Duke 2019 vs Michigan 92 and 93

[KStateFootball82]

Is Duke the closest thing to the Fab Five, since the Fab Five? Is it better? Prob need to win the natty to say that.

Haven’t seen 3 of the top 5 players on Rivals go to the same school since I believe that Michigan team. We didn’t have rivals back then, but the recruiting souces in that time period had Webber, Rose, and Howard were top 5 and King was top 15, and Jackson top 100.

Zion, Reddish and RJ top 5. Jones top 15 and the Baker guy top 50.

Looks pretty similar.

 

[Sevro]

2009 UNC mauls this years Duke team

 

[KStateFootball82]

2009 UNC mauls this years Duke team

How

 

[DallasJayhawk]

2008 KU mauls this Duke team also BUT. 2015 UK is still the best team.

 

[KStateFootball82]

2008 KU mauls this Duke team also BUT. 2015 UK is still the best team.

Many better teams since. Wasn’t my question.

 

[829305]

This Duke team is nothing special. Comparing them to The Fab Five is laughable, imo. The ESPN hype machine doing some serious work.

 

[Sevro]

How

UNC 2009 was such a complete college team. UNC 2009 beats UNC 2018 by 25. Same for 2018 Duke.

 

[Afamu]

I love people who make predictions with not one clue how the game would be played.

 

[lurkeraspect84]

 

[KStateFootball82]

How

UNC 2009 was such a complete college team. UNC 2009 beats UNC 2018 by 25. Same for 2018 Duke.

Again not talking best team. Talking closest thing based on

- top recruits as frosh playing together and representing team

- top recruits being all so high and almost identical to the Michigan recruiting rankings mix with the FF.

- level of success thereafter, which is still incomplete but we have a pretty good sample size

 

[olong01]

My honest opinion is that I don't think you can compare this Duke team to a UNC 2009 team or a 2008 KU team that were senior lead. This team is more comparable to the FAB 5 or Kentucky 2012 team. I'm still not sure that 2012 Kentucky team is as good as this Duke team. That Kentucky squad didn't have a crazy strength of schedule the way this Duke team had this season. One thing I will give that Kentucky team is that they may have been a little deeper. But if you were to look at the starting 5, I'm going with this years Duke team all day and twice on Sunday.

 

[tw3301]

If Reddish ever played like a top 5 recruit other than against Kentucky and a half against UNC/FSU (regular season) I would give Duke the nod. Unfortunately he doesn't.

 

[olong01]

If Reddish ever played like a top 5 recruit other than against Kentucky and a half against UNC/FSU (regular season) I would give Duke the nod. Unfortunately he doesn't.

Yeah you know it's weird. When Zion is on the court he gets very passive and only settles for 3s. And when his 3 isn't falling he gets very pouty and let's it affect his entire game. Reddish also need to strengthen up. He tends to play a little soft sometimes. His upside is through the roof though. He just hasn't figured it out mentally yet. RJ, Zion and Tre Jones are some bulldogs though. If Reddish has that mentality there wouldn't be any team that would be within 20 points of them. We saw it against Kentucky and after that has been very spotty.

 

[TheDude1]

Uh, isn't the point of this thread about freshman teams?

Isn't that obvious?

Not sure how anyone didn't get that, to be honest.

 

[AWilli6995]

How

Better guards.

 

[AWilli6995]

I love people who make predictions with not one clue how the game would be played.

Your fan base does it, hell every fan base does it. Eyeroll

 

[SpartanRock]

Is Duke the closest thing to the Fab Five, since the Fab Five? Is it better? Prob need to win the natty to say that.

Haven’t seen 3 of the top 5 players on Rivals go to the same school since I believe that Michigan team. We didn’t have rivals back then, but the recruiting souces in that time period had Webber, Rose, and Howard were top 5 and King was top 15, and Jackson top 100.

Zion, Reddish and RJ top 5. Jones top 15 and the Baker guy top 50.

Looks pretty similar.

