I think Gonzaga is getting over valued

[hawkit3113]

Both the Zags and Oregon dominated us. One by 20 and the other by 15. Based on that, Oregon vs Gonzaga should be close.

Although that Gonzaga game wasn't close at all and it felt more like a 25 to 30 point loss

 

[Original_Irish]

Zags definitely have the best team in the field. Elite 8 on should be better games, however

Yup, all about survive and advance from here on out

 

[della]

Lets play the "what if-game"- if Zags do win the title, how do you compare them vs these teams:

• 2012 Kentucky
• 2009 UNC
• 18 Nova
• 2007 Florida

Were any of those teams undefeated?

 

[UL_1986]

No doubt.

The Zags are very very good, but lots of tough match ups left for them.

Yup. Should get interesting here in e8/f4.

 

[RR30]

Lets play the "what if-game"- if Zags do win the title, how do you compare them vs these teams:

• 2012 Kentucky
• 2009 UNC
• 18 Nova
• 2007 Florida

Are we talking resumes or a head to head matchup. If Gonzaga wins it'll be the first team in a long time to go undefeated. That matters some. Florida doesn't belong in the conversation as the other three either imo. You could make a case for any of the first three or 08 KU.

H2H though,
2012 UK would be interesting, Suggs would kill Teague but UK would be one of the few frontcourts better than Kispert/Timme. The math problem would be tough for Kentucky to beat.

UNC beats them but it's close. They shot the ball well and had NBA talent everywhere. I think they match up pretty well.

I take this Gonzaga team over Nova. Their frontcourt is better and gives them the win.

Florida gets run off the court.

 

[KStateFootball82]

No way lol. Zags are that good

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

I didn't watch the game...


But remember this...

 

[bignish]

Lol at Gonzaga being overvalued. They might not win the title but they are gonna have the three best players on the court in basically every game they play. The team is balanced so damn well.

Kispert didn’t even do anything today and the Zags still crushed a good Creighton team.

I think USC can make things interesting Tuesday if they bring their A game and Mobley plays well but anyone who doubts this Zags team is crazy.

This team is incredible.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Gonzaga has to.play D.
I was busy with other things and only saw pieces of that game.
The 6-7 minutes of game action I saw in the first half Creighton was getting theirs way too easy. Shouldn't be letting those points up in a Sweet 16 game.

I checked the score later and Gonzaga was up by 20 and Creighton only had around 50 points with around 10 minutes left in the second half...

Maybe they cracked down on the defensive end.

One of these days Gonzaga is going to have trouble scoring and they need to lean on their D....
Half court defense. Not going to always create those Turnovers.

Need a complete basketball team to win a championship.
But you always take the team slanted towards the defensive end because there aren't that many legit scorers in college basketball. Players that can get theirs every night.
Can't expect to run the efficient offenses you see in the NBA.

 

[Villian07]

Yea since Roy and unc have been winning titles with their outstanding defense. Not to say they were terrible, but def an offensive friendly system as opposed to other defensive minded coaches like Bennett and beard.

Gonzaga may not win it all but imo it’s gonna take them playing their B game and someone else playing lights out and esp shooting lights out from deep imo.

Id say my biggest worry as a zags fan would be a gamegoing down to the wire just bc they’ve beaten everyone by double digits sans wvu all season long.

 

[Disco Hat]

Are we talking resumes or a head to head matchup. If Gonzaga wins it'll be the first team in a long time to go undefeated. That matters some. Florida doesn't belong in the conversation as the other three either imo. You could make a case for any of the first three or 08 KU.

H2H though,
2012 UK would be interesting, Suggs would kill Teague but UK would be one of the few frontcourts better than Kispert/Timme. The math problem would be tough for Kentucky to beat.

UNC beats them but it's close. They shot the ball well and had NBA talent everywhere. I think they match up pretty well.

I take this Gonzaga team over Nova. Their frontcourt is better and gives them the win.

Florida gets run off the court.

you think a back-to-back championship Florida team starting Joakim Noah, Al Horford and Corey Brewer (with Marreese Speights and Chris Richard off the bench) gets run off the court by this Gonzaga squad? I think you're way, way off with that one.

 

[RR30]

you think a back-to-back championship Florida team starting Joakim Noah, Al Horford and Corey Brewer (with Marreese Speights and Chris Richard off the bench) gets run off the court by this Gonzaga squad? I think you're way, way off with that one.

