34 consecutive 20 win seasons
- Thread starter ThePhog08
- Start date
And done, largely, in the best basketball conference in the country; certainly not every year, but arguably over the course of those 33 years, it’s been as good as any.
Real Talk question: has there ever been any club or team more consistently great over 3+ decades?
Certainly the Patriots and UCLA were better over shorter periods…but over 33 years?
Crazy consistency. This will be the 23rd consecutive year where they'll be a 4 seed or higher.
Legit KU fans are whiney when we were depressed about our mediocre 4 seed seasons. It could be a lot worse.
Just within the past three years we've seen Carolina and Kentucky field teams with losing records - and Duke missed the tournament in 2021. So yeah, I think you guys are doing okay.
When ranking teams historically, I always have a personal bias toward consistency rather than short bursts of some elite years where you win big (probably the Illini fan in me...), so my rankings always have Kansas really high. Their longevity is truly impressive.
# of titles hurts KU. But KU has everything else. A big flex for KU is Dean Smith and Adolf Rupp playing for Kansas. Most all history of College bball has roads through Lawrence.
Again, I am probably biased given that Illinois is probably the best all-time program to never win a National Championship, but the Tournament is such a crapshoot ... imagining these two hypothetical programs, I pick Program A as a better all-time program every single time:
Program A
National Championships: 1 (1991)
Final Fours: 6
NCAAT Appearances: 34
All-Time Winning Pctg.: .660
Program B
National Championships: 3 (1962, 1964 and 1972)
Final Fours: 4
NCAAT Appearances: 27
All-Time Winning Pctg.: .600
Again, that is fake/simplified/hypothetical, but I pick Program A and it's not particularly close in my mind. Feast-or-famine programs like OSU are less impressive to me than a program like Arizona, and I think Illinois has a better history than several programs that have won an NC. Just my biased opinion, but that is why I always have Kansas as #3 all-time behind Kentucky and UNC.
Program A
National Championships: 1 (1991)
Final Fours: 6
NCAAT Appearances: 34
All-Time Winning Pctg.: .660
Program B
National Championships: 3 (1962, 1964 and 1972)
Final Fours: 4
NCAAT Appearances: 27
All-Time Winning Pctg.: .600
Again, that is fake/simplified/hypothetical, but I pick Program A and it's not particularly close in my mind. Feast-or-famine programs like OSU are less impressive to me than a program like Arizona, and I think Illinois has a better history than several programs that have won an NC. Just my biased opinion, but that is why I always have Kansas as #3 all-time behind Kentucky and UNC.
UCLA has objectively done better than KU in the tournament, though. Even if you remove the number of banners.
Tournament Appearances: UCLA, 51-50
Sweet 16: UCLA, 36-32
Elite 8: Kansas, 25-23
Final Four: UCLA, 19-16
Title Game: UCLA, 13-10
NCAA Champions: UCLA, 11-4
Right, but Kansas does better in consistency stats, such as having a way better all-time winning percentage (.729 vs. .690) or way more weeks in the AP top 25 (833 vs. 730), and those Tournament stats are very even overall besides the glaring 11 vs. 4 NCAA Championships.
I definitely don't disregard accomplishments several decades ago, but I personally tend to perhaps count each decade back as just a tiny bit less relevant (i.e., a championship in 1989 is more meaningful than one in 1979, which is more meaningful than one in 1969). 10 of UCLA's 11 titles are from 1975 or before; since then, KU has won 3 NCs to UCLA's 1 and been to 10 Final Fours to UCLA's 5. I also have a bit of an appreciation for a program that isn't too reliant on one coach for the bulk of its history ... definitely not a deal breaker but perhaps a tie breaker for Kansas in my personal opinion.
I'd say it's very close overall, and you can make an argument for UCLA at #3 and KU at #4 (with Duke the clear #5). I just personally prefer KU due to their astounding consistency. On another note, I would have put Louisville at #6 with Indiana at #7 all-time before the last few years, but I think that has flipped back. After those 7, I think the debate gets really murky.