And why do you suppose 3 of the top 5 went to Michigan?? SMH

 

[829305]

Uh, isn't the point of this thread about freshman teams?

Isn't that obvious?

Not sure how anyone didn't get that, to be honest.

Which is why I said it's laughable to compare them to the Fab Five. For one, the Fab Five had to compete against a much, much higher level of competition. This Duke team wouldn't sniff #1 in 1992 or 1993, not even close. Laughable and hyperbolic to think so.

 

[GE Nole]

Zion is the best college player out of 2019 Duke and 92 Michigan. But I think the Fab Five had a tougher mentality. Tre Jones might be similar to Jalen Rose, but the "other 2" for the Fab Five are much tougher and consistent than the "other 2" for Duke.

One advantage Duke does have is that freshmen these days come in more physically prepared and ready for the Tourney grind. Idk. It's close.

 

[829305]

Zion is the best college player out of 2019 Duke and 92 Michigan. But I think the Fab Five had a tougher mentality. Tre Jones might be similar to Jalen Rose, but the "other 2" for the Fab Five are much tougher and consistent than the "other 2" for Duke.

One advantage Duke does have is that freshmen these days come in more physically prepared and ready for the Tourney grind. Idk. It's close.

You just compared Tre Jones to Jalen? Man oh man. You're a really good poster, so I won't use the laugh emoji.

 

[TheDude1]

Which is why I said it's laughable to compare them to the Fab Five. For one, the Fab Five had to compete against a much, much higher level of competition. This Duke team wouldn't sniff #1 in 1992 or 1993, not even close. Laughable and hyperbolic to think so.

Eh, I don't think it is laughable at all. The Fab Five, in their freshmen year, were very good.

(pts/rebounds/assists)

Jalen Rose averaged 18/4/4
Chris Webber averaged 16/10/2
Juwan Howard averaged 11/6/2
Jimmy King averaged 10/3/2
Ray Jackson averaged 5/3/2

To compare:

RJ Barret is averaging 23/8/4
Zion Williamson is averaging 22/9/2
Cam Reddish is averaging 14/4/2
Tre Jones is averaging 9/4/5
Joey Baker (the weak link) is averaging... well...

But if you look at the numbers...

RJ > Jalen
Zion > Chris
Cam = Juwan
Tre either > (depending on how much you value assists) or = Jimmy
Joey < Ray

But beyond that simple comparison, beyond discussion of the relative strengths of teams and the era and all of that... it's pretty clear that, judging by the numbers and because people like to compare and because this Duke class is maybe the most impactful freshman class in a long time... well, I think you can absolutely compare the two. No matter which side you have coming out ahead, I certainly don't think it is laughable or hyperbolic.

 

[GE Nole]

You just compared Tre Jones to Jalen? Man oh man. You're a really good poster, so I won't use the laugh emoji.

I compared their toughness.

 

[829305]

Eh, I don't think it is laughable at all. The Fab Five, in their freshmen year, were very good.

(pts/rebounds/assists)

Jalen Rose averaged 18/4/4
Chris Webber averaged 16/10/2
Juwan Howard averaged 11/6/2
Jimmy King averaged 10/3/2
Ray Jackson averaged 5/3/2

To compare:

RJ Barret is averaging 23/8/4
Zion Williamson is averaging 22/9/2
Cam Reddish is averaging 14/4/2
Tre Jones is averaging 9/4/5
Joey Baker (the weak link) is averaging... well...

But if you look at the numbers...

RJ > Jalen
Zion > Chris
Cam = Juwan
Tre either > (depending on how much you value assists) or = Jimmy
Joey < Ray

But beyond that simple comparison, beyond discussion of the relative strengths of teams and the era and all of that... it's pretty clear that, judging by the numbers and because people like to compare and because this Duke class is maybe the most impactful freshman class in a long time... well, I think you can absolutely compare the two. No matter which side you have coming out ahead, I certainly don't think it is laughable or hyperbolic.

You completely ignore the competition level. College basketball is the one sport that the product has become worse, because kids don't stick around in college like they used to. Comparing just points/rebounds/assists is short-sighted, unless you're a simpleton.