Horford or Noah would be dead trying to guard Kispert on the perimeter. The game has changed in the 15 years since that team. Who's guarding Suggs? Florida was really good in a year where basketball really wasn't. I'd favor Memphis/KU a year later over them too.

 

[Disco Hat]

Horford or Noah would be dead trying to guard Kispert on the perimeter. The game has changed in the 15 years since that team. Who's guarding Suggs? Florida was really good in a year where basketball really wasn't. I'd favor Memphis/KU a year later over them too.

😄 we're talking fifteen years ago, man, not fifty, and the college version of Joakim Noah - before he put on weight to bang in the pros and went through a bunch of injuries - was a 6'11 gazelle who could switch 1-5 all game long and routinely played primary ballhandler on breaks. He would have been just fine shadowing Kispert on the perimeter, but UF could also have given Brewer that assignment (which would've been a lot worse matchup for Kispert). And you're completely ignoring the fact that Kispert and Timme would have been eaten alive on the other end by Horford and Noah.

you mentioned Suggs and that's your best point - he and Nembhard would be the guys Gonzaga would have to lean on to win a game against Florida. The Gators had a pair of tough veteran guards in Green and Humphrey, but they were both small compared to GU's 6'3 and 6'4 guys. Plus UF wasn't very deep at guard and didn't have a good backup for Green at point, so if he got in foul trouble it would be a major problem.

but that Florida team was a monster defensively against traditional or small-ball lineups precisely because their bigs were so mobile and could switch so well and because of their overall feel for the game and understanding of how to defend and attack. As a team they had one of the highest collective basketball IQs I've ever seen, and they could adapt and play at any pace an opponent wanted to try. They don't get the respect they deserve historically because they weren't a traditional college hoops blueblood and they didn't have a bunch of five-star heralded recruits. But their starting five of Noah, Horford, Brewer, Humphrey and Green never lost a postseason game in the two years they played together. They went 18-0 with two SEC tournament titles and two national titles, and in '06-07 they beat #10-ranked 3-seed Oregon, #7-ranked 2-seed UCLA and #1-ranked 1-seed Ohio State consecutively over the last three games to repeat as champs.

claiming this Gonzaga team would run that Gator squad off the court is laughable. They might win the game - UF wasn't unbeatable - but it wouldn't be a runaway by any means. If the two teams played ten times, I'd put my money on the Gators to take them out at least seven times.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

The problem for FLA would be Brewer could only guard Kispert or Suggs. Not both. Putting Humphrey on either would have probably been a problem. Who would Humphrey guard?

FLA was tough for sure. Would be a good game.

 

[RR30]

😄 we're talking fifteen years ago, man, not fifty, and the college version of Joakim Noah - before he put on weight to bang in the pros and went through a bunch of injuries - was a 6'11 gazelle who could switch 1-5 all game long and routinely played primary ballhandler on breaks. He would have been just fine shadowing Kispert on the perimeter, but UF could also have given Brewer that assignment (which would've been a lot worse matchup for Kispert). And you're completely ignoring the fact that Kispert and Timme would have been eaten alive on the other end by Horford and Noah.

you mentioned Suggs and that's your best point - he and Nembhard would be the guys Gonzaga would have to lean on to win a game against Florida. The Gators had a pair of tough veteran guards in Green and Humphrey, but they were both small compared to GU's 6'3 and 6'4 guys. Plus UF wasn't very deep at guard and didn't have a good backup for Green at point, so if he got in foul trouble it would be a major problem.

but that Florida team was a monster defensively against traditional or small-ball lineups precisely because their bigs were so mobile and could switch so well and because of their overall feel for the game and understanding of how to defend and attack. As a team they had one of the highest collective basketball IQs I've ever seen, and they could adapt and play at any pace an opponent wanted to try. They don't get the respect they deserve historically because they weren't a traditional college hoops blueblood and they didn't have a bunch of five-star heralded recruits. But their starting five of Noah, Horford, Brewer, Humphrey and Green never lost a postseason game in the two years they played together. They went 18-0 with two SEC tournament titles and two national titles, and in '06-07 they beat #10-ranked 3-seed Oregon, #7-ranked 2-seed UCLA and #1-ranked 1-seed Ohio State consecutively over the last three games to repeat as champs.

claiming this Gonzaga team would run that Gator squad off the court is laughable. They might win the game - UF wasn't unbeatable - but it wouldn't be a runaway by any means. If the two teams played ten times, I'd put my money on the Gators to take them out at least seven times.

