Wiggins>Tatum and Jabari Parker

ThePhog08

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
May 2, 2008
4,578
879
113
Had to put Jabari's first and last name to remind everyone who this even is. Wiggs shut down Tatum. His defense is special.
 

ThePhog08

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
May 2, 2008
4,578
879
113
Jabari's defense, or lack thereof, still makes me angry.
Obviously this thread is a troll due to offseason boredom. But crazy how these dudes lost to Mercer and South Carolina. I don't understand how Bagley, Okafor and Parker have been absolute busts
 

dukedevilz

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2002
9,018
11,742
113
Obviously this thread is a troll due to offseason boredom. But crazy how these dudes lost to Mercer and South Carolina. I don't understand how Bagley, Okafor and Parker have been absolute busts

Jabari Parker is a horrible, horrible defender. That's kind of Jah's issue too, more focused on him defending the PnR. Jabari had trouble keeping track of his defender and the ball simultaneously. Great offensive talents, though.

Not sure about Bagley. He's very skilled. In college he could dribble coast-to-coast and make a basket, he had a ridiculous second jump on rebounds, and he shot close to 40% from 3. He could get off whatever shot he wanted while at Duke. His shooting has suffered a bit in the pros and he's had injuries. Looks like he won't be an all-star at this point, but should still be a productive pro.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tw3301

ThePhog08

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
May 2, 2008
4,578
879
113
Jabari Parker is a horrible, horrible defender. That's kind of Jah's issue too, more focused on him defending the PnR. Jabari had trouble keeping track of his defender and the ball simultaneously. Great offensive talents, though.

Not sure about Bagley. He's very skilled. In college he could dribble coast-to-coast and make a basket, he had a ridiculous second jump on rebounds, and he shot close to 40% from 3. He could get off whatever shot he wanted while at Duke. His shooting has suffered a bit in the pros and he's had injuries. Looks like he won't be an all-star at this point, but should still be a productive pro.
Man, the Pistons could have Bagley, Cunningham and either Jaden Ivey, Shaeden Sharpe or Keegan Murray. Nice little core. Bagley could find a good little role if he doesn't mind being 3rd or 4th option.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dukedevilz

UL_1986

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2018
9,046
6,947
113
Greater than Parker, yes. Who cares. Better than Tatum. Nope.
You watch the series? Clamped tf out of Tatum. Jaylen Brown saved his ass or they would’ve been blown out in a few of the games.
 

AWilli6995

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Jan 21, 2005
7,183
3,394
113
Greensboro, NC
Team
North Carolina
You watch the series? Clamped tf out of Tatum. Jaylen Brown saved his ass or they would’ve been blown out in a few of the games.


Tatum went to sleep the last 2 games and that was because of Wiggins. Both he and Brown need to work on their handle because they had the majority of their turnovers. I like Tatum a lot but he bitched and complain way to much as if he wanted the refs to bail him out for his lackluster play.
 

UL_1986

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2018
9,046
6,947
113
Tatum is a player no doubt. Hell of a talent, and is solid in most facets of the game. But damn, he choked down the stretch. Another learning experience though, and he’ll be better bc of it. Wiggins had an outstanding series, and really proved himself as a reliable second option and a guy that’s gonna get boards and play solid defense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KisteK

Villian07

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2015
6,102
3,469
113
Gotta give the defense credit.

same way the celtics d made KD look like shit, the warriors (wiggins) did to tatum. Doesnt mean they arent great players. Plus dude is only 23. Id go ja, luka, tatum if im rankin the youngins.
 

Ingersol

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Mar 20, 2020
349
341
63
Gotta give the defense credit.

same way the celtics d made KD look like shit, the warriors (wiggins) did to tatum. Doesnt mean they arent great players. Plus dude is only 23. Id go ja, luka, tatum if im rankin the youngins.