 

[829305]

I compared their toughness.

But, there really is no comparison between those two other than that, I guess. Barrett would've been the comparison, imo. Jalen was 6'8 and an absolute stud.

 

[denniden]

Yeah you know it's weird. When Zion is on the court he gets very passive and only settles for 3s. And when his 3 isn't falling he gets very pouty and let's it affect his entire game. Reddish also need to strengthen up. He tends to play a little soft sometimes. His upside is through the roof though. He just hasn't figured it out mentally yet. RJ, Zion and Tre Jones are some bulldogs though. If Reddish has that mentality there wouldn't be any team that would be within 20 points of them. We saw it against Kentucky and after that has been very spotty.

I would argue that Camerons' best offense is when he "settles" for wide open 3 point looks. It is when he tries to create off the bounce that make him a turnover machine. At this point in the year, he just has to play solid and not try to do too much. You are 100% correct, he plays soft. In the sense that he can't hold on to the ball when driving to basket. Not all the time but often enough to be a glaring weakness and a detriment to the team on offense. His defense has been good, but it would be nice to see some improvement from him offensively at some point. Though I think that may be limited to making a big shot here and there and living with the erratic play otherwise.

 

[bignish]

You completely ignore the competition level. College basketball is the one sport that the product has become worse, because kids don't stick around in college like they used to. Comparing just points/rebounds/assists is short-sighted, unless you're a simpleton.

CBB is also one sport where having the most top end talent is supremely important.

Barrett and Zion are up there for the greatest duos in college basketball history and Zion might be the greatest player of all time.

Some other amazing pairs are Rose/Webber (1992), Hurley/Laettner (1992), Felton/May (2005), Williams/Battier (2001) and Lawson/Hansbrough (2009).

 

[TheDude1]

You completely ignore the competition level. College basketball is the one sport that the product has become worse, because kids don't stick around in college like they used to. Comparing just points/rebounds/assists is short-sighted, unless you're a simpleton.

Wait wait wait.

So your argument is that we cannot compare players because guys don't stick around?

Ignoring the fact that players back then didn't necessarily stay all four years (for example, the Fab Five)... over the last ten years, how many teams have had OADs? A dozen, maybe two? And often some years apart? How many teams have had more than maybe 2 or 3 OADs at a time? Maybe two... Duke and Kentucky? And I know for Duke it's only been maybe three times that that has happened.

So is your argument that, with there being 352 D1 men's basketball teams, and each team playing nearly 30 games a year, and against only a relatively small handful of teams that actually have players that leave early (I don't think the Fab Five playing against Rice and Wisconsin and Northwestern and Iowa and Minnesota and Virginia Tech and Temple and most other teams that didn't have many guys leaving early in the 1991-92 season were facing significantly different teams than they would nowadays) suddenly we cannot compare stats that are accumulated over a 30 game span, and most of which are played against teams that aren't terribly impacted by guys leaving early? That seems very myopic. What's your cut off for when we can or cannot compare players? What year do we stop being able to compare?

I get there is some difference in competition. But with all of the understood and agreed-upon difficulties in comparing guys from different eras, I'm not sure that the difference in a few teams that have a couple of guys leave earlier suddenly makes comparing huge, season-long, averaged stats the act of a simpleton or laughable or hyperbolic. I think maybe you are being a bit over-aggressive and confrontational about something that doesn't warrant it.

 

[SpartyRBS]

This Duke team is nothing special. Comparing them to The Fab Five is laughable, imo. The ESPN hype machine doing some serious work.

The Fab 5 in their two years together never won the Big Ten or the NCAAT. They won a good amount of games and made the final four both years but didn’t win any hardware.

They were a flashy team and the Michigan Media Machine has propped them up over the years. This Duke team would beat them.

91-92 24-9 (11-7) 4th place Big Ten
92-93 31-5 (15-3) 2nd place Big Ten

I realize teams were deeper back then but eh, I’d take a lot of one and done style teams over the Fab 5 in that 91-92 season.