15 years ain't 50 but the game has changed quite a bit since then.
Neither Horford or Noah were giant post threats. They Florida team was damn good. I'm not trying to say it wasn't. But they were also a team that didn't have one star threat on offense. Gonzaga has 3 players who average more than the best Florida player. And he could shadow Kispert but Kispert is one of the best offensive players in college basketball in years. Give me the guy who is in the 50/40/90 club. Florida has nobody who can guard Suggs either, especially if you're putting Brewer on Kispert. Let's not act like those two bigs were infallible either. I remember Greg Oden one handed absolutely destroying them that game. 25/12/4 on 67% shooting. Gonzaga has a higher rating on offense and defense according to Kenpom. They play at a much higher tempo than Florida did. And it's a guards game now, which you even admitted is the biggest advantage for Gonzaga.

 

[billd99s]

As a Zags fan, they are nine deep. You just haven't seen them play. Toughest game will be USC because they can bang inside. But can they stay with Zags speed, NO, Baylor, Yes, but Timme et al will kill them inside. Baylor's guards will be relentless just as the Zags are. Same size, leaping ability, outside shot ability, their games vs WV, OSU exposed their middle as weak. Michigan has two great inside guys who can't run with the Zags. Illinois buried them with their speed. Timme, Ayayah, Suggs, Kispert bang the boards and win. Who is left out. The fan, we can't witness them in person and see the junkyard, backyard attack the defensive boards Zags win.

 

[billd99s]

Heart of USC team was one of the best AAU teams in recent times. Outside shooting will win this game. Jumping the passing lanes will be the key for a USC victory as it was almost for BYU. Gonzaga will not be rattled by inside dunks and easy baskets, they will just run it down your throat after a made basket or pass it 8 times in 4 seconds or so and see if you can stop the shot. WCC teams are used to motion offense of Zags but no one other than Illinois runs it even close to their speed. Should be a great game as both teams are battle tested in NCAA, season, and AAU which this tournament resembles.

 

[dukedevilz]

For the first time in conference history, the WCC had 6 schools in the top 100. The conference has come a long ways in just the past 10 years. WCC is only narrowly behind the American Athletic in the conference ratings.

Ranking of conferences by AdjEM of team that's expected to go .500 in conference play

Conference	Rating	Conference	Rating
1	Big Ten Conference	+18.75	17	Ivy League	-4.63
2	Pac 12 Conference	+16.03	18	Big Sky Conference	-4.89
3	Big 12 Conference	+15.95	19	Colonial Athletic Association	-5.03
4	Southeastern Conference	+14.28	20	Horizon League	-5.76
5	Atlantic Coast Conference	+13.26	21	Sun Belt Conference	-6.07
6	Big East Conference	+13.12	22	Ohio Valley Conference	-6.99
7	American Athletic Conference	+8.46	23	Western Athletic Conference	-7.14
8	West Coast Conference	+7.97	24	Patriot League	-7.28
9	Atlantic 10 Conference	+6.01	25	America East Conference	-7.58
10	Missouri Valley Conference	+2.99	26	ASUN Conference	-8.25
11	Mountain West Conference	+2.76	27	Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference	-8.39
12	Mid American Conference	+1.26	28	Big South Conference	-9.12
13	Conference USA	+1.01	29	Northeast Conference	-10.91
14	Southern Conference	+1.01	30	Southland Conference	-12.23
15	Big West Conference	-2.30	31	Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference	-15.59
16	Summit League	-4.57	32	Southwestern Athletic Conference	-16.87

 

[sgrooms]

For the first time in conference history, the WCC had 6 schools in the top 100. The conference has come a long ways in just the past 10 years. WCC is only narrowly behind the American Athletic in the conference ratings.