Pretty clearly Luka, Tatum, Ja
 

GE Nole

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
30,388
14,343
113
Jabari Parker is a horrible, horrible defender. That's kind of Jah's issue too, more focused on him defending the PnR. Jabari had trouble keeping track of his defender and the ball simultaneously. Great offensive talents, though.

Not sure about Bagley. He's very skilled. In college he could dribble coast-to-coast and make a basket, he had a ridiculous second jump on rebounds, and he shot close to 40% from 3. He could get off whatever shot he wanted while at Duke. His shooting has suffered a bit in the pros and he's had injuries. Looks like he won't be an all-star at this point, but should still be a productive pro.

Same thing is gonna happen to Banchero. They are all soft. They have immense offensive skill, but that skill allowed them to dominate peers when they were developing and they never had to take on that “dawg” mentality.

Some guys can eventually flip the switch, but that’s tough to do.

I don’t mean this to be a flame, but that’s just the type of player K seemed to drift toward in the last 10 years. Super talented guys but somewhere between Carlos Boozer and Jabari Parker, a lot of Duke teams lost that edge of toughness.
 

GE Nole

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
30,388
14,343
113
You watch the series? Clamped tf out of Tatum. Jaylen Brown saved his ass or they would’ve been blown out in a few of the games.

To be fair, it’s a little hard to compare a guy being asked to carry the load of a team that has basically zero finals experience, versus a guy who gets to play a supporting role on a team full of championship DNA, spearheaded by one of the best team leaders in the history of the NBA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KisteK and UL_1986

dukedevilz

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2002
9,018
11,742
113
Same thing is gonna happen to Banchero. They are all soft. They have immense offensive skill, but that skill allowed them to dominate peers when they were developing and they never had to take on that “dawg” mentality.

Some guys can eventually flip the switch, but that’s tough to do.

I don’t mean this to be a flame, but that’s just the type of player K seemed to drift toward in the last 10 years. Super talented guys but somewhere between Carlos Boozer and Jabari Parker, a lot of Duke teams lost that edge of toughness.

Jabari is in a league of his own when it comes to a lack of court awareness. His ineptness makes me want to vomit. He's a nice kid and all. But, you can't be a gentleman on the court.

Paolo can sometimes be lackadaisical on defense. Feel like he's capable of being a decent defender, but yes, turning on the switch, as you say, isn't really an easy thing to do.

Boozer had a reputation of being a subpar defender on the NBA level. Never felt like he was a big liability while at Duke. We had the #1 rated defense in 2002, after all. More than likely we would have had the #1 rated defense in 2001, as well (KenPom, of coure, didn't have any numbers until 02). We won a national title with Boozer - and began the NCAAT as the #1 ranked team all three years with Boozer. Obviously Boozer wasn't the main catalyst on defense, but I always felt like he was more than adequate on the collegiate level.
 

dukedevilz

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2002
9,018
11,742
113
^His numbers are most likely skewed by the overall team defense of Duke, but Boozer was in the top 10 in defensive Win Shares in the ACC. 10th in 2001 and 3rd in 2002.

Duke was 86th in defensive rating during Jabari Parker's lone year. It was really, really rough to watch some of those games. I remember narrowly escaping from Vermont and East Carolina in the OOC season. Couldn't stop anybody on defense all season... We had the #1 rated offense, and that was the only thing that gave us a shot.
 

GE Nole

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
30,388
14,343
113
Jabari is in a league of his own when it comes to a lack of court awareness. His ineptness makes me want to vomit. He's a nice kid and all. But, you can't be a gentleman on the court.

Paolo can sometimes be lackadaisical on defense. Feel like he's capable of being a decent defender, but yes, turning on the switch, as you say, isn't really an easy thing to do.