Fab 4
93-94 24-8 (13-5) 2nd place Big Ten

Fab 2
94-95 17-14 (11-7) 4th place Big Ten

 

[GE Nole]

But, there really is no comparison between those two other than that, I guess. Barrett would've been the comparison, imo. Jalen was 6'8 and an absolute stud.

I'm not sure what you're saying. I made a statement about Duke's freshman, outside of Zion, not being as mentally tough and consistent as the Fab Five. Then I said, well maybe Tre Jones is similar to Rose in terms of toughness, but the others aren't.

That's it. I didn't compare Jones to Rose in any other way.

 

[829305]

Wait wait wait.

So your argument is that we cannot compare players because guys don't stick around?

Ignoring the fact that players back then didn't necessarily stay all four years (for example, the Fab Five)... over the last ten years, how many teams have had OADs? A dozen, maybe two? And often some years apart? How many teams have had more than maybe 2 or 3 OADs at a time? Maybe two... Duke and Kentucky? And I know for Duke it's only been maybe three times that that has happened.

So is your argument that, with there being 352 D1 men's basketball teams, and each team playing nearly 30 games a year, and against only a relatively small handful of teams that actually have players that leave early (I don't think the Fab Five playing against Rice and Wisconsin and Northwestern and Iowa and Minnesota and Virginia Tech and Temple and most other teams that didn't have many guys leaving early in the 1991-92 season were facing significantly different teams than they would nowadays) suddenly we cannot compare stats that are accumulated over a 30 game span, and most of which are played against teams that aren't terribly impacted by guys leaving early? That seems very myopic. What's your cut off for when we can or cannot compare players? What year do we stop being able to compare?

I get there is some difference in competition. But with all of the understood and agreed-upon difficulties in comparing guys from different eras, I'm not sure that the difference in a few teams that have a couple of guys leave earlier suddenly makes comparing huge, season-long, averaged stats the act of a simpleton or laughable or hyperbolic. I think maybe you are being a bit over-aggressive and confrontational about something that doesn't warrant it.

You take my agressive/abrasive posting a little too seriously at times, but you aren't the only one. No worries. I also am not the best to judge this Duke team, as I don't think they are anything special. They're very good, and maybe the best team in the land, but they're not world-beaters, at all. If they played in the early 90s, they wouldn't be the favorite to win it all. This season, they're a huge favorite, and I'm just not sure why.

 

[829305]

The Fab 5 in their two years together never won the Big Ten or the NCAAT. They won a good amount of games and made the final four both years but didn’t win any hardware.

They were a flashy team and the Michigan Media Machine has propped them up over the years. This Duke team would beat them.

91-92 24-9 (11-7) 4th place Big Ten
92-93 31-5 (15-3) 2nd place Big Ten

I realize teams were deeper back then but eh, I’d take a lot of one and done style teams over the Fab 5 in that 91-92 season.

Fab 4
93-94 24-8 (13-5) 2nd place Big Ten

Fab 2
94-95 17-14 (11-7) 4th place Big Ten

You don't like Michigan. I don't like Duke. But, as I stated above, I don't think this Duke team deserves to be the odds on favorite they are to so many. Prove me wrong, Dukies.

 

[RollTide7277]

Best freshman class I recall is '06 UNC. Frasor, Ginyard, Green, and Hansbrough were definitely no where near as hyped as other classes and yet won ACC that year. Roy's best job IMO.

 

[nptb]

My honest opinion is that I don't think you can compare this Duke team to a UNC 2009 team or a 2008 KU team that were senior lead. This team is more comparable to the FAB 5 or Kentucky 2012 team. I'm still not sure that 2012 Kentucky team is as good as this Duke team. That Kentucky squad didn't have a crazy strength of schedule the way this Duke team had this season. One thing I will give that Kentucky team is that they may have been a little deeper. But if you were to look at the starting 5, I'm going with this years Duke team all day and twice on Sunday.

Never go full ******.

 

[wrbchWolfPack81]

Would they call a timeout when they have none?