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Here are two tables that I created, one for all-time programs and one for the best programs of the modern era. If you're weighting recent years more, then you could argue that Duke leapfrogs Kansas. More weight for the recent years would also inflate the likes of Gonzaga and Florida.... And if more emphasis is on all-time winning percentage, conference titles, and regular season success, then you'll have teams like Princeton, Western Kentucky, and BYU much higher in the rankings. As it is, all three are currently in my top 50. Can't imagine having any of them higher than they already are.
I like 1939 as a baseline year because it makes the comparability factor so much easier. KU has 22 more seasons than UCLA, for example. And the strength of schedules obviously isn't equivalent. Maryland, for instance, only had 5 conference titles in the ACC over a 60 year period. The tournament does a better job of neutralizing the strengths of schedule. It's obviously not perfectly equal because you don't play the same teams, but it's a better representation because you're playing great teams each round; you don't luck yourself into a title game. The metrics I've included are heavily weighted on tournament success. But, a title in UCLA's days actually are worth less points because you're not given credit for games you didn't win (i.e. Round of 32). I've got other metrics like conference titles, conference tournament titles (since 2002), top 10/25 finishes, .800+ winning season, sub .500/sub .300 seasons, losing records.
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The 3 highest rated teams in my table without a title are:
1. Gonzaga
2. St. John's
3. Illinois
But, if you want more emphasis on regular season success and success in recent years, seems like you'd be okay with Gonzaga ahead of Illinois.
1. Gonzaga
2. St. John's
3. Illinois
But, if you want more emphasis on regular season success and success in recent years, seems like you'd be okay with Gonzaga ahead of Illinois.
I mean, I think this is necessarily a subjective exercise, and it's had to come up with a good "points" system. Illinois deserves some credit for battling it out against Indiana, Purdue, MSU, OSU, etc. for years while Gonzaga is playing small programs. Not sure exactly how much to weigh, but I would personally put Illinois above both of those programs.
Final Fours: ILL 5, GONZ 2, SJU 2
Elite Eights: ILL 9, SJU 6, GONZ 5
Sweet Sixteens: ILL 13, GONZ 12, SJU 9
NCAAT App.: ILL 32, SJU 30, GONZ 24
All-Time Winning Pctg.: GONZ .665, SJU .645, ILL .641
Weeks in AP Poll: ILL 489, GONZ 324, SJU 291
30-Win Seasons: GONZ 7, LL 2, SJU 2
25-Win Seasons: GONZ 22, ILL 9, SJU 7
20-Win Seasons: SJU 40, ILL 35, GONZ 31
Losing Seasons Since 1980: GONZ 2, ILL 6, SJU 13
It might look like you could pick any of them, but what would Illinois' or St. John's all-time winning percentage, 30-win seasons, 25-win seasons, etc. look like if they played in the WCC instead of the Big Ten or Big East? How relevant is it that 13 of St. John's 40 20-win seasons came before 1960 and yet 9 of their 13 losing seasons have occurred in the last 20 years?
That is why I prefer a subjective, "blended" approach. While modern results should be weighed a bit more heavily (Florida's 2 NCs are a lot more impressive than Oklahoma State's 2 NCs way back several decades ago), I also think Johnny-Come-Latelys like Gonzaga should be pushed down a bit (they'd never even made the Tournament until 1995 and had zero Final Fours just a few years ago). On that same note, yes Duke is a better program than Kansas in the modern era and Kansas might be better all-time, but the question for me personally is more like, who is the better all-time program if we put a bit more weight on modern accomplishments but still consider longevity? I do think the "power conference" teams should generally be given a break in some categories, too, which is why I can respect relying mostly on Tournament success for rankings, as it's where we are all on a level playing field. I'm actually a fan of leaving conference championships out of my personal rankings all together.
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Not 100% sure, but I don't think the NCAAT results are gonna back this one up. The recent demise of the ACC may help you trend here somewhere in the future though.
But I can see how a fan of KU can get a little swept away with all this. No doubt KU is awesome.
I don’t disagree with the point of this thread. Kansas is and has been phenomenal. But I disagree a lot a lot with the quoted paragraph.
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