Boozer had a reputation of being a subpar defender on the NBA level. Never felt like he was a big liability while at Duke. We had the #1 rated defense in 2002, after all. More than likely we would have had the #1 rated defense in 2001, as well (KenPom, of coure, didn't have any numbers until 02). We won a national title with Boozer - and began the NCAAT as the #1 ranked team all three years with Boozer. Obviously Boozer wasn't the main catalyst on defense, but I always felt like he was more than adequate on the collegiate level.

I was complimenting Boozer. I was saying at Duke he played with an edge and wasn’t just offensive skill. And that somewhere along the way that edge was lost in the types of guys K brought in.

Somewhere in the time frame between Boozer and Parker, because by Parker it was clear a different type of guy was being pursued and cultivated.
 

UL_1986

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2018
9,046
6,947
113
To be fair, it’s a little hard to compare a guy being asked to carry the load of a team that has basically zero finals experience, versus a guy who gets to play a supporting role on a team full of championship DNA, spearheaded by one of the best team leaders in the history of the NBA.
True, I was just giving Phil shit bc he has the inability to be objective towards any former Duke players. I really like Tatum tbh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GE Nole

dukedevilz

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2002
9,018
11,742
113
I was complimenting Boozer. I was saying at Duke he played with an edge and wasn’t just offensive skill. And that somewhere along the way that edge was lost in the types of guys K brought in.

Somewhere in the time frame between Boozer and Parker, because by Parker it was clear a different type of guy was being pursued and cultivated.

Okay, gotcha. I'd say part of the issue is we're overly reliant on freshmen - and it's hard to find offensively skilled 5-star recruits who also play with an edge.

The year before Jabari arrived on campus, we had a pretty solid team. But, we lost a lot in our three seniors, Mason Plumlee, Seth Curry, and Ryan Kelly. We beat Louisville in the regular season, and lost to them in the Elite 8. Maybe things would have been different for Jabari if he played with those three seniors, but I doubt it. Jabari was described as a reluctant superstar, someone who didn't want the spotlight. Dude had a beta mindset, when he needed to be alpha. Jabari and Rodney Hood were the leaders of that team, and both were kind of soft.

I don't know how much cultivating we can do with these guys in one year. Tyus Jones was the most clutch freshmen I've ever seen at Duke. He was making buckets in crunch time, on the road in Madison, against one of the best teams in the country - just one month into his collegiate career. That's obviously rare. I'd also say Zion was unbelievably tenacious. And we didn't win with Austin Rivers, but still appreciated his effort. Some guys have it, and some guys don't. I guess you could call it Freshmen Roulette. But, I understand why we go after these guys. Their offensive skillset is undeniably high, so you're going to prefer someone who has a much, much higher ceiling.
 

dukedevilz

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2002
9,018
11,742
113
#1 and #2 in the NBA in assist to turnover ratio. Not bad.

jones-assist-to-turnover.png
 

GE Nole

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
30,388
14,343
113
Okay, gotcha. I'd say part of the issue is we're overly reliant on freshmen - and it's hard to find offensively skilled 5-star recruits who also play with an edge.

The year before Jabari arrived on campus, we had a pretty solid team. But, we lost a lot in our three seniors, Mason Plumlee, Seth Curry, and Ryan Kelly. We beat Louisville in the regular season, and lost to them in the Elite 8. Maybe things would have been different for Jabari if he played with those three seniors, but I doubt it. Jabari was described as a reluctant superstar, someone who didn't want the spotlight. Dude had a beta mindset, when he needed to be alpha. Jabari and Rodney Hood were the leaders of that team, and both were kind of soft.

I don't know how much cultivating we can do with these guys in one year. Tyus Jones was the most clutch freshmen I've ever seen at Duke. He was making buckets in crunch time, on the road in Madison, against one of the best teams in the country - just one month into his collegiate career. That's obviously rare. I'd also say Zion was unbelievably tenacious. And we didn't win with Austin Rivers, but still appreciated his effort. Some guys have it, and some guys don't. I guess you could call it Freshmen Roulette. But, I understand why we go after these guys. Their offensive skillset is undeniably high, so you're going to prefer someone who has a much, much higher ceiling.