 

[bignish]

You take my agressive/abrasive posting a little too seriously at times, but you aren't the only one. No worries. I also am not the best to judge this Duke team, as I don't think they are anything special. They're very good, and maybe the best team in the land, but they're not world-beaters, at all. If they played in the early 90s, they wouldn't be the favorite to win it all. This season, they're a huge favorite, and I'm just not sure why.

How can you say that with a straight face? Duke lost 1 game all year at full strength. They humiliated Kentucky by 34, beat Texas Tech by double digits on a neutral court, beat Cuse by 10 in the Carrier Dome and beat UVA by double digits @ UVA.

They have a generational player, another 1st Team All-American, a HOF coach and perhaps the best defensive guard in college basketball.

 

[nptb]

CBB is also one sport where having the most top end talent is supremely important.

Barrett and Zion are up there for the greatest duos in college basketball history and Zion might be the greatest player of all time.

Some other amazing pairs are Rose/Webber (1992), Hurley/Laettner (1992), Felton/May (2005), Williams/Battier (2001) and Lawson/Hansbrough (2009).

Davis and Gilchrist put the clamps on most of this list. GilChrist couldn't guard Felton or Lawson because those ore two of the fastest guards in recent memory.

 

[TheDude1]

You take my agressive/abrasive posting a little too seriously at times, but you aren't the only one. No worries. I also am not the best to judge this Duke team, as I don't think they are anything special. They're very good, and maybe the best team in the land, but they're not world-beaters, at all. If they played in the early 90s, they wouldn't be the favorite to win it all. This season, they're a huge favorite, and I'm just not sure why.

Ah, okay, yeah, I thought you seemed a bit pissed; if that was just sort of rustling, got it.

I don't think they are world-beaters. I think the credit Duke gets is two-fold.

First... we haven't lost many games. How many have we lost at full strength... one? We were without one of the most dominant freshmen in history for a chunk of them, and without both our starting PG and our best three point shooter against Syracuse.

Second, part of it is the POTENTIAL of this Duke team. If Cam Reddish finally has it click, I think this Duke team becomes far and away the toughest team in the land. As of right now... I don't know, we look very good, but not like the 2015 UK team or something. If I had to pick a single team to win, I'd take Duke, but not in a runaway, unless a few guys other than RJ and Zion step up.

 

[829305]

Ah, okay, yeah, I thought you seemed a bit pissed; if that was just sort of rustling, got it.

I don't think they are world-beaters. I think the credit Duke gets is two-fold.

First... we haven't lost many games. How many have we lost at full strength... one? We were without one of the most dominant freshmen in history for a chunk of them, and without both our starting PG and our best three point shooter against Syracuse.

Second, part of it is the POTENTIAL of this Duke team. If Cam Reddish finally has it click, I think this Duke team becomes far and away the toughest team in the land. As of right now... I don't know, we look very good, but not like the 2015 UK team or something. If I had to pick a single team to win, I'd take Duke, but not in a runaway, unless a few guys other than RJ and Zion step up.

I won't argue with the potential, at all. Reddish just doesn't seem right though.

 

[829305]

How can you say that with a straight face? Duke lost 1 game all year at full strength. They humiliated Kentucky by 34, beat Texas Tech by double digits on a neutral court, beat Cuse by 10 in the Carrier Dome and beat UVA by double digits @ UVA.

They have a generational player, another 1st Team All-American, a HOF coach and perhaps the best defensive guard in college basketball.

Because the Heels are just as good as you, and we aren't anything real special either.

 

[bignish]

Because the Heels are just as good as you, and we aren't anything real special either.

Huh? This is the best Carolina team I've seen the 2009 Heels with Lawson/Green/Hansbrough.

Cam Johnson is what everyone hoped Justin Jackson would someday become, Kenny Williams is an incredible defender and give me Coby White over Joel Berry all day.

This UNC team can shoot the 3, defend, rebound and has talent/skill at every position.

I still think Duke is about 5-8 points better; we just played like crap on Friday.