Ranking of conferences by AdjEM of team that's expected to go .500 in conference play

Conference	Rating	Conference	Rating
1	Big Ten Conference	+18.75	17	Ivy League	-4.63
2	Pac 12 Conference	+16.03	18	Big Sky Conference	-4.89
3	Big 12 Conference	+15.95	19	Colonial Athletic Association	-5.03
4	Southeastern Conference	+14.28	20	Horizon League	-5.76
5	Atlantic Coast Conference	+13.26	21	Sun Belt Conference	-6.07
6	Big East Conference	+13.12	22	Ohio Valley Conference	-6.99
7	American Athletic Conference	+8.46	23	Western Athletic Conference	-7.14
8	West Coast Conference	+7.97	24	Patriot League	-7.28
9	Atlantic 10 Conference	+6.01	25	America East Conference	-7.58
10	Missouri Valley Conference	+2.99	26	ASUN Conference	-8.25
11	Mountain West Conference	+2.76	27	Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference	-8.39
12	Mid American Conference	+1.26	28	Big South Conference	-9.12
13	Conference USA	+1.01	29	Northeast Conference	-10.91
14	Southern Conference	+1.01	30	Southland Conference	-12.23
15	Big West Conference	-2.30	31	Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference	-15.59
16	Summit League	-4.57	32	Southwestern Athletic Conference	-16.87

I wonder how many of those teams would still be in the top 100 if Gonzaga didn't have one of the best all time efficiency ratings right now.

 

[JimboBBN]

2012 Kentucky and 2009 Carolina would clap this Zags team.

 

[dukedevilz]

I wonder how many of those teams would still be in the top 100 if Gonzaga didn't have one of the best all time efficiency ratings right now.

They have three teams in the 90's. I think Pepperdine could actually be much better than the 90th best team. Colbey Ross is a top 20 point guard. Kessler Edwards will play in the NBA. They beat BYU in the reg. season, and lost to them in OT in WCC Tournament. Lost to UCLA in 3 OTs. San Francisco and LMU are both debatable as far as being top 100 teams. The rankings might be inflated a little because of Gonzaga, not sure it would be more than 5-15 spots, though.

 

[Disco Hat]

15 years ain't 50 but the game has changed quite a bit since then.
Neither Horford or Noah were giant post threats. They Florida team was damn good. I'm not trying to say it wasn't. But they were also a team that didn't have one star threat on offense. Gonzaga has 3 players who average more than the best Florida player. And he could shadow Kispert but Kispert is one of the best offensive players in college basketball in years. Give me the guy who is in the 50/40/90 club. Florida has nobody who can guard Suggs either, especially if you're putting Brewer on Kispert. Let's not act like those two bigs were infallible either. I remember Greg Oden one handed absolutely destroying them that game. 25/12/4 on 67% shooting. Gonzaga has a higher rating on offense and defense according to Kenpom. They play at a much higher tempo than Florida did. And it's a guards game now, which you even admitted is the biggest advantage for Gonzaga.

the reason UF didn't have a single star offensive threat is that they shared the ball so well and were extremely efficient with their scoring. Every starter averaged double figures, yet no starter averaged more than 9.6 shots per game.

but every starter on that team was capable of taking over a game if necessary - they all went for 20+ points during multiple games during the year (except Noah, who had a high of 24 and then several games with 19).

Oden did kill UF during the championship game - he almost fouled out all three of Florida's main big men - but he did that by being an absolutely gigantic freak athlete who would catch the ball on the block and just overpower whoever they threw at him. Gonzaga has nobody that comes close to that version of Greg Oden. (He did that to people all season long, which deservedly got him drafted #1, and had he stayed healthy I think he would've been a major force in the league.)

look, I'm not telling you the Gators were infallible - they weren't, they had their flaws like anybody else. I'm just taking issue with your assertion that Gonzaga would run them off the court - in my opinion, it would be more likely to go the other way more often than not if those two teams ever matched up.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Great call OP..

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

I wonder how many of those teams would still be in the top 100 if Gonzaga didn't have one of the best all time efficiency ratings right now.

?????

 

[sgrooms]

?????

How can I help you?

 

[thebasketballreasons]

They are the best team in the country, but I feel Baylor is better prepared for the final four games as they have gone through a tougher conference as well as a tougher path to the title game. Gonzaga hasnt played a worthy opponents thus far, and it will take them a while to adjust to Baylor's level of intensity. If they fall behind by a significant deficit, it may be too little too late to overcome. This was exactly what happened to Houston, took them an entire half to adjust after they've bullied through weak double digit seeded teams in their region. Gonzaga will do much better than Houston though.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Dive into their body of work. They got a huge boost early in the season from beating Kansas, Iowa and Virginia when those teams were highly ranked. Looking back, none of those 3 teams were near as good as we thought. West Virginia and BYU were the only other good teams they played and both pushed them hard (BYU did once). Don’t get me wrong, they are good. But, it seems like the media is portraying them as a nearly unbeatable juggernaut and I think we’re going to find out that’s not the case.

I agree.