Yeah, I agree that there’s not a whole lot you can do in one year. That’s why I go back to the type of people K was targeting.

There are less skilled one and dones who have more of a grit and defense mentality. K seemed to not pursue those types as heavily in the last 5-7 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dukedevilz

Ingersol

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Mar 20, 2020
349
341
63
Idk man ja is special too. But i am biased being a murray state alum

My post was kind of tongue in cheek anyways because you can sort of order that list anyway you want. That being said, I do believe my order is the correct order.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Villian07

TheDude1

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2010
4,624
4,349
113
#1 and #2 in the NBA in assist to turnover ratio. Not bad.

jones-assist-to-turnover.png

Mind blowing. I think Tyus has led the league for several years running.

And at some point people are going to realize that players grow and develop, and guys who struggle in one series might still be championship level players.
 

GE Nole

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
30,388
14,343
113
I have a hard time with how much meaning I give to assist:TO ratio. Yes, at a baseline you want to see more assists than turnovers. But when I really dig in, it seems like a stat that reveals team style of play and role on the team more than it does efficiency or effectiveness.

I like assist rate better. (The percentage of assists that you’re responsible for out of all the assists that your team generates while you’re on the court.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Betacuck1

dukedevilz

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2002
9,018
11,742
113
I have a hard time with how much meaning I give to assist:TO ratio. Yes, at a baseline you want to see more assists than turnovers. But when I really dig in, it seems like a stat that reveals team style of play and role on the team more than it does efficiency or effectiveness.

I like assist rate better. (The percentage of assists that you’re responsible for out of all the assists that your team generates while you’re on the court.)

There are limitations with all statistics. Some complain about the Ast/TO ratio because it doesn't properly measure how well of a passer someone is. It doesn't differentiate between a passing turnover - and the cumulative number of turnovers (charges, clumsy teammates catching the ball, stepping out of bounds, etc). Okay, I get that. But, I was never concerned with who the most technically sound passers are - I'm concerned with ball security. And yes, a style of play can certainly affect those numbers.

But, I'd also argue that there are serious limitations with the assist rate metric. Take Oregon State's Dashawn Davis, for example. He led the Pac-12 in assists, and he also led the Pac-12 in assist rate (34.5%). It would be shocking if Davis didn't lead the Pac-12 in assist rate - the ball is always in his hands. He seriously might have the ball in his hands more than 50% of the total minutes he's on the floor. I'd be surprised if he can maintain that rate at Mississippi State. Assist rate would be more relevant to me if I also knew how often a player has the ball in their hands. A comparison of the two would be cool to analyze. Maybe that's a stat that Synergy Sports tracks?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GE Nole

GE Nole

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
30,388
14,343
113
There are limitations with all statistics. Some complain about the Ast/TO ratio because it doesn't properly measure how well of a passer someone is. It doesn't differentiate between a passing turnover - and the cumulative number of turnovers (charges, clumsy teammates catching the ball, stepping out of bounds, etc). Okay, I get that. But, I was never concerned with who the most technically sound passers are - I'm concerned with ball security. And yes, a style of play can certainly affect those numbers.

But, I'd also argue that there are serious limitations with the assist rate metric. Take Oregon State's Dashawn Davis, for example. He led the Pac-12 in assists, and he also led the Pac-12 in assist rate (34.5%). It would be shocking if Davis didn't lead the Pac-12 in assist rate - the ball is always in his hands. He seriously might have the ball in his hands more than 50% of the total minutes he's on the floor. I'd be surprised if he can maintain that rate at Mississippi State. Assist rate would be more relevant to me if I also knew how often a player has the ball in their hands. A comparison of the two would be cool to analyze. Maybe that's a stat that Synergy Sports tracks?

Yeah I think time possessing the ball is tracked by some of the real advanced systems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dukedevilz