see Chet making NPOY if he has an Anthony Davis type season defensively. Drew is going to be GU's leading scorer. He's just on another level than everyone else down in the post.
Dickinson was a freshman who made second team all American and is great in the post. He was better in the post than freshman Timme. Maybe pump the breaks on capping his sophomore ceiling?
Timme is probably the overall better player because he’s more versatile and can play away from the rim but you said “on another planet in the post”.
Lol why quote me and then choose different words? I said on another level not another planet.
Dickinson is good no doubt, and I expect him to improve. He’s a much better defender than Timme is. But he isn’t the scorer in the paint the way that Timme is.
Welcome to the Big Ten thread. Oh wait.
In terms of a post scorer I can definitely see Dickinson and Timme on the same level this season. Dickinson has no jump shot and doesn’t handle the ball as well as Timme but he might be a 17-18ppg scorer of entirely post scoring.
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I would agree that Timme will be the leading scorer. And he also has a higher floor, probably the highest floor in college basketball. Realistically, you have two legitimate NPOY candidates. Chet could easily average 4 blocks a game. And his skillset obviously isn't limited to just blocking shots. He can do a little bit of everything.
If you take Chet's U19 FIBA stats and apply those rates to 30 minutes a game, he's averaging 16.8 ppg, 8.6 reb, 4.6 ast, 3.8 blk, 2.0 stl. And he was also shooting 62% from the floor. He may not be able to maintain that production over 30 minutes, but it's clear that he's versatile enough to fill-up the box score on a nightly basis.
Those are the numbers that I expect from Chet. 16, 8 and 4 blocks a game. The team is stupid deep this year so it’s hard to project who is even going to start at the 2 and 3 position this year. But I see Timme getting featured and Chet just casually coming up with 16ppg.
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