F*** Gonzaga

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Suggs could be the difference maker...

He will find life a little more difficult against Baylor

 

[boilerzz]

Suggs just takes the talent to another level. Gonzaga hasn't had a guy like that before. and it shows when he's on the floor.

I’ll just bump this post here.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Gonzaga has to.play D.
I was busy with other things and only saw pieces of that game.
The 6-7 minutes of game action I saw in the first half Creighton was getting theirs way too easy. Shouldn't be letting those points up in a Sweet 16 game.

I checked the score later and Gonzaga was up by 20 and Creighton only had around 50 points with around 10 minutes left in the second half...

Maybe they cracked down on the defensive end.

One of these days Gonzaga is going to have trouble scoring and they need to lean on their D....
Half court defense. Not going to always create those Turnovers.

Need a complete basketball team to win a championship.
But you always take the team slanted towards the defensive end because there aren't that many legit scorers in college basketball. Players that can get theirs every night.
Can't expect to run the efficient offenses you see in the NBA.

Like I said
They are going to have to learn how to play D....

Came very close to costing them.

UCLA could play any style

Went from scoring 51 to 91...

 

[duckboy33]

I wonder how many of those teams would still be in the top 100 if Gonzaga didn't have one of the best all time efficiency ratings right now.

Not many of them. Losing to Gonzaga doesn’t cost you much in those kind of metrics as it is the expected result

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Gonzaga is a bully. There isn't any question in anyone's mind. But it is just hard for college teams to be unbeatable.

Maybe Gonzaga caught a break. The refs helped them.
Gonzaga doesn't play football it helps. If the rest of us leave Gonzaga is the one of those schools left holding the bag with the NCAA.


Gonzaga gives up way too many easy baskets...
We will see. The offensive efficiency is up there.
When they get rolling downhill they are hard do stop


Have to ask yourself?
How often and now long can Baylor keep Gonzaga from scoring?

Those guards are nasty.
Plus Marc Vital looks like a DE. Crazy how he didn't end up on the football field. Some guys just love basketball.

 

[DuckDuckGoose00]

Like I said
They are going to have to learn how to play D....

Came very close to costing them.

UCLA could play any style

Went from scoring 51 to 91...

This is actually a bad take, UCLA was 9-9 from 15-18 feet at the top of the key, UCLA put up a heroic effort, and as a coach, you live with them taking those shots. GU has a good defense, and that’s why UCLA settled for long range 2’s all game.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Like I said
They are going to have to learn how to play D....

Came very close to costing them.

UCLA could play any style

Went from scoring 51 to 91...

They are 8th in AdjD.....They locked up a Top 15 offense in USC...Made them look bad. Last night, UCLA just made shots---tough shots at times. THose things happen. Gonzaga is way undervalued defensively. Suggs is a very good defender....Thing is, GU's offense gets all the lime light. But their defense is a Top 10 defense, that simply gets overshadowed by an elite offense.

 

[ExitFlagger]

This is actually a bad take, UCLA was 9-9 from 15-18 feet at the top of the key, UCLA put up a heroic effort, and as a coach, you live with them taking those shots. GU has a good defense, and that’s why UCLA settled for long range 2’s all game.

Long-range 2s are apparently "easy" buckets now.

 

[ExitFlagger]

Bad bet, Sheriff.

Coin flip.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood]

Long-range 2s are apparently "easy" buckets now.

They are for me

 

[BasketBallJunkie-UK]

I'm a homer, but our 96 team might have been better than our 2012. Either would be tough for a Gonzaga W. I think both teams played defense that would have been difficult for the Zags.

Suggs is one of those point guards that is gonna get his against anybody. He takes the Zags to another level. I think Baylor beats them. Both are balanced on offense. I think Baylor's defense is better. UCLA had basically 2 options and they had no problem scoring on the Zags.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Bad bet, Sheriff.

Coin flip.

View embedded media

There was one taken by Campbell that shouldn't have went in.
But Jaquez and Juzang been making those shots all tournament.

Heard Grant Hill say it best. Gets to their spots
If you watch any great scorer you see how they get to their spots on the court.


This was why I was high on UCLA.
Because I saw them as a team that could score....

Saw a little in December. Then when they played Michigan State I was shocked. You can tell they could be a dangerous team because of of their toughness mixed with scorers.



This is why stats in basketball don't tell the full story
Remove the season stats. Just look at the tournament

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Great thread